Caught not having tapped in

[JDFans]

Dear Forum

I have been caught not having tapped in my contactless and got details taken. Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks.

Last Wednesday morning I took a direct train to Elephant and Castle from the south (I am sorry I do not feel very comfortable disclosing which station, but it was less than 30 minutes journey time within London). There is no barrier at the origin station. When I arrived at the station I was sort of absent-minded and forgot to tap in my contactless. When I reached Elephant & Castle and walked down the stairs I saw lots of ticket inspectors and police. I realised I had not tapped in and panicked.

Wanting to buy some time to consider what to do, I turned back and walked back upstairs. On the top of the stairs, I was stopped by a plainclothes who was already interviewing another person. He turned around and asked me "Why are you turning around? Where are you travelling from?" I knew I was caught red handed and there was no point in lying, so I answered his questions and told him that I forgot to tap in. Since he was busy interviewing another person, he found his colleaque to deal with me.

As soon as he came over, I immediately explained to him I forgot to tap in and was really sorry. Then he said he would put me under caution. I did not understand what it meant. He asked me what I would have travelled with. I said contactless and he asked to see it as well as my ID. I showed it to him and my diving license. He copied my details down on paper and asked me to sign it. I asked if I could pay for the ticket now and he said, "No, ticket should have been bought before travel."

I asked what would happen now. He said, "I am gonna write a report and send to the company. They will send you a letter asking your version of the story in the next month or so." I asked if they will take me to court. He said, "Highly unlikely if you have not done it before". I asked if there will be a fine. He said, "Yes if they take you to court". Then I asked, "If they do not take me to court, will there still be a fine?" He said, "That I don't know". Throughout the conversation I repeatedly apologised and told him it was a careless mistake. The whole process was done on paper and was not very long, probable less than than three minutes.

I could overhear the other plainclothes asking the other guy more complicated questions, such as where he lived and how long he had lived there. In the end I was given a slip of paper and told that it could get me through the many inspectors downstairs. When I went down, nobody even bothered to stop me or ask me to show anything. I just walked past. I know the fact that I tuned back from the stairs could be used as evidence that I mindfully wanted to avoid being checked. But the second planclothes would not have seen it. But I also would not know if the first plainclothes would tell him subsequently.

This has happened to me once before at the same station in 2018, but without much consequences. Before I reached the stairs I was asked to show my ticket, which I had not tapped in. I did not say anything and took out my contactless. He scanned it with his machine and then let me go. The next day I checked my online account it only showed "Unknown starting point -> Failed ticket inspection -> Elephant & Castle" I was charge the maximum daily fare and the card was blocked.

I called the customer service and they could unblock it for me and I could continue to travel with it. The card expired in the following year so I am not sure if the record has been kept. Since 2018 I have had four other inspections and I passed all of them, two of them happened this year, until I was caught this time.

I know the letter would take a month or so to arrive. But it is such a torture not knowing what will happen for such a long time. Here are my questions:
• Would I get a Byelaw or a RoRA? Any chance of a right away settlement?
• Would the 2018 incidence add to the decision?
• My work is flexible, so my contactless travel history does not have a fixed pattern. Will they say, "This looks a bit weird, there must be something wrong"?
• Was I not given a Penalty Fare because I turned around?
• I will buy a season ticket now to avoid forgetting to tap in again, will that help if I mention this and enclosed the receipt in my reply letter?

Again any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks so much.

 

[AlterEgo]

• I will buy a season ticket now to avoid forgetting to tap in again, will that help if I mention this and enclosed the receipt in my reply letter?

There's lots to unpack here but the obvious question is, given that a season ticket gives you a significant discount, why don't you have one already if you travel often enough to warrant one?

 

[Huntergreed]

Dear Forum

I have been caught not having tapped in my contactless and got details taken. Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks.

Last Wednesday morning I took a direct train to Elephant and Castle from the south (I am sorry I do not feel very comfortable disclosing which station, but it was less than 30 minutes journey time within London). There is no barrier at the origin station. When I arrived at the station I was sort of absent-minded and forgot to tap in my contactless. When I reached Elephant & Castle and walked down the stairs I saw lots of ticket inspectors and police. I realised I had not tapped in and panicked.

Wanting to buy some time to consider what to do, I turned back and walked back upstairs. On the top of the stairs, I was stopped by a plainclothes who was already interviewing another person. He turned around and asked me "Why are you turning around? Where are you travelling from?" I knew I was caught red handed and there was no point in lying, so I answered his questions and told him that I forgot to tap in. Since he was busy interviewing another person, he found his colleaque to deal with me.

As soon as he came over, I immediately explained to him I forgot to tap in and was really sorry. Then he said he would put me under caution. I did not understand what it meant. He asked me what I would have travelled with. I said contactless and he asked to see it as well as my ID. I showed it to him and my diving license. He copied my details down on paper and asked me to sign it. I asked if I could pay for the ticket now and he said, "No, ticket should have been bought before travel."

I asked what would happen now. He said, "I am gonna write a report and send to the company. They will send you a letter asking your version of the story in the next month or so." I asked if they will take me to court. He said, "Highly unlikely if you have not done it before". I asked if there will be a fine. He said, "Yes if they take you to court". Then I asked, "If they do not take me to court, will there still be a fine?" He said, "That I don't know". Throughout the conversation I repeatedly apologised and told him it was a careless mistake. The whole process was done on paper and was not very long, probable less than than three minutes.

I could overhear the other plainclothes asking the other guy more complicated questions, such as where he lived and how long he had lived there. In the end I was given a slip of paper and told that it could get me through the many inspectors downstairs. When I went down, nobody even bothered to stop me or ask me to show anything. I just walked past. I know the fact that I tuned back from the stairs could be used as evidence that I mindfully wanted to avoid being checked. But the second planclothes would not have seen it. But I also would not know if the first plainclothes would tell him subsequently.

This has happened to me once before at the same station in 2018, but without much consequences. Before I reached the stairs I was asked to show my ticket, which I had not tapped in. I did not say anything and took out my contactless. He scanned it with his machine and then let me go. The next day I checked my online account it only showed "Unknown starting point -> Failed ticket inspection -> Elephant & Castle" I was charge the maximum daily fare and the card was blocked.

I called the customer service and they could unblock it for me and I could continue to travel with it. The card expired in the following year so I am not sure if the record has been kept. Since 2018 I have had four other inspections and I passed all of them, two of them happened this year, until I was caught this time.

Welcome to the forum! Thanks for outlining the details of the incident.

Normally (as I understand it), cards are only blocked after 3 “incomplete journeys” (where you fail to either touch in or touch out). Are you sure you’ve only done this once before?

I know the letter would take a month or so to arrive. But it is such a torture not knowing what will happen for such a long time. Here are my questions:
• Would I get a Byelaw or a RoRA? Any chance of a right away settlement?

Hard to say. TfL are generally one of the less pragmatic companies and tend to favour prosecution more heavily as an outcome. That said, it is still possible to achieve a settlement and it has been done in the past. The best advice I would have would be to approach responding to the letter (when it arrives) constructively and positively. Apologise for your error and offer to pay the outstanding fare and TFL’s administrative costs in dealing with the matter.

• Would the 2018 incidence add to the decision?

It’s possible - although I’m not sure how long TfL keep records for.

• My work is flexible, so my contactless travel history does not have a fixed pattern. Will they say, "This looks a bit weird, there must be something wrong"?

I would imagine there are many people with flexible working/travel patterns in London so I wouldn’t be overly concerned about this. Provided you have tapped in and out on all these previous occasions this shouldn’t be an issue.

• Was I not given a Penalty Fare because I turned around?

Possibly. They may argue that turning around showed intent to avoid paying for your journey and this may treat you more harshly, but it’s hard to tell.

If you hadn’t turned around, I doubt you would’ve been found out at that point (as I don’t believe TfL contactless readers are able to establish whether a card has been “touched in” or not at that moment and it is only picked up when the data is sent back to the office at the end of that day, as I understand it).

• I will buy a season ticket now to avoid forgetting to tap in again, will that help if I mention this and enclosed the receipt in my reply letter?

It may. As @AlterEgo points out, if a season ticket is suitable for you as you have been travelling regularly since (at least) 2018, then it does seem the obvious question that they will ask.

Again any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks so much.

Once you have drafted a response to the letter, post it on here and we will offer advice/amendments before you send it off to TfL.

 

[JDFans]

Normally (as I understand it), cards are only blocked after 3 “incomplete journeys” (where you fail to either touch in or touch out). Are you sure you’ve only done this once before?

I have had other incomplete journeys. But as long as there is no ticket inspection in between, you could login and added back the missing tap in or tap out station. This is allowed up to 3 times a month, according to TfL website.

Hard to say. TfL are generally one of the less pragmatic companies and tend to favour prosecution more heavily as an outcome.

I think I am dealing with Thameslink not TfL? Because it happened at the train station not the underground station and all of the trains there are run by Thameslink.

It may. As @AlterEgo points out, if a season ticket is suitable for you as you have been travelling regularly since (at least) 2018, then it does seem the obvious question that they will ask.

I don’t go to work everyday. Sometimes only once a week. So season ticket is actually more expensive, not by a lot tho, but could save my life next tome if I forget to tap in. Of course I would not want them to ask more unnecessary questions, shall I leave the bit about season tickets out of the letter?

 

[Titfield]

I would suggest being very careful how you respond to the letter when it eventually arrives. I would strongly suggest that you post a draft here, await comment and revise the letter before sending to the TOC. Some of the comments you have made to date may do your position more harm than good if made to the TOC.

 

[AlterEgo]

I don’t go to work everyday. Sometimes only once a week. So season ticket is actually more expensive, not by a lot tho, but could save my life next tome if I forget to tap in. Of course I would not want them to ask more unnecessary questions, shall I leave the bit about season tickets out of the letter?

Your problem is that most people don't forget to tap in and out.

You turned around at Elephant and Castle because you didn't want to be caught not paying your fare, and Thameslink are unlikely to believe you only forgot to tap once and were caught on the one occasion you forgot. Elephant and Castle is frequently blockaded by revenue protection because a high number of people don't tap out here as there is no barrier, and like you they travel from stations with no barrier either.

You were likely not given a Penalty Fare because it does not look to them like you only just realised at the barrier you hadn't tapped in at the beginning (who, honestly, remembers if they have tapped in or not?), but rather it looks more like you knew you hadn't tapped in and that you were now in trouble as you couldn't exit unchallenged.

 

[Haywain]

I think I am dealing with Thameslink not TfL? Because it happened at the train station not the underground station and all of the trains there are run by Thameslink.

I think it's a safe bet that it will be Thameslink.

 

[JDFans]

Your problem is that most people don't forget to tap in and out.

You turned around at Elephant and Castle because you didn't want to be caught not paying your fare, and Thameslink are unlikely to believe you only forgot to tap once and were caught on the one occasion you forgot. Elephant and Castle is frequently blockaded by revenue protection because a high number of people don't tap out here as there is no barrier, and like you they travel from stations with no barrier either.

You were likely not given a Penalty Fare because it does not look to them like you only just realised at the barrier you hadn't tapped in at the beginning (who, honestly, remembers if they have tapped in or not?), but rather it looks more like you knew you hadn't tapped in and that you were now in trouble as you couldn't exit unchallenged.

If they have that suspicion will they be less likely to settle out of court or more likely to give me a Rora?

 

[Starmill]

If they have that suspicion will they be less likely to settle out of court or more likely to give me a Rora?

It's far more likely you will be able to settle the case, so try not to worry about that too much until you hear. What you can do before hearing is try to focus on having the money available to pay a settlement of at least several hundred pounds promptly. Also make sure that you never board a train without either touching in or holding a ticket again. Try to get into the habit of checking yourself for this right as you are on the platform, whatever option you choose.

 

[MikeWh]

I think it's unlikely that the previous issue will affect this one because it's a different physical card. It's a real shame that you didn't just let them scan your card and then touch out. You'd have got a failed revenue check but that would have been that.

My understanding is that it is 3 revenue checks failed before the card will be blocked. There are other reasons for blocking a card, like TfL failing to recover a days charge from your bank, but they are cleared once the debt is paid.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

We need to know which train company the staff who stopped you were working for, I suspect it's Thameslink rather than Transport for London. The other thing I'm going to say now is I don't think your story is very convincing. You started from an unbarriered station in south London and travelled to Elephant & Castle, which I believe is also unbarriered (it was the last time I travelled there), my suspicion is you were hoping for a free ride.

The good news, if you are dealing with Govia Thameslink Railway, is they are one of the more pragmatic companies when it comes to dealing with this sort of thing. TfL are less forgiving when it comes to this sort of thing and if their staff stopped you then you're potentially facing a Bylaw prosecution.

If GTR are dealing with the case you will be sent a letter from their Prosecutions Department. The letter will typically take a few weeks to arrive but it shouldn't take longer than six months. The letter will say that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events before deciding how to proceed. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. GTR are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company would be well within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court.

An potential aggravating factor is that you have had a failed revenue inspection before although I don't think that will adversely impact your chances of obtaining a settlement in this case

If you are offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be around £150 plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter once it arrives (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[MikeWh]

I'll just add a little more background. A failed revenue inspection is handled by TfL regardless of where the check took place. It does not get passed to the train company. Each card or device is a separate object in the database, even if the 16 digit number is the same. I don't believe that revenue checks get carried over between cards, not least because you could get 3 checks at once if 3 people are using different devices or cards at the same time.

So if your previous revenue check was on a now expired card it is unlikely to be relevant to this case, especially as this case is actually nothing to do with the contactless system because you admitted not having validated your card.

 

[Edsmith]

I've seen these ticket checks before at Elephant & Castle and they seem to catch a few people off every train, police usually have a dog for drugs detection.

 

[Starmill]

So if your previous revenue check was on a now expired card it is unlikely to be relevant to this case, especially as this case is actually nothing to do with the contactless system because you admitted not having validated your card.

Indeed. Unfortunately it will now be dealt with as a case of ticketless travel, as the OP has already admitted to having no ticket when they should have done. On the bright side there's every hope of a settlement here.

 

[Wizjager]

Dear Forum

I have been caught not having tapped in my contactless and got details taken. Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks.

Last Wednesday morning I took a direct train to Elephant and Castle from the south (I am sorry I do not feel very comfortable disclosing which station, but it was less than 30 minutes journey time within London). There is no barrier at the origin station. When I arrived at the station I was sort of absent-minded and forgot to tap in my contactless. When I reached Elephant & Castle and walked down the stairs I saw lots of ticket inspectors and police. I realised I had not tapped in and panicked.

Wanting to buy some time to consider what to do, I turned back and walked back upstairs. On the top of the stairs, I was stopped by a plainclothes who was already interviewing another person. He turned around and asked me "Why are you turning around? Where are you travelling from?" I knew I was caught red handed and there was no point in lying, so I answered his questions and told him that I forgot to tap in. Since he was busy interviewing another person, he found his colleaque to deal with me.

As soon as he came over, I immediately explained to him I forgot to tap in and was really sorry. Then he said he would put me under caution. I did not understand what it meant. He asked me what I would have travelled with. I said contactless and he asked to see it as well as my ID. I showed it to him and my diving license. He copied my details down on paper and asked me to sign it. I asked if I could pay for the ticket now and he said, "No, ticket should have been bought before travel."

I asked what would happen now. He said, "I am gonna write a report and send to the company. They will send you a letter asking your version of the story in the next month or so." I asked if they will take me to court. He said, "Highly unlikely if you have not done it before". I asked if there will be a fine. He said, "Yes if they take you to court". Then I asked, "If they do not take me to court, will there still be a fine?" He said, "That I don't know". Throughout the conversation I repeatedly apologised and told him it was a careless mistake. The whole process was done on paper and was not very long, probable less than than three minutes.

I could overhear the other plainclothes asking the other guy more complicated questions, such as where he lived and how long he had lived there. In the end I was given a slip of paper and told that it could get me through the many inspectors downstairs. When I went down, nobody even bothered to stop me or ask me to show anything. I just walked past. I know the fact that I tuned back from the stairs could be used as evidence that I mindfully wanted to avoid being checked. But the second planclothes would not have seen it. But I also would not know if the first plainclothes would tell him subsequently.

This has happened to me once before at the same station in 2018, but without much consequences. Before I reached the stairs I was asked to show my ticket, which I had not tapped in. I did not say anything and took out my contactless. He scanned it with his machine and then let me go. The next day I checked my online account it only showed "Unknown starting point -> Failed ticket inspection -> Elephant & Castle" I was charge the maximum daily fare and the card was blocked.

I called the customer service and they could unblock it for me and I could continue to travel with it. The card expired in the following year so I am not sure if the record has been kept. Since 2018 I have had four other inspections and I passed all of them, two of them happened this year, until I was caught this time.

I know the letter would take a month or so to arrive. But it is such a torture not knowing what will happen for such a long time. Here are my questions:
• Would I get a Byelaw or a RoRA? Any chance of a right away settlement?
• Would the 2018 incidence add to the decision?
• My work is flexible, so my contactless travel history does not have a fixed pattern. Will they say, "This looks a bit weird, there must be something wrong"?
• Was I not given a Penalty Fare because I turned around?
• I will buy a season ticket now to avoid forgetting to tap in again, will that help if I mention this and enclosed the receipt in my reply letter?

Again any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks so much.

Hi jd, I was the person who he was asking these question to and you came up us.

 

[JDFans]

Hi jd, I was the person who he was asking these question to and you came up us.

Hi Wizjager

Yes I read your posts on another thread and thought it might have been you.

 

[Wizjager]

Hi Wizjager

Thank you for assisting me through the process that day and answering all my questions. I hope you did not write a report too bad about me and I would not have to go to court.

No, I was the person that was being interviewed by ticket inspector

 

[Hadders]

No, I was the person that was being interviewed by ticket inspector

We've got two threads where two separate people are seeking advice haveing been caught in the same revenue operation.

Don't think we've had that before. WHat are the chances of that?

 

[Titfield]

We've got two threads where two separate people are seeking advice haveing been caught in the same revenue operation.

Don't think we've had that before. WHat are the chances of that?

About the same as winning the National Lottery?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I must say I think the OPs story shows that revenue protection have become a bit heavy handed.

So what he forgot to tap into a station without barriers? I remember at least one time forgetting to tap out a station that doesn't, and the effect is that I get charged a penalty afterwards, but I just call TfL and they usually sort it out and refund the difference. OP would just have to live with having an extra high-fare next time he taps in.

So the RPO pounced on him for turning around and the sight of a dozen RPOs - who wouldn't in that situation? I don't see why he couldn't have just told OP to tap out and live with the penalty charge

 

[Edsmith]

I must say I think the OPs story shows that revenue protection have become a bit heavy handed.

So what he forgot to tap into a station without barriers? I remember at least one time forgetting to tap out a station that doesn't, and the effect is that I get charged a penalty afterwards, but I just call TfL and they usually sort it out and refund the difference. OP would just have to live with having an extra high-fare next time he taps in.

So the RPO pounced on him for turning around and the sight of a dozen RPOs - who wouldn't in that situation? I don't see why he couldn't have just told OP to tap out and live with the penalty charge

I suspect they must hear that "forgot to tap in" story so many times, Elephant & Castle is the closest station to Central London without ticket gates and probably a favourite destination for fare dodgers.

 

[Wizjager]

I suspect they must hear that "forgot to tap in" story so many times, Elephant & Castle is the closest station to Central London without ticket gates and probably a favourite destination for fare dodgers.

It’s most fare dodgers, because how I was question was quite different from everyone.

 

[daodao]

So what he forgot to tap into a station without barriers? I remember at least one time forgetting to tap out a station that doesn't, and the effect is that I get charged a penalty afterwards,

Forgetting to tap out is a different situation from "forgetting" to tap in and irrelevant to this thread - it is not fare evasion and just leads to a maximum or penalty fare being charged.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Forgetting to tap out is a different situation from "forgetting" to tap in and irrelevant to this thread - it is not fare evasion and just leads to a maximum or penalty fare being charged.

I haven't tapped in before though, say because my oyster didn't make contact with the reader but the gates were still open from the person who went before a few seconds before me - so it looked like I did. I got charged a penalty on that occasion.

 

[Snow1964]

Forgetting to tap out is a different situation from "forgetting" to tap in and irrelevant to this thread - it is not fare evasion and just leads to a maximum or penalty fare being charged.

It will sometimes be automatically adjusted if you make a return journey tapping both in and out.

But not tapping in is travelling without a valid ticket equivalent. Effectively can't be distinguished from someone who would walk out other end if no barriers or inspection there too.

 

[Haywain]

Effectively can't be distinguished from someone who would walk out other end if no barriers or inspection there too.

And turning round on seeing inspectors is a good indication that walking out is what was planned

 

[Cdd89]

Elephant and Castle is frequently blockaded by revenue protection because a high number of people don't tap out here as there is no barrier, and like you they travel from stations with no barrier either.

I’ve never seen one despite using that station almost daily. That leads me to believe they’re quite infrequent — which might also explain the heavy handed approach, as there may be suspicion that people have been getting away with it for months or years.

 

[JDFans]

Hi everyone. I have finally received a letter (attached). Here is my respond. Any advice is much appreciated. Thanks.

---

Dear Sir / Madam

I am writing this letter to offer my sincere and heartfelt apology to Thameslink for not having a valid ticket while I travelled. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to explain to you what has happened.

On the morning of 3 August, I did not touch in my contactless card before I boarded the train at XXX. As I alighted and walked towards the exit, an inspector approached and asked to see my ticket. I admitted that I did not have a ticket and cooperated with the inspector.

Please allow me to apologise for what has happened. Through this letter I would like to let you know that I have learned the lesson the hard way and I promise this will not be repeated in the future. Since this incident, I have diligently ensured that I either tap in or have a valid ticket before every journey.

I understand that people who travel without ticket place a significant burden on Thameslink in terms of time, money and resources. I want to hold myself accountable to what has happened and make amends by paying the full amount due for my travel plus any costs incurred to you in dealing with this case.

I kindly request that we resolve this matter without the need for court action. Your understanding and consideration in this matter are greatly appreciated.

Thank you for your time.

Yours faithfully

 

[30907]

The letter uses the wording of Byelaw 18.2, which means that GTR are not seeking to use RoRA.

Your reply seems OK to me in those circumstances as GTR are not showing interest in the details you described at the beginning.

 

[Hadders]

I think the letter is generally ok. Please do let us know how you get on.