Catering on Trains

[Rick1984]

why do trains carry so little food? Our East Coast train started its journey with one ham and cheese toastie so my wife and I had to share!

 

[Gemz91]

Do a Ryanair that didn't happen - charge a quid to use them! Be an extra "tax" on folks like me that like a beer on a long journey, but could be healthy income for a company in these hard times, and the sweetener could be to not increase fares as much next year!

Mind you...if there's a charge at stations to have a pee, then why not on the train?? Free in first class, of course.

Could you buy a toilet season ticket? 10 toilet trips for the price of 9?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Could you buy a toilet season ticket? 10 toilet trips for the price of 9?

As many bring their own food now you may get some bringing their own toilet.

 

[al.currie93]

Food on trains generally is in decline and I do think that's set to continue with the railways being a p-word driven industry also largely driven on capacity. I've noticed that Southern have also practically stopped all catering (are there any?!)... except on the Gatwick Express, which I find rather pointless as if you're in the leading coach from Vicky you've just got enough time to order your coffee and you have to get off at Gatwick!

I'd say East Coast get my vote for the best catering, with FGW in a close second because East Coast commission and brand the food themselves instead of going with Ginsters, and operate a food trolley as well as the buffet/restaurant car. That said, I have only travelled standard class and tried the buffet on East Coast (on the Highland Chieftain which I can imagine they don't want running out of food!), and never experienced the FGW Pullman service so that may swing it.

I don't know, but another reason for the decline could be the apparent love on multiple units now; I'm guessing catering was most popular when train journeys clashed with meals, and with a locomotive and coaches you could easily couple a restaurant car or two onto the back of such a train and take it off when it wasn't needed... not so easy with multiple units, so just a thought!

 

[bb21]

Could you buy a toilet season ticket? 10 toilet trips for the price of 9?

Just imagine all the promotions that can be run.

• Buy ten toilet tokens and get five flushes for free.
• Buy from thetrainline and get a free toilet token/flush combo pack for each leg of the journey.
• Buy any two drinks from the trolley and get a free toilet token with two flushes.
• Half-price toilet token/flush pack if you have a Senior or Disabled Railcard.
• Priv-rates available - buy one toilet token and four flushes for the price of one combo.
• Under-18s go free with each adult.
• ...

Some TOCs will be claiming, "We are working hard to provide cheaper toilet facilities with various promotions."

OK, I'll stop.

 

[dk1]

why do trains carry so little food? Our East Coast train started its journey with one ham and cheese toastie so my wife and I had to share!

Not sure what's gone wrong with East Coast this last couple of years. Maybe that's what you get when you nationalise the service. Give it to Virgin.

 

[martynbristow]

I travelled Virgin down to London and a apart from the evening snack it was lovely
Cooked breakfast
Evening wine and coffee

The staff needed to work on their service a lot :P as that was a bit rough round the edges.

But the worlds moving to a pre packed world which is sad. The breakfast was all prepackaged would it be so hard to supply freshly baked goods
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

why do trains carry so little food? Our East Coast train started its journey with one ham and cheese toastie so my wife and I had to share!

Well one would assume because its a train :P
you have to cart the food around with limited storage and need to sell he stuff

 

[yorksrob]

Very pleased to see the Whitby train trolley for the first time. Was able to get a very strong hot cup of tea just how I like it. Provided by the excellent station buffet at Middlesbrough.

 

[theshillito]

So I heard on the grapevine that an unnamed train company is actually looking into having Greggs as on-train catering. Whether they will or not, I don't know...

 

[Jonfun]

why do trains carry so little food? Our East Coast train started its journey with one ham and cheese toastie so my wife and I had to share!

One is quite low (perhaps the service centre had missed a delivery, or the system that manages stock levels was having an off day?), but you do have to be aware of how many you can realistically sell in a day. There's no point putting 50 sandwiches on a train in the morning if you're going to have to put 35 to waste at the end of the day. Take an average of sales on the given service over the past fortnight or so, then put an extra one or two on top of it for any fluctuations in demand.

The staff needed to work on their service a lot as that was a bit rough round the edges.

Quite. Virgin's breakfast offer, and the complimentary alcohol etc was nice, and well worth it if you can get a decently priced advance, but I can't help feel staff morale at Virgin must be horrendously low for (not just one or two, sadly, almost all of) their first class service team to be as unhappy as they seemed to be.

So I heard on the grapevine that an unnamed train company is actually looking into having Greggs as on-train catering. Whether they will or not, I don't know...

I've always said, that's one way forward. A trusted brand, even if it's just overlaid onto the current catering offer in place of TOC branding like "Foodbar" or whatever would probably give it the kick it needs. IIRC somewhere like Sweden introduced an onboard Starbucks - not sure how successful it was, though.

 

[GarethJohn]

So I heard on the grapevine that an unnamed train company is actually looking into having Greggs as on-train catering. Whether they will or not, I don't know...

What happened to the Ginsters trains?

 

[martynbristow]

So I heard on the grapevine that an unnamed train company is actually looking into having Greggs as on-train catering. Whether they will or not, I don't know...

WOW!
I hope they'll do there breakfast deal :P
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

One is quite low (perhaps the service centre had missed a delivery, or the system that manages stock levels was having an off day?), but you do have to be aware of how many you can realistically sell in a day. There's no point putting 50 sandwiches on a train in the morning if you're going to have to put 35 to waste at the end of the day. Take an average of sales on the given service over the past fortnight or so, then put an extra one or two on top of it for any fluctuations in demand.



Quite. Virgin's breakfast offer, and the complimentary alcohol etc was nice, and well worth it if you can get a decently priced advance, but I can't help feel staff morale at Virgin must be horrendously low for (not just one or two, sadly, almost all of) their first class service team to be as unhappy as they seemed to be.



I've always said, that's one way forward. A trusted brand, even if it's just overlaid onto the current catering offer in place of TOC branding like "Foodbar" or whatever would probably give it the kick it needs. IIRC somewhere like Sweden introduced an onboard Starbucks - not sure how successful it was, though.

Well *you* should make sandwich on demand, you wouldn't have to waste them then :P

And yeah the moral was poor, except the lad with the wine, his mood improved as the wine decreased, coincidence

 

[scotsman]

It's not really a good idea having different brands for catering onboard. All staff onboard, regardless of their role, should be easily identifiable as staff of the TOC - in the event of an emergency they may be vital, but I'm not sure how many pax would take instructions from someone in a Starbucks (as an example) uniform regardless.

 

[aylesbury]

I agree about train catering in Germany and Italy they have the right approach to it but the populations of those countries have a different attitude to food.There are many regional variations that have a place on the train menus.On certain Italian trains the trolley service cart has a coffee machine on it plus the food on offer is mouthwatering.I do not think that English regional offerings have the same attraction as the dishes on offer over the alps.Whereas an Englishman would grudgingly buy a burger an Italian would expect a tasty pasta creation and a German would expect a local dish not a mass produced tastless item seen on the shelves of our trains.

 

[GarethJohn]

I agree about train catering in Germany and Italy they have the right approach to it but the populations of those countries have a different attitude to food.There are many regional variations that have a place on the train menus.On certain Italian trains the trolley service cart has a coffee machine on it plus the food on offer is mouthwatering.I do not think that English regional offerings have the same attraction as the dishes on offer over the alps.Whereas an Englishman would grudgingly buy a burger an Italian would expect a tasty pasta creation and a German would expect a local dish not a mass produced tastless item seen on the shelves of our trains.

Someones being watching Michael Portillo

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I've just come back from a few days away in Scotland, during which I used ScotRail's catering trolley, owing to the long nature of most of my trips (Inverness-Helmsdale is horribly dull btw, that's 5 hours I'll never get back!): £1.60 for a coffee (proper coffee, none of your whack it in a machine / capsule nonsense :P) is very reasonable for the amount you get, and certainly encouraged me to buy them more often than I would have if the price was pushing £2 or more. I also believe they were in-house staff: they certainly appeared a lot more friendly, talkative, and, frankly, more competent with English, than outsourced Rail Gourmet-style operation. Well done ScotRail!

 

[Tom B]

East Coast catering has improved massively since the days of National Express, when it was common for items to not be there at the start of the journey, or not replenished during the journey, with the contractor usually being blamed. And the buffet would typically be closed for a decent proportion of the journey for stock taking! At least now there is half a chance of more supplies being put on at (say) Newcastle, presumably if stocks are running low.

 

[dk1]

East Coast catering has improved massively since the days of National Express, when it was common for items to not be there at the start of the journey, or not replenished during the journey, with the contractor usually being blamed. And the buffet would typically be closed for a decent proportion of the journey for stock taking! At least now there is half a chance of more supplies being put on at (say) Newcastle, presumably if stocks are running low.

We all see things differently maybe through individual journeys. Mine in the last year or so with EC have been dreadful for over the counter buffet car use. Everything from service to choice. Give me Virgin's WC shop anyday & never thought i'd say that.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Maybe the Divine Comedy's description of the hostess lead to a downturn in usage.

it was the minimum wage that killed off the hostess service on Nat Ex coaches as it was 'commission only' scam self employment

 

[bb21]

I've just come back from a few days away in Scotland, during which I used ScotRail's catering trolley, owing to the long nature of most of my trips (Inverness-Helmsdale is horribly dull btw, that's 5 hours I'll never get back!): £1.60 for a coffee (proper coffee, none of your whack it in a machine / capsule nonsense :P) is very reasonable for the amount you get, and certainly encouraged me to buy them more often than I would have if the price was pushing £2 or more. I also believe they were in-house staff: they certainly appeared a lot more friendly, talkative, and, frankly, more competent with English, than outsourced Rail Gourmet-style operation. Well done ScotRail!

I think they are still instant, but at a much more reasonable price.

I have a Keepcup and I think it is an excellent idea, and at £6 for six refills, it is an absolute bargain.

 

[455driver]

It's not really a good idea having different brands for catering onboard. All staff onboard, regardless of their role, should be easily identifiable as staff of the TOC - in the event of an emergency they may be vital, but I'm not sure how many pax would take instructions from someone in a Starbucks (as an example) uniform regardless.

What use are the catering staff in an emergency?
They are not trained (or insured) to help out any more than Joe public is!


This isnt meant to belittle the staff who do a wonderful job and I think that all traincrew should be trained in the basics.

 

[najaB]

They are not trained (or insured) to help out any more than Joe public is!

I believe that the veracity of that statement varies between TOCs.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Indeed, I believe Virgin's onboard CSAs for instance are fully aware of emergency and evacuation procedures, in line with guards. I can imagine they are 'useless' if outsourced, but I wouldn't be surprised if in-house catering / CSA staff are qualified to help to some degree.

 

[Tom B]

We all see things differently maybe through individual journeys. Mine in the last year or so with EC have been dreadful for over the counter buffet car use. Everything from service to choice. Give me Virgin's WC shop anyday & never thought i'd say that.

Fair enough, I suppose it depends on the journeys and times you make them!

What use are the catering staff in an emergency?
They are not trained (or insured) to help out any more than Joe public is!

This isnt meant to belittle the staff who do a wonderful job and I think that all traincrew should be trained in the basics.

Really? A catering assistant has absolutely no training in what to do in an emergency? As an outsider to the industry I'm very surprised, I'd have thought that this would be part of their training. Sure, they wouldn't have a great deal of responsibility, but I'd expect them to have enough to be of some assistance to the Guard in such a situation, even if that is only reassuring passengers, helping people to other carriages or off the train, operating emergency exits/lighting etc - to free up the Guard to deal with protection of the line/informing the emergency services etc.

 

[455driver]

Fair enough, I suppose it depends on the journeys and times you make them!



Really? A catering assistant has absolutely no training in what to do in an emergency? As an outsider to the industry I'm very surprised, I'd have thought that this would be part of their training. Sure, they wouldn't have a great deal of responsibility, but I'd expect them to have enough to be of some assistance to the Guard in such a situation, even if that is only reassuring passengers, helping people to other carriages or off the train, operating emergency exits/lighting etc - to free up the Guard to deal with protection of the line/informing the emergency services etc.

The more you train people the more it costs (plus they have to have refreshers every so often which also costs money) and the more those staff would expect to be paid! Would you be happy to take on extra training/responsibilities and risks for no extra money?
From the TOCs point of view how many staff do you train bearing in mind the low chance of that training being used in an emergency?

 

[scotsman]

What use are the catering staff in an emergency?
They are not trained (or insured) to help out any more than Joe public is!


This isnt meant to belittle the staff who do a wonderful job and I think that all traincrew should be trained in the basics.

Most inhouse staff are trained in evacuation, my understanding is that they aren't with contractors. Point is the guard can pass instructions to other crew, who can pass on information or instructions?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

What use are the catering staff in an emergency?
They are not trained (or insured) to help out any more than Joe public is!

True, but they do have vital Company phone nos, know the basics of who is responsible for what, the station platform layouts, calling patterns and timings, where the emergency facilities are located, have access to the PA system (and training in how to use it), how to operate the doors, and perhaps most usefully, how to communicate with control. In a crisis, some of those abilities might be critical. Actually, the competencies and knowledge will vary greatly among a crew, and I guess that very inconsistency is a risk.

This isnt meant to belittle the staff who do a wonderful job and I think that all traincrew should be trained in the basics.

I absolutely agree - not to provide the competencies only contributes to the fragility of operations - and with the progressive loss of personnel on the ground over the years, there are simply fewer people on the ground to make things happen - so it follows that the fewer personnel we employ to run the network, then the greater the range of qualification, experience and knowledge we should be providing in those who are employed. No one would be disadvantaged by staff training (apart from the cost to the Company) and the benefit could be very great in a crisis, and of mild benefit many times a day.

Here's a trivial example of where a little more training would provide mild but useful practical help: Once a day there's an East Coast late night HST service from Aberdeen to Leeds (arr 00:47). It has manual doors, 9 coaches +2. There is no platform staff that late at night at some of its stations. The train is crewed by a Driver, a Guard and 4-6 CSAs. So the Guard has to walk a third of a kilometer to check all the doors by themselves at each of those unstaffed stations (and further if a passenger alights or arrives at a door that has already been checked). That is misery on a long train, alone, in the dark, and in the rain (and at Morpeth, on a curved platform).
It is also unnecessary.

It would be so easy to have a CSA assist with, say, the doors of the First Class cars. But they're not trained and authorised to perform such a simple task. So instead, the Company builds in an additional 15 minutes to the journey time, rather than provide some of the catering staff with the simple skills of checking doors, and at the inconvenience of all the passengers every day, at occupying a longer path than neccessary on the network, and giving their Guards a miserably, slow and absurd task.
[In practice, that EC service always carries at least one driver travelling pass, but the drivers are not obliged to assist.]

Sometimes, operators don't help themselves. What possible benefit has there ever been from a policy of NOT training staff?
(Oh, yes, the cost)

 

[dcsprior]

One is quite low (perhaps the service centre had missed a delivery, or the system that manages stock levels was having an off day?), but you do have to be aware of how many you can realistically sell in a day. There's no point putting 50 sandwiches on a train in the morning if you're going to have to put 35 to waste at the end of the day. Take an average of sales on the given service over the past fortnight or so, then put an extra one or two on top of it for any fluctuations in demand.

Presumably the solution would be replenishment part-way through the day, or even part-way through the journey - everytime an item is scanned or keyed as being sold (or wasted) another could be ordered

Quite. Virgin's breakfast offer, and the complimentary alcohol etc was nice, and well worth it if you can get a decently priced advance, but I can't help feel staff morale at Virgin must be horrendously low for (not just one or two, sadly, almost all of) their first class service team to be as unhappy as they seemed to be.

On East Coast, the friendliness of the staff varies hugely. My normal trains (0540 EDB-KGX on Tuesdays, 1700 KGX-EDB on Thursdays) have friendly and helpful staff in both 1st and Std - but on some other services they seem slightly less so.

Perhaps it's something to do with the increasing dominance of Advance tickets, for the use of which passengers will want to arrive early to make sure they're not stung for a new walk-up ticket.

I'd say this is a large part of it. I aim to be at Kings Cross 25-30 minutes before my train, to ensure I catch it and avoid forfeiting my advance ticket - If there's no problems on the underground which cause me to use this time, I have the choice to either :
A - Use the time to visit Pret, M&S, Waitrose, etc. at the station
B - Wait around on the concourse, then buy my food from a smaller selection on-board, probably at a slightly higher price too

Perhaps the solution is to not compete for the sandwich market, but look at other things to sell:

• Hot food - no-one is going to buy something hot to eat an hour later. I'm thinking something easy to do well and hard to do badly (panini/soup/bacon roll/etc)
• Tea/Coffee - even if a passenger has bought one at the station, they'll likely be ready for another halfway through a long journey
• Newspapers - the newsagents at some stations don't open as early as the smaller food/coffee stands, and trains often carry them for their 1st passengers anyway
• Oyster cards preloaded with £5 credit for £10 (or £15 credit for £20)

Also, it may encourage use if the counter is at the midway point of standard class, rather than at one end as it is on some services at present.

 

[LateThanNever]

Presumably the solution would be replenishment part-way through the day, or even part-way through the journey - everytime an item is scanned or keyed as being sold (or wasted) another could be ordered



On East Coast, the friendliness of the staff varies hugely. My normal trains (0540 EDB-KGX on Tuesdays, 1700 KGX-EDB on Thursdays) have friendly and helpful staff in both 1st and Std - but on some other services they seem slightly less so.



I'd say this is a large part of it. I aim to be at Kings Cross 25-30 minutes before my train, to ensure I catch it and avoid forfeiting my advance ticket - If there's no problems on the underground which cause me to use this time, I have the choice to either :
A - Use the time to visit Pret, M&S, Waitrose, etc. at the station
B - Wait around on the concourse, then buy my food from a smaller selection on-board, probably at a slightly higher price too

Perhaps the solution is to not compete for the sandwich market, but look at other things to sell:

• Hot food - no-one is going to buy something hot to eat an hour later. I'm thinking something easy to do well and hard to do badly (panini/soup/bacon roll/etc)
• Tea/Coffee - even if a passenger has bought one at the station, they'll likely be ready for another halfway through a long journey
• Newspapers - the newsagents at some stations don't open as early as the smaller food/coffee stands, and trains often carry them for their 1st passengers anyway
• Oyster cards preloaded with £5 credit for £10 (or £15 credit for £20)

Also, it may encourage use if the counter is at the midway point of standard class, rather than at one end as it is on some services at present.

Spot on (though I don't know about £5 premium for Oyster Cards)!
Hot food is what they need to provide to improve sales and there is no real excuse for not supplying it as there are decent microwavable meals around these days that can be stored at ambient temperatures. Less of the overpriced curled sandwiches which need refrigeration, have a short shelf life and are better at M&S and leave off the overheated confectionary which is twice the price of the local newsagent. This does not encourage anyone to buy!
A sales based ordering system is industry standard in food retail but it would need more sophisticated tills on most trolleys (tho' XC seem to have something like this?) Details are then sent to the next replenishment point for more supplies which are then available for loading when the train calls.
Catering needs to be seen as part of the whole service and not just an overhead. If catering were done properly it should at least break even but it rarely is! A few more catering managers (if such people exist on the railway?) need to decide what they want and need - rather than being just sold the latest money making scheme from Starbucks! Which I'll bet makes more money for Starbucks than for them...

 

[Flamingo]

What use are the catering staff in an emergency?
They are not trained (or insured) to help out any more than Joe public is!


This isnt meant to belittle the staff who do a wonderful job and I think that all traincrew should be trained in the basics.

Wrong, on FGW HST's on-train catering staff have first-aid, fire and evacuation training as part of induction, with yearly updates.