Catering on Trains

[Masbroughlad]

Do you think we will ever see a TOC introduce improved catering? A bistro or restaurant carriage on long distance? Or at least bring back a buffet counter service of hot meals.....

Serco seem to have plans for the Scottish sleepers but that is a bit different.

Too many long distance operators have dumbed down too much re meals.

Travelling from the Midlands to the West Country one morning last week. A breakfast in a catering car (or tray meal at my seat) would have been good. Coffee and a KitKat was my breakfast in the end...

I am sure that some innovative thinking and marketing could a) feed passengers and b) make money!

And I don't get the buy before you board thing. Long journeys don't work with that.

DB manage it in Germany - Why can't we?

Many GNER restaurant trains were profitable!

Will it ever be big again?

 

[Manchester77]

Do you think we will ever see a TOC introduce improved catering? A bistro or restaurant carriage on long distance? Or at least bring back a buffet counter service of hot meals.....

Serco seem to have plans for the Scottish sleepers but that is a bit different.

Too many long distance operators have dumbed down too much re meals.

Travelling from the Midlands to the West Country one morning last week. A breakfast in a catering car (or tray meal at my seat) would have been good. Coffee and a KitKat was my breakfast in the end...

I am sure that some innovative thinking and marketing could a) feed passengers and b) make money!

And I don't get the buy before you board thing. Long journeys don't work with that.

DB manage it in Germany - Why can't we?

Many GNER restaurant trains were profitable!

Will it ever be big again?

First Great Western seem to do catering well at the moment with their traveling chefs and Pullman offers as well as the conventional buffet counter where you can buy drinks and snacks. However the advent of IEP may well kill this since they don't have buffet counters.

The reason why buffet cars have gone is because the space is needed for seats. However with HS2 I hope that it's seen that they could have a proper catering car able to provide breakfasts and dinners so you can eat en route. If they're not on HS2 I doubt they will be big again.

XC catering is abysmal for any long distence operator. If they had normal length trains then a buffet counters could be encorporated allowing a better range of refreshments whoever that's clearly not practical on a 4 car 220!

 

[Crossover]

Well the FGW Travelling Chef is going too I believe!

 

[Robertj21a]

Can't see anything returning. Rail tickets already very expensive, meals often expensive, space needed for seats, labour intensive etc etc.

Most people are just going to snack, with food/drink bought beforehand.

 

[Red Dragon]

Well the FGW Travelling Chef is going too I believe!

Unfortunately I thought it might, so a couple of months ago I took the sleeper from Paddington to Penzance, meandered back to Plymouth and the next day went from Plymouth to Paddington. We had lunch in the Dining Car - an excellent steak with a bottle of red and the constantly changing view from Dawlish. A wonderful experience.

 

[Masbroughlad]

Will IEP not have a counter service then? And no galley?

 

[GarethJohn]

First Great Western seem to do catering well at the moment with their traveling chefs and Pullman offers as well as the conventional buffet counter where you can buy drinks and snacks. However the advent of IEP may well kill this since they don't have buffet counters.

The reason why buffet cars have gone is because the space is needed for seats. However with HS2 I hope that it's seen that they could have a proper catering car able to provide breakfasts and dinners so you can eat en route. If they're not on HS2 I doubt they will be big again.

XC catering is abysmal for any long distence operator. If they had normal length trains then a buffet counters could be encorporated allowing a better range of refreshments whoever that's clearly not practical on a 4 car 220!

If HS2 is going too be as fast as it's proposed than less people may take up the On-board catering option - unless it's part of the ticket package- as shorter journey time means less of a need.

I personally will not pay the on train prices on a journey less than 2-3 hours long. Do Virgin offer the £10 upgrade on on longer journeys than Wolves-Euston? If so it would be tempting on a Glasgow service.

Do TransPennine offer anything with their First Class ticket? I travelled on its trains last Saturday and saw little difference between First and ordinary class there was no trolley on-board either so they had no refreshments included in the price.

What is the benefit of going First Class with Trans-Pennine? First Class seems just an inconvenience to passengers as it prevents the train using its full potential capacity at busy times.

I was surprised not too see a trolley on the Man Picc-Carmarthern train last Saturday as this long trip without anything available.

 

[Sploosh]

i see a lot of people bringing bought food onto the train with them and again sometimes it comes down to money well always!! more seats more money compared with what a customer would buy.but how many eateries are on station platforms now especially the big ones ?

 

[IanXC]

However the advent of IEP may well kill this since they don't have buffet counters.

Will IEP not have a counter service then? And no galley?

IEP *can* have buffet counters, it will be for the TOCs to decide how they the trains' interiors are specified.

Unfortunately I thought it might, so a couple of months ago I took the sleeper from Paddington to Penzance, meandered back to Plymouth and the next day went from Plymouth to Paddington. We had lunch in the Dining Car - an excellent steak with a bottle of red and the constantly changing view from Dawlish. A wonderful experience.

Sounds more like Pullman (which they're intending to expand on withdrawal of Travelling Chef)?

 

[Manchester77]

Well the FGW Travelling Chef is going too I believe!

That's a shame it was nice have some decent food without paying loads for it (like the pullman) or having to have some tea and chocolate bar for a meal!

If HS2 is going too be as fast as it's proposed than less people may take up the On-board catering option - unless it's part of the ticket package- as shorter journey time means less of a need.
I personally will not pay the On train prices on a journey less than 2-3 hours long.Do Virgin offer the £10 upgrade on on longer journeys than Wolves-Euston? If so it would be tempting on a Glasgow service.

Do Trans-Pennine offer anything with their First Class ticket?I traveled on it's Trains last Saturday and saw little difference between First and ordinary class there was no trolley on-board either so they had no refreshments included in the price.
What is the benefit of going First Class with Trans-Pennine?First Class seems just an inconvenience too passengers as it prevents the Train using it's full potential capacity at busy times.
I was surprised not too see a Trolley on the Man Picc-Carmarthern train last Saturday as this long trip without anything available.

Well I was thinking say you get on a 07:45 HS2 service to Piccadilly, while it may take almost half the time it does now people will surely want some decent food as opposed to something off the trolley. On the 390s you could have a buffet counter if you got rid of the shop.
Yeah you usually get free tea/coffee and the seats are more comfortable with plug sockets and recliners.

IEP *can* have buffet counters, it will be for the TOCs to decide how they the trains' interiors are specified.

I didn't know that, would you happen to know if they have to fit a certain space or would they replace an area of seating?

 

[route:oxford]

Well I was thinking say you get on a 07:45 HS2 service to Piccadilly, while it may take almost half the time it does now people will surely want some decent food as opposed to something off the trolley. On the 390s you could have a buffet counter if you got rid of the shop.

What people say they want and what they actually use isn't always the same thing.

Especially when they discover that they may have to leave their stuff and walk through 7ish coaches to reach the counter.

Eating whilst travelling was often a mitigation of boredom, modern phones and tablets are an alternative distraction.

 

[IanXC]

I didn't know that, would you happen to know if they have to fit a certain space or would they replace an area of seating?

Any extra Standard class catering facilities would indeed replace a seating area as compared to the draft layouts the DfT published. Under the terms of the contract Hitachi are required to deliver various catering options at the TOCs' discretion.

The first class kitchen is located immediately behind the cab, so not suitable for standard class counter service, meaning its likely that any standard class catering facility is likely to be a 'mico buffet'. There is, however no reason standard class orders couldn't be fulfilled from the first class kitchen and delivered to seat, should a TOC desire to do so.

 

[Manchester77]

Any extra Standard class catering facilities would indeed replace a seating area as compared to the draft layouts the DfT published. Under the terms of the contract Hitachi are required to deliver various catering options at the TOCs' discretion.

The first class kitchen is located immediately behind the cab, so not suitable for standard class counter service, meaning its likely that any standard class catering facility is likely to be a 'mico buffet'. There is, however no reason standard class orders couldn't be fulfilled from the first class kitchen and delivered to seat, should a TOC desire to do so.

Interesting thanks I didn't know a buffet could be included. I wonder if FGW will opt for that then since all of their HST sets have at least a micro buffet.

 

[455driver]

While it is indeed up to the TOC to spec the train interior, they are put under a lot of pressure by the DaFT to maximise the number of seats on board!

Guess what that means for any sort of buffet area?

 

[Qwerty133]

It can't get any worse on many routes...
For example on EMT, the catering for the whole of standard will consist of 3 bottles of Coke, 3 bottles of Diet Coke 2 bottles of sprite (sold by some staff as sparkling water), and 4 bottles of water for 'cold' (read: warm) drinks, tea, instant coffee, instant decaf coffee and hit chocolate for 'hot' (read: slightly warmer) drinks. About 12 cans of various beers and cider and a few bottles of wine, served in paper coffee cups.
As for food you have the choice of 2 sandwiches (2 actual sandwiches not 2 types), or 3 packs of crisps in each of ready salted, chess and onion, salt and vinegar and quavers. And 4 kitkats.
The above only happens when RailGormet decide they can be bothered to turn up, and the trolley person doesn't lock themselves in the buffet on their phone.
Oh yeah and you won't get any change from a 20 if you buy 4 hit drinks and the 4 kitkats.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I do think 390s in particular are excessive in buffet provision; however I do wonder how much seating capacity it would cost just to have a very basic counter installed: for example incorporating fridges into the counter and scrapping any microwave facilities to give a very streamlined yet effective provision for passengers. Any warm food orders could perhaps be passed through to First Class an delivered to the buffet from there?

 

[broadgage]

Will IEP not have a counter service then? And no galley?

As presently proposed they will have a kitchen in the first class driving vehicle for meal service in first only.

Steerage wont get anything beyond a trolley. No buffet counter service.

The design can be altered in order to provide other options but IMHO it is most unlikely that this will happen.

 

[47802]

The problem with train catering is that it is simply too expensive for many people, and maybe its not viable to make it any cheaper, but as a result unless your well off or on expenses most people are going to make do with a drink and a snack or a sandwich, or buy before the journey, as I frequently do.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

For those longer journies on smaller trains with less space maybe a vending machine option could be the answer. Probably a card operated one (either credit/debit or pre purchased rail vending cards) would be the better option. Just a choice of a few basic 'essentials' on the refreshment side, no on board staff required and a relatively small space taken up on the carriage.

 

[daikilo]

The problem with train catering is that it is simply too expensive for many people, and maybe its not viable to make it any cheaper, but as a result unless your well off or on expenses most people are going to make do with a drink and a snack or a sandwich, or buy before the journey, as I frequently do.

The problem with train catering is that, for complete train diagrams, it doesn't earn enough to justify the space used. The trick is to reduce the space used first, then make the remaining offer more attractive. Gone your buffets and kitchens, go airline style.

 

[30907]

DB manage in Germany - Why can't we?

DB are gradually reducing their restaurant offer, both what you get (cutting the coffee refill at breakfast was sneaky!) and what trains you get it on. There are numerous ICs that have no catering, and very few that still have more than a Bistro. And of course it's all microwaved and has been for years.

Still, for second class there's nothing better in West Europe.

 

[scotsman]

As I've said before, onboard catering is not a profitable business. It's often provided as part of a franchise commitment.

Chiltern has it right - a limited catering service - namely only providing catering at a time when it breaks even, or there's a premium service on offer (silver trains).

Realisitically, TOCs will only consider catering (outside of commitments) from a customer service point of view. Yes, it may lose money but will customers be more satisifed if they can get a coffee or a sandwich on board? That and more onboard staff is generally considered a good thing.

Look at Virgin, excellent customer satisfaction levels - high levels of onboard staff, no trolley coming through, shop passengers can choose to visit at leasure. High satisfaction scores.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I have also experienced quite frequently on quieter VT services between Euston / Birmingham and Scotland that the CSA will either take a basic trolley through Standard, or, more commonly, come and take orders before delivering at-seat. I assume this is only when the train / Shop is quiet and there is a long gap between stations (such as a good hour or so for Carlisle-Glasgow).

 

[aylesbury]

I agree about VT the offerings are quite good having sampled both first and standard. I now always go first as I appreciate the at seat service and the quiet coach plus the staff are excellent.

 

[edwin_m]

It can't get any worse on many routes...
...
The above only happens when RailGormet decide they can be bothered to turn up, and the trolley person doesn't lock themselves in the buffet on their phone.

This is part of the reason on-train catering is failing.

Most large stations have a selection of retail outlets selling food that is often better and less expensive than what is available on the train. Unlike a sit-down meal, buying a sandwich only takes a couple of minutes. So on-train food becomes a distress purchase, which reduces sales significantly.

If the catering is unreliable, and especially if passengers aren't given enough advance warning when it isn't provided to buy before the train leaves, then many of those who might still be wanting to buy on train will make very sure they buy before boarding in future. Sales go down again.

And when sales go down, there will be pressure to reduce choice/quality of food or increase prices, cut staffing so service becomes less reliable or withdraw it completely from part or whole journeys. All of these will keep the vicious circle turning.

I'm not sure there is any way out of this. In principle a restaurant car offers the opportunity to have a proper meal in what might otherwise be "dead time". However the economics of such an operation mean that very few people will want to pay the considerably greater cost compared to a comparable meal in a static restaurant. And technology means that time on a train is no longer "dead" for many people so even this advantage is being eroded.

The alternative is to go to the other end of the scale and offer a minimalist trolley service, but I doubt many TOCs are making money out of it. It may continue only if the TOCs believe that the provision of catering is worthwhile in terms of increasing ticket sales.

 

[work-traveller]

A couple of years ago I went to a presentation by Hitachi Rail Europe on the design for the proposed IEP trains. Amongst other things, I noticed that the proposal resulted in no apparent catering for standard class. When I asked Hitachi, the response was that, when consulted, the TOC's asked for a trolley arrangement (CrossCountry/TPE style), rather than a shop (Virgin style). He did say that the trains would all be capable of having shops fitted in the future, but all my colleagues agreed with me that it's almost inconceivable that a TOC would retro fit shops in the future.

Disappointing really as it demonstrates the rail industry collectively reaching for the lowest common denominator when it comes to future catering for the masses on long rail journeys.

 

[willbaforceday]

Northern rail doesn't even care for catering! The only trolley service they have is on the Settle- Carlisle. What about the York- Blackpool North, the Leeds- Nottingham or the Sheffield- Scarborough? A trolley service would be nice. Again they would make profits from the trolley. Doesnt make sense at all :-x FTPE seem do do a decent job of theirs!

 

[telstarbox]

Blame Network Rail who are actively pursuing more retail and catering in stations.

Many large stations now have the likes of M&S Food and Starbucks which offer high quality food and drink (or at least perceived high quality). At the likes of Manchester Piccadilly you could have a different meal every day for several weeks.

 

[455driver]

Northern rail doesn't even care for catering! The only trolley service they have is on the Settle- Carlisle. What about the York- Blackpool North, the Leeds- Nottingham or the Sheffield- Scarborough? A trolley service would be nice. Again they would make profits from the trolley. Doesnt make sense at all :-x FTPE seem do do a decent job of theirs!

Would they though?
Dont forget you have the cost of the retail service manager, the costs of the trolleys (and maintenance, certification etc), the base locations costs, management costs, restocking costs etc. A trolley service isnt just the trolley and products.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's a typical spiral. Buffet counters cost money and might break even at best, because most people won't use them. So cost-cutting TOCs swap them for a trolley. Sales drop because trolley food is rubbish. So they stock less and lose more money and eventually, as with London Midland, they are withdrawn. The only profitable trolley service I'm aware of is that run by the Friends of the S&C, and that's staffed by volunteers.

People keep saying that they want "pullman style" catering on board, but the fact is that they don't. Not really. Most people like the idea of it but, when push comes to shove, either wait until they get to their destination to eat or buy before they board. I know I do.