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hi, i bought my gf a childs train ticket down to come see me since we're both 17 and don't have much money. it was an avanti west coast train and she got caught by the inspectors. she gave her details and a letter got sent to her house (i don't know what it said since her parents took it, but she told me that they had to fill it out for her since she couldn't as she's a minor).
i know it's my fault but as she used the ticket then the consequences fall on her and ive been beyond nervous that it's going to go on her record.
ive maybe done this 4/5 times, but will it be different since the ticket was bought with my details not hers? i don't mind paying a fine i just really don't want to be the reason my gf gets prosecuted, plus i really don't have much money so an idea/estimate of how much i might have to pay would be appreciated a lot... any advice would help, ive been drowning in anxiety and guilt for over a week straight now. thank you.
The reality is that they are unlikely to prosecute a person they know to be 17 for this (because of all the extra bureaucracy involved). (If they are 18 within 6 months of the offence, in theory they can wait then use the adult process but I don't think the forum has seen that happen.)
Expect a warning and a request to pay the rest of the fare (which again is difficult for them to enforce immediately).
There is a 16-17 Saver railcard available which offers a 50% discount - similar to a child fare - so it's worth looking into that. It lasts a full year from the date of purchase even if you become 18. If you buy this, you can mention it as mitigation, particularly if they do notice the previous purchases and try to get money for those too, arguing that their true loss is merely the cost of this railcard that you (presumably) didn't know about.
hi, i bought my gf a childs train ticket down to come see me since we're both 17 and don't have much money. it was an avanti west coast train and she got caught by the inspectors. she gave her details and a letter got sent to her house (i don't know what it said since her parents took it, but she told me that they had to fill it out for her since she couldn't as she's a minor).
i know it's my fault but as she used the ticket then the consequences fall on her and ive been beyond nervous that it's going to go on her record.
ive maybe done this 4/5 times, but will it be different since the ticket was bought with my details not hers? i don't mind paying a fine i just really don't want to be the reason my gf gets prosecuted, plus i really don't have much money so an idea/estimate of how much i might have to pay would be appreciated a lot... any advice would help, ive been drowning in anxiety and guilt for over a week straight now. thank you.
Knowing that will help us give an indication of the sort of money Avanti will likely want paying to resolve this.
As you are both 17 you should be looking at getting the 16-17 saver railcard as mentioned. Then you get half fare tickets legitimately for the duration of the railcard validity.
Knowing that will help us give an indication of the sort of money Avanti will likely want paying to resolve this.
As you are both 17 you should be looking at getting the 16-17 saver railcard as mentioned. Then you get half fare tickets legitimately for the duration of the railcard validity.
Ok. It would be good if her parents got some advice from here on how best to respond to the letter in respect of their daughter in order to help get best outcome achievable.
Any chance of you or your gf persuading them to have a look at this thread do you think?
Knowing that will help us give an indication of the sort of money Avanti will likely want paying to resolve this.
As you are both 17 you should be looking at getting the 16-17 saver railcard as mentioned. Then you get half fare tickets legitimately for the duration of the railcard validity.
Just what fare type might Avanti claim to be the unpaid fare for this particular journey? Maybe an Off Peak Single (route 'via Carlisle'), perhaps, if someone was actually travelling via Carlisle?
Just what fare type might Avanti claim to be the unpaid fare for this particular journey? Maybe an Off Peak Single (route 'via Carlisle'), perhaps, if someone was actually travelling via Carlisle?
Just what fare type might Avanti claim to be the unpaid fare for this particular journey? Maybe an Off Peak Single (route 'via Carlisle'), perhaps, if someone was actually travelling via Carlisle?
it was via carlisle! it was a connection from glasgow-carlisle, then carlisle-preston. she got caught in lancaster. idk if this changes anything but it might be useful information? it says on the ticket 'advanced single' and the route as 'awc&connections', i think since the first train from glasgow was actually a scotrail train. does that mean they can only claim from carlistle-preston, or can they still claim the entire trip?
it was via carlisle! it was a connection from glasgow-carlisle, then carlisle-preston. she got caught in lancaster. idk if this changes anything but it might be useful information? it says on the ticket 'advanced single' and the route as 'awc&connections', i think since the first train from glasgow was actually a scotrail train. does that mean they can only claim from carlistle-preston, or can they still claim the entire trip?
it was via carlisle! it was a connection from glasgow-carlisle, then carlisle-preston. she got caught in lancaster. idk if this changes anything but it might be useful information? it says on the ticket 'advanced single' and the route as 'awc&connections', i think since the first train from glasgow was actually a scotrail train. does that mean they can only claim from carlistle-preston, or can they still claim the entire trip?
I guess it would help to know what's in the letter that's been sent - but I appreciate you have not seen that yourself.
Avanti could adopt different approaches to the sum they consider is owed
- but what they are most likely to do is to seek to get a payment for a new ticket at the most expensive fare for the journey that they can - this would be the Anytime Single for Glasgow - Preston, which as @John R says is £73 adult single
- anything cheaper than that would be a win for you / your GF. They would typically not make an allowance for the sum already paid either. Again if they do its another win.
- And - they might trawl the ticket buying records associated with the ticket used and find the other similar tickets bought and ask questions about those / want paying for them... (so you need to prepare for that) - although if they ask you, you didn't use them so you did not commit any offence yourself
You say that's 4/5 other occasions - It would be wise to log into your account and check exactly how many instances of buying child fares for someone over 16 (either yourself or your gf) because this is what they will do - don't deleted the account tho - they can still access it anyway and it looks suspicious to do so too.
- Alternatively they could (given the person is under 18) adopt a different approach at the other end of the costs scale and ask for the 50% of the fare not paid (ie the adult rate) of the ticket actually purchased - given you say it was an Advance Single I suspect this is a lot less than £73
- Or they could maybe ask for an Off Peak fare if the travel was actually taken at an Off Peak time (£51.60)
Clearly most of these are not cheap and if they ask for 4 or 5 of them it will add up - ideally you can discuss with your gf and their parents because if they are being asked for the money they will probably have to pay it - so ideally you need to think about how you can offer to pay it back to them, even if that is in instalments.
If it got to the option of some sort of fine then it's not going to be the Penalty Fare type sums (£100) that you see on a poster at the station - a fine would likely be more than the sum of the tickets evaded.
I guess it would help to know what's in the letter that's been sent - but I appreciate you have not seen that yourself.
Avanti could adopt different approaches to the sum they consider is owed
- but what they are most likely to do is to seek to get a payment for a new ticket at the most expensive fare for the journey that they can - this would be the Anytime Single for Glasgow - Preston, which as @John R says is £73 adult single
- anything cheaper than that would be a win for you / your GF. They would typically not make an allowance for the sum already paid either. Again if they do its another win.
- And - they might trawl the ticket buying records associated with the ticket used and find the other similar tickets bought and ask questions about those / want paying for them... (so you need to prepare for that) - although if they ask you, you didn't use them so you did not commit any offence yourself
You say that's 4/5 other occasions - It would be wise to log into your account and check exactly how many instances of buying child fares for someone over 16 (either yourself or your gf) because this is what they will do - don't deleted the account tho - they can still access it anyway and it looks suspicious to do so too.
- Alternatively they could (given the person is under 18) adopt a different approach at the other end of the costs scale and ask for the 50% of the fare not paid (ie the adult rate) of the ticket actually purchased - given you say it was an Advance Single I suspect this is a lot less than £73
- Or they could maybe ask for an Off Peak fare if the travel was actually taken at an Off Peak time (£51.60)
Clearly most of these are not cheap and if they ask for 4 or 5 of them it will add up - ideally you can discuss with your gf and their parents because if they are being asked for the money they will probably have to pay it - so ideally you need to think about how you can offer to pay it back to them, even if that is in instalments.
If it got to the option of some sort of fine then it's not going to be the Penalty Fare type sums (£100) that you see on a poster at the station - a fine would likely be more than the sum of the tickets evaded.
i dont have a trainline or mytrainpal account where theyve all been bought, ive always logged in as guest because im lazy but it has been my details every time (my email, my bank ect) so i cant check the exact details. does that mean theyll still be able to find all the previous incidents?
i dont have a trainline or mytrainpal account where theyve all been bought, ive always logged in as guest because im lazy but it has been my details every time (my email, my bank ect) so i cant check the exact details. does that mean theyll still be able to find all the previous incidents?
I'm not actually sure on the answer to that - but presume they could if they really want to look - eg via the common payment method or e-mail address used. Whether they will actually try to do this is another question.
I'm not actually sure on the answer to that - but presume they could if they really want to look - eg via the common payment method or e-mail address used. Whether they will actually try to do this is another question.
I just tested it and you don’t need to validate your email address to checkout through guest. So really anyone could use someone else’s email to buy tickets via guest checkout.
I'm not actually sure on the answer to that - but presume they could if they really want to look - eg via the common payment method or e-mail address used. Whether they will actually try to do this is another question.
either way, it's likely that they won't prosecute? that's what im scared of the most, especially since my gfs birthday is in october and mine is this month making it easier for them to wait and push her through the adult systems. honestly it's just making me so anxious that i don't know what to do with myself because it's my fault and she could get prosecuted for it despite being innocent.
I just tested it and you don’t need to validate your email address to checkout through guest. So really anyone could use someone else’s email to buy tickets via guest checkout.
Thanks - tho I suppose that wouldn't stop them making paying for those suspected tickets a condition of an out of court settlement, allowing them to threaten court action for the one instance they caught the passenger red handed.
That said as mentioned / explained up thread by another forum member the fact that the passenger was under 18 means court isn't that likely anyway - which is hopefully re-assuring to the OP in this instance.
I could not find many cases on the forum involving Avanti - but one I did find had an uploaded letter from ITAL starting that ITAL act on behalf of Avanti for fares enforcement.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
either way, it's likely that they won't prosecute? that's what im scared of the most, especially since my gfs birthday is in october and mine is this month making it easier for them to wait and push her through the adult systems. honestly it's just making me so anxious that i don't know what to do with myself because it's my fault and she could get prosecuted for it despite being innocent.
well they may threaten it but even then it's usually in the train companies interest to settle out of court (they get to keep all the settlement the money - whereas in court the court fine goes to the court) so it's unlikely - but it helps if the person dealing with the letter is aware of the best way to respond and engage with it to achieve the outcome desired - ie not letting it get to court*.
It really would be helpful to see whatever has been sent to the gf / her parents - because that would help us get a clearer idea of what is being said by Avanti or possibly ITAL acting for Avanti
* In case you have not seen it the usual general advice given on here (which would apply to someone over 18 for sure) gives an outline of how to respond to them to try and avoid court - I'm going to pots it below so you can have aq look over it - the general approach is worth being aware of - and if needed, making use of - here it is:
Firstly, you committed a criminal offence by travelling with an invalid ticket and railway companies are entitled to prosecute you in the Magistrates Court if they want to. The good news is they will normally offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with them and who haven't come to their attention before.
Next, what happens is the railway company will write to you. The letter will go to the address that you gave them / on any of your ID they checked so you need to be able to access hard copy post at that address as they often send things that way (but also check e-mail and spam). It is extremely important that you reply, and you'll only have a limited time to do so (often 14 days from the date on their communication).
When you receive the letter post a redacted copy of it in this thread, along with your draft reply and forum members will proof read it for you. You'll find lots of example letters you can use in this section of the forum but the reply basically needs to mention:
- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident and will not do this again
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the railway company’s administrative costs in dealing with the matter
The railway will probably offer you an out of court settlement. Expect to have to pay the cost of the fare for the journey you made at the full Anytime rate with no credit given for the invalid ticket you purchased. In addition they will charge an admin fee, typically £150. They will also audit your online ticket purchase history and if this shows you've purchased other tickets that were not valid (eg railcard discounted tickets when you did not have a valid railcard, or tickets for only part of the journey, or tickets bought after boarding the train you travelled on) they will probably factor the cost of these journeys into the settlement offer. Depending on how many journeys you've made over the period concerned this could end up being expensive.
Settlements usually have to be paid in full within a few days of them being offered so if money is tight you might want to think about how you will raise the sum required at short notice.
Thanks - tho I suppose that wouldn't stop them making paying for those suspected tickets a condition of an out of court settlement, allowing them to threaten court action for the one instance they caught the passenger red handed.
That said as mentioned / explained up thread by another forum member the fact that the passenger was under 18 means court isn't that likely anyway - which is hopefully re-assuring to the OP in this instance.
I could not find many cases on the forum involving Avanti - but one I did find had an uploaded letter from ITAL starting that ITAL act on behalf of Avanti for fares enforcement.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
well they may threaten it but even then it's usually in the train companies interest to settle out of court (they get to keep all the settlement the money - whereas in court the court fine goes to the court) so it's unlikely - but it helps if the person dealing with the letter is aware of the best way to respond and engage with it to achieve the outcome desired - ie not letting it get to court*.
It really would be helpful to see whatever has been sent to the gf / her parents - because that would help us get a clearer idea of what is being said by Avanti or possibly ITAL acting for Avanti
* In case you have not seen it the usual general advice given on here (which would apply to someone over 18 for sure) gives an outline of how to respond to them to try and avoid court - I'm going to pots it below so you can have aq look over it - the general approach is worth being aware of - and if needed, making use of - here it is:
Firstly, you committed a criminal offence by travelling with an invalid ticket and railway companies are entitled to prosecute you in the Magistrates Court if they want to. The good news is they will normally offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with them and who haven't come to their attention before.
Next, what happens is the railway company will write to you. The letter will go to the address that you gave them / on any of your ID they checked so you need to be able to access hard copy post at that address as they often send things that way (but also check e-mail and spam). It is extremely important that you reply, and you'll only have a limited time to do so (often 14 days from the date on their communication).
When you receive the letter post a redacted copy of it in this thread, along with your draft reply and forum members will proof read it for you. You'll find lots of example letters you can use in this section of the forum but the reply basically needs to mention:
- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident and will not do this again
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the railway company’s administrative costs in dealing with the matter
The railway will probably offer you an out of court settlement. Expect to have to pay the cost of the fare for the journey you made at the full Anytime rate with no credit given for the invalid ticket you purchased. In addition they will charge an admin fee, typically £150. They will also audit your online ticket purchase history and if this shows you've purchased other tickets that were not valid (eg railcard discounted tickets when you did not have a valid railcard, or tickets for only part of the journey, or tickets bought after boarding the train you travelled on) they will probably factor the cost of these journeys into the settlement offer. Depending on how many journeys you've made over the period concerned this could end up being expensive.
Settlements usually have to be paid in full within a few days of them being offered so if money is tight you might want to think about how you will raise the sum required at short notice.
im sorry i cant get the letter, but i asked my gf again for as much information as she can remember on what it said, though it was a week ago now so she doesnt remember the exact wording.
she told me it said something along the lines of theres been an incident, respond to this letter within 1-2 days or it'll be worse ect. she said it was addressed to her parent/guardian and not to her, and that all it asked for was her parents information and nothing else. she said she would send me a picture of it, but its been sent back through the post to them, so thats all i know.
also, in regards to the fine, im almost certain my dad will pay it in full for me and i can pay him back so its not an issue, especially since i turn 18 soon and can access my child trust fund which will make up the cost.
im sorry i cant get the letter, but i asked my gf again for as much information as she can remember on what it said, though it was a week ago now so she doesnt remember the exact wording.
she told me it said something along the lines of theres been an incident, respond to this letter within 1-2 days or it'll be worse ect. she said it was addressed to her parent/guardian and not to her, and that all it asked for was her parents information and nothing else.
What do you mean by this? Apols I don't understand - do you mean they replied but it came back undelivered?
or do you mean parents returned it to Avanti before it was possible for your gf to take a picture of it? EDIT - I think this is what you mean
As an aside it may be worth saying to your gf for her to tell her parents to keep a copy of everything to do with this - eg if they fill something in before sending it off they should keep a copy for their own records just in case things go missing or they need to know or check what was said at a future point in the process.
so thats all i know.
also, in regards to the fine, im almost certain my dad will pay it in full for me and i can pay him back so its not an issue, especially since i turn 18 soon and can access my child trust fund which will make up the cost.
OK - that's good - technically if Avanti agree to sort it out without court etc it's not a fine - it's likely to be the sum of money (the fare) they regard as having been evaded, which they want paying - plus some fee for the admin they are putting into sorting this out and getting the money from the passenger.
Might have been an initial letter seeking to just check personal details then
What do you mean by this? Apols I don't understand - do you mean they replied but it came back undelivered?
or do you mean parents returned it to Avanti before it was possible for your gf to take a picture of it?
As an aside it may be worth saying to your gf for her to tell her parents to keep a copy of everything to do with this - eg if they fill something in before sending it off they should keep a copy for their own records just in case things go missing or they need to know or check what was said at a future point in the process.
OK - that's good - technically if Avanti agree to sort it out without court etc it's not a fine - it's likely to be the sum of money (the fare) they regard as having been evaded, which they want paying - plus some fee for the admin they are putting into sorting this out and getting the money from the passenger.
im sorry i don't know how to quote, but yes the letter was sent to my gfs parents, then filled out by them and send back to avanti in the post as instructed. ill make sure to ask her if she can take photos in the future if anything else comes through. im hopeful that since they've asked for her parents details that means they are putting her through the system as a child, and hopefully the money i owe will be told to me soon so i can just put this all behind me...
and yes i know it's not a fine my apologies, it's just my default word for money ill owe instead of the typical penalty fine. for now there's nothing else i can do but wait and try not to let the anxiety get to me too much, but thank you to everyone in this thread for all the kind advice and help...
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