Catering Manager sacked for telling Passengers the truth

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry but that is incorrect. Absolutely wrong. The food is not 'part of the fare'. You pay for a ticket to transport you from A to B.

No, it absolutely is not wrong.

The choice to purchase an InterCity type First Class ticket (rather than a Standard one, which indeed does only provide transport) is based on the value proposition as a whole, which includes the food, the increased likelihood (near certainty except in disruption by way of overprovision, usually) of a seat even if not reserved, the lounges etc. If the full value proposition is not provided, you are not getting what you paid for.

To suggest otherwise is nonsense, whatever the rules happen to say. IMO, that they do say it's "complimentary" is a cop-out. It will absolutely be a key part of the decision to buy the ticket by a large number of passengers. A First Class ticket is de-facto (though you're right to say not de-jure, though I disagree with that principle) a product containing a package of services, only one of which is access being permitted to the coaches marked as such.

If that is not the case and the food is by-the-by, it should not form any part of the TOC's advertising for the product and should just be a nice surprise on boarding if offered. However, it *is* a key part of the advertising.

Neil

 

[Metrailway]

IIRC BR used to give refunds to First Class passengers if advertised refreshments were not available.

 

[AngusH]

A thought occurs to me.

In my limited understanding, consumer transactions are unfair if the seller knew that they couldn't provide something (or part of that something) that they offer for sale.

So it could be that advance tickets are fair, given that this an unexpected failure that wasn't known about when the ticket was sold.

But tickets sold after the train left the depot could be unfair, because the operating company sold a ticket and didn't advise the customers that part of the expected offering was not available.

(arguably nonsensical, but possibly true)

 

[jon0844]

The choice to purchase an InterCity type First Class ticket (rather than a Standard one, which indeed does only provide transport) is based on the value proposition as a whole, which includes the food, the increased likelihood (near certainty except in disruption by way of overprovision, usually) of a seat even if not reserved, the lounges etc. If the full value proposition is not provided, you are not getting what you paid for.

I agree with you in principle. I'd be somewhat p**sed off to have paid for first class, avoided breakfast with the intention of eating on the train and then being told 'sorry mate, no food or drink today'. And to me, the offering on EC would be a consideration if I was going to travel first class and perhaps look at other operators (e.g. Grand Central).

BUT, the point is EC has always been very careful to point out that's it free, so if they don't provide it the loss to you is, nothing. I accept that's the way it is and given that rather long thread about EC First Class, and the variable service, I've actually NOT ONCE been tempted to travel EC first class since it was introduced, as I just know I'd pick the wrong train.

Now, personally, I'd seek to give out some sort of voucher to be used at a later date, as well as perhaps some free items from the trolley/buffet shop as a goodwill gesture - but if they can't provide a service, unless you want to travel on another train, it's take it or leave it.

And that makes me wonder about if you have a first class advance ticket and there's no food provision. Would you be able to get the ticket endorsed to travel later? That's obviously assuming you found out in time.

 

[A-driver]

No, it absolutely is not wrong.

The choice to purchase an InterCity type First Class ticket (rather than a Standard one, which indeed does only provide transport) is based on the value proposition as a whole, which includes the food, the increased likelihood (near certainty except in disruption by way of overprovision, usually) of a seat even if not reserved, the lounges etc. If the full value proposition is not provided, you are not getting what you paid for.

To suggest otherwise is nonsense, whatever the rules happen to say. IMO, that they do say it's "complimentary" is a cop-out. It will absolutely be a key part of the decision to buy the ticket by a large number of passengers. A First Class ticket is de-facto (though you're right to say not de-jure, though I disagree with that principle) a product containing a package of services, only one of which is access being permitted to the coaches marked as such.

If that is not the case and the food is by-the-by, it should not form any part of the TOC's advertising for the product and should just be a nice surprise on boarding if offered. However, it *is* a key part of the advertising.

Neil

Considering the food isn't always free in first class your argument has little grounds.

It is no more than a complimentary offer and is subject to availability. If they can't provide the food then they can still transport you which is what you have paid for and that is all you pay for. They are hardly likely to cancel a train due to no catering crew or a kitchen fault.

It wasn't so long ago that east Coast charged extra ON TOP of the cost of a first class ticket for food. And it wasn't cheap either-and the first class tickets were not much Jesper proportionately so I'm sorry but you are wrong here.

Chances are that if you complained EC would give you something as a gesture of good will but it's not something you are entitled to.

If stagecoach decide to remove free food in first class and return to a menus in which you are charged for the food you purchase you won't see any change in first class ticket prices...

As for advertising the food, well it's clearly labelled as subject to availability like any promotion in any industry. If you choose to plan on the food definitely being available then that is your shortcoming.

 

[Chrism20]

I can see both sides of the argument here and it could be discussed forever and a day. Personally I think Neil is correct and the Holiday Inn Express ruling from last year supports that where they were told to change their free/complimentary breakfast advertising to 'Included' due to no 'Without breakfast' option being available to book. You cannot book a First Class seat only ticket without food - complimentary or not which IMO brings it into the same category as HIX ruling. All it needs is someone to challenge with the ASA.

However in the case we are discussing in this thread something different happened here, something I have never seen before.

I have a 1st season between Edinburgh & Newcastle (work in Newcastle) and normally if the food has ran out or there is a failure you get nothing.

Where did these paninis come from? Who sanctioned them? As normally you get nada.

Werenthe panini loaded on the instructions of management due to them knowing the boiler was broken?

Or has the MOS taken it upon themselves to serve up whatever they could? If so was this authorised?

The panini option baffles me as I have been on trains where things are broken and there is nothing. Why all of a sudden on this service was there an alternative?

The morning run from Leeds to Aberdeen runs out of stuff regularly before getting to Newcastle where nothing is loaded on and frequently Newcastle passengers get very little and the crew point blank refuse to serve panini etc from the buffet.

Why was this train different?

 

[Bletchleyite]

As for advertising the food, well it's clearly labelled as subject to availability like any promotion in any industry. If you choose to plan on the food definitely being available then that is your shortcoming.

Then the food is a useless gimmick. It only has value if I can plan on it being there, as if it is not there I have to eat beforehand or purchase some food to take with me on the train, and if I do that I won't be bothering with the "free" food.

To be of any use it has to be provided reliably. Obviously failures will occasionally cause it not to be, but just like a delayed train I think some RTVs are in order to compensate for the inconvenience of it not being. Also if it is known it will not be before departure, this should be made clear on the PIS (as it sometimes is) to allow people to purchase their own.

As for it being free, IMO that is a legal loophole. Something is only free if I can have it without buying anything else (e.g. one widget for £5 but buy one get one free means the price for two widgets is £5, and is the same as one widget, but the second one is not *actually* free because I can't have it without buying one). Otherwise it is to all intents and purposes included in the price. What the price would be without it is irrelevant, as EC do not offer a price without it (other than Standard).

Neil

 

[Flamingo]

We're the panini he gave away the for-sale items from the buffet? If so, (and not authorised by somebody) I could see a certain amount of hassle flowing from it...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why was this train different?

And could that be what he was actually sacked for - giving away stuff that wasn't in the First Class complimentary range? Are they permitted to do that? Is that strictly prohibited, perhaps, even if it arguably makes sense to do it?

Neil

 

[A-driver]

Then the food is a useless gimmick. It only has value if I can plan on it being there, as if it is not there I have to eat beforehand or purchase some food to take with me on the train, and if I do that I won't be bothering with the "free" food.

To be of any use it has to be provided reliably. Obviously failures will occasionally cause it not to be, but just like a delayed train I think some RTVs are in order to compensate for the inconvenience of it not being. Also if it is known it will not be before departure, this should be made clear on the PIS (as it sometimes is) to allow people to purchase their own.

As for it being free, IMO that is a legal loophole. Something is only free if I can have it without buying anything else (e.g. one widget for £5 but buy one get one free means the price for two widgets is £5, and is the same as one widget, but the second one is not *actually* free because I can't have it without buying one). Otherwise it is to all intents and purposes included in the price. What the price would be without it is irrelevant, as EC do not offer a price without it (other than Standard).

Neil

The food is no more than a gimmick though, it's a nice retire if you like but still not a garunteed!

There is no false advertising as the vast majority of trains fulfil the offer, but there will be one or two which can't due to unforeseen circumstances.

When it comes to this kind of offer I think it fair to say that if you are tht desperate for the food it shouldn't be relied upon.

If the food is unavailable then they will try to offer an alternative...as they did here. They can't cater for every dietary requirement so if that alternative is of no use to you then they can't do much about it.

As for your earlier suggestion of money back for no food, considering the cost of a full breakfast in first class is most likely less than 30p per person I doubt it would get you very far buying breakfast elsewhere would it?!

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the food is unavailable then they will try to offer an alternative...as they did here. They can't cater for every dietary requirement so if that alternative is of no use to you then they can't do much about it.

That is one reason I'm less likely to choose to pay for First Class, FWIW.

As for your earlier suggestion of money back for no food, considering the cost of a full breakfast in first class is most likely less than 30p per person I doubt it would get you very far buying breakfast elsewhere would it?!

If you're paying well over £200 for a First Class Anytime Return, I'm sure they could manage a £10 RTV, the cash equivalent of which would more than cover a plated English breakfast at most establishments in stations.

Neil

 

[A-driver]

That is one reason I'm less likely to choose to pay for First Class, FWIW.







If you're paying well over £200 for a First Class Anytime Return, I'm sure they could manage a £10 RTV, the cash equivalent of which would more than cover a plated English breakfast at most establishments in stations.



Neil

Why would they offer you £10 for the mon availability of a free product (offered subject to availability) which only costs them a few pence?!

You have stated that you feel that the food is part of the ticket price which is incorrect. Very little of that ticket price goes on food so they are unlikely to be able to afford that kind of voucher.

 

[richw]

Sorry but that is incorrect. Absolutely wrong. The food is not 'part of the fare'. You pay for a ticket to transport you from A to B. You are not even paying for a seat-if none are free (regardless of reservations) then you still pay what you paid to stand from A to B.

The food is complimentary and most importantly subject to availability. Your ticket price is purely for your transport, not for food, seat or anything else.

If they can't get you to your destination or you are significantly delayed then you will get some form of compensation. If no food is offered (being tht it is subject to availability) then you are not entitled to any compensation.

It's a train, not a restaurant. The food is free, it certainly is not pet of the fare and if EC decided to stop offering any free food then the ticket price would be unlikely to change to reflect this.

Sorry but you are very wrong with that post!

Regardless of being advertised as complementary, somebody would of paid for that food in their ticket prices.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why would they offer you £10 for the mon availability of a free product (offered subject to availability) which only costs them a few pence?!

Because the whole value proposition is not just about the pennies. First Class travel is sold as being about being treated well - quality accommodation, quality service, quality catering. It's about treating yourself, or your employer making you feel well-looked after. The value is not just the simple tangible elements at cost price.

You have stated that you feel that the food is part of the ticket price which is incorrect. Very little of that ticket price goes on food so they are unlikely to be able to afford that kind of voucher.

It is part of the ticket price because you can't have it without the ticket - something is only free if you can have it without paying for it. I'm thankful to someone who posted the Holiday Inn Express example upthread, as that is similar - it's a hotel room with included breakfast, not a "free breakfast" that they can provide or not provide at will without compensation if not provided, and it seems a Court agreed.

Neil

 

[VauxhallandI]

Regardless of being advertised as complementary, somebody would of paid for that food in their ticket prices.

It seems perfectly obvious to most people. Just because the food happens "most" of the time doesn't mean you can brush it under the carpet.

It isn't free, it is a costed part of the ticket along with the overheads to produce it. Otherwise how is it costed?

Who pays for the equipment, staff and the food? It comes out of the price of a ticket.

 

[A-driver]

It seems perfectly obvious to most people. Just because the food happens "most" of the time doesn't mean you can brush it under the carpet.



It isn't free, it is a costed part of the ticket along with the overheads to produce it. Otherwise how is it costed?



Who pays for the equipment, staff and the food? It comes out of the price of a ticket.

That argument falls down quite quickly when you consider that only a few years back a fist class ticket only included a free biscuit! If you wanted a meal you paid for it on top of your first class ticket. First class fares havnt gone up proportionately as they started to offer free food.

And thy are still offering food here, not the advertised selection as they have no way of providing that due to a fault of staff shortage, therefore they have offered an alternative. Not ideal but still covers their end of the deal.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Because the whole value proposition is not just about the pennies. First Class travel is sold as being about being treated well - quality accommodation, quality service, quality catering. It's about treating yourself, or your employer making you feel well-looked after. The value is not just the simple tangible elements at cost price.



It is part of the ticket price because you can't have it without the ticket - something is only free if you can have it without paying for it. I'm thankful to someone who posted the Holiday Inn Express example upthread, as that is similar - it's a hotel room with included breakfast, not a "free breakfast" that they can provide or not provide at will without compensation if not provided, and it seems a Court agreed.

Neil

For heavens sake, your ticket dosnt pay for your food. It is very clearly advertised as complimentary and clearly labelled subject to availability. All a train ticket covers is transportation from A to B. First class or standard. Any seats, food, drink, newspapers, luggage space, views from the window, wifi etc are not garunteed.

If you are that desperate for garunteed food ten simply bring your own.

Yes it's an offering to tempt you into upgrading and they provide it most of the time so there is no misleading advertising but they cover themselves in the small print against ever having to refund any ticket price for not providing seats, food, drink, wifi etc.

You have no real argument that you are entitled to money off your ticket for the food, and as I said earlier, even if they did decide to refund the cost of the food you would be talking a few pennies as they won't be spending more than that per head anyway. They certainly aren't going to look at offering you £10 to spend in a station. Most mass catering business like East Coast can provide a full English breakfast for no more than a few copper coins!

 

[VauxhallandI]

That argument falls down quite quickly when you consider that only a few years back a fist class ticket only included a free biscuit! If you wanted a meal you paid for it on top of your first class ticket. First class fares havnt gone up proportionately as they started to offer free food.

And thy are still offering food here, not the advertised selection as they have no way of providing that due to a fault of staff shortage, therefore they have offered an alternative. Not ideal but still covers their end of the deal.

Or they sacrifice part of their margin in order to attract more first class passengers. Speculate to accumulate.

Argument back on its feet.

 

[A-driver]

Or they sacrifice part of their margin in order to attract more first class passengers. Speculate to accumulate.



Argument back on its feet.

But the bottom line is that they clearly state that they can only offer any food subject to availability. If it's not available they are not required to refund any part of the ticket price as you are not paying for food, just transport.

If this wasn't the case then it would certainly have been changed by now being that someone would have taken them to court over it.

And even if they did offer money back, are you really saying you would be happy with them giving you a RTV to the value of 7p because they were only able to provide you a bacon roll instead of a full English?!

 

[VauxhallandI]

But the bottom line is that they clearly state that they can only offer any food subject to availability. If it's not available they are not required to refund any part of the ticket price as you are not paying for food, just transport.

If this wasn't the case then it would certainly have been changed by now being that someone would have taken them to court over it.

And even if they did offer money back, are you really saying you would be happy with them giving you a RTV to the value of 7p because they were only able to provide you a bacon roll instead of a full English?!

Subject to availability is different to "free".

The former suggests that sometimes there are issues beyond their control.

The free sounds more like "sit there and be bloody grateful and damn you if you didn't bring an emergency breakfast with you"

Sitting here with my parents they have received this stones cold "it's free" response. Whether you like it or not it goes down like a lead balloon and does put people off using the service.

 

[A-driver]

Subject to availability is different to "free".



The former suggests that sometimes there are issues beyond their control.



The free sounds more like "sit there and be bloody grateful and damn you if you didn't bring an emergency breakfast with you"



Sitting here with my parents they have received this stones cold "it's free" response. Whether you like it or not it goes down like a lead balloon and does put people off using the service.

Then people need to vote with their feet. If they are not getting enough first class custom then things would be changed. But considering they still regularly completely full up 1st despite very occasionally not being able to offer a full food service due to various issues (and it really is rare considering how many trains they run successfully...) I believe this all to be a complete non issue. Most people don't use first class purely for free food and are accepting that if it can't be provided it hasn't cost them anything as it's not part of their ticket price but a complimentary extra...

 

[Chrism20]

Subject to availability is different to "free".

The former suggests that sometimes there are issues beyond their control.

The free sounds more like "sit there and be bloody grateful and damn you if you didn't bring an emergency breakfast with you"

Sitting here with my parents they have received this stones cold "it's free" response. Whether you like it or not it goes down like a lead balloon and does put people off using the service.

Exactly

The Holiday Inn Express ruling I cited applies to free/complimentary having to be changed to inclusive. There is no alternative available to it becomes inclusive rather than free.

Subject to availability can be used but not to death and again will cause the supplier/provider/retailer issues if it is not supplying. Look at the bad press M&S got a few years back when they were advertising on TV all those fancy desserts but they very rarely appeared to be available in store.

Returning to the case of the dismissed employee free catering WAS provided, the regular menu was not available but a reasonable (panini) alternative (IMO anyway) was provided.

The passengers appear to have had an issue with the quality of the alternative, has it been the response to the lack of usual menu or the response to the quality of the alternative that has caused the customer to complain. Have the passengers been told "It's free you should be thankful" when they have probably boarded at a station that has lovely posters saying "Welcome to East Coast First Class" and "Quality oven cooked meals" on posters and they are presented with something inferior and the riposte of like it or lump it?

The picture posted in the article hardly looks appealing that's for sure.

 

[A-driver]

Exactly

The Holiday Inn Express ruling I cited applies to free/complimentary having to be changed to inclusive. There is no alternative available to it becomes inclusive rather than free.

Subject to availability can be used but not to death and again will cause the supplier/provider/retailer issues if it is not supplying. Look at the bad press M&S got a few years back when they were advertising on TV all those fancy desserts but they very rarely appeared to be available in store.

Returning to the case of the dismissed employee free catering WAS provided, the regular menu was not available but a reasonable (panini) alternative (IMO anyway) was provided.

The passengers appear to have had an issue with the quality of the alternative, has it been the response to the lack of usual menu or the response to the quality of the alternative that has caused the customer to complain. Have the passengers been told "It's free you should be thankful" when they have probably boarded at a station that has lovely posters saying "Welcome to East Coast First Class" and "Quality oven cooked meals" on posters and they are presented with something inferior and the riposte of like it or lump it?

The picture posted in the article hardly looks appealing that's for sure.

But subject to availability is not used to death by EC. It's very rare for them not to offer the advertised food. By far the vast majority offer the first class advertised service without a hitch.

 

[Chrism20]

But subject to availability is not used to death by EC. It's very rare for them not to offer the advertised food. By far the vast majority offer the first class advertised service without a hitch.

I could provide you with at least five or six dates (two of them this month) this calendar year where the advertised menu has not been available or the offering has been seriously downgraded.

I understand they run a lot of services but subject to availability is used almost to death at times , particularly North of York on northbound services.

 

[A-driver]

I could provide you with at least five or six dates (two of them this month) this calendar year where the advertised menu has not been available or the offering has been seriously downgraded.



I understand they run a lot of services but subject to availability is used almost to death at times , particularly North of York on northbound services.

Five or six dates in how long?

And how many trains is that compared to which were not affected?! Even if one a day can't offer food that is still a huge percentage of trips which can!

 

[VauxhallandI]

Then people need to vote with their feet. If they are not getting enough first class custom then things would be changed. But considering they still regularly completely full up 1st despite very occasionally not being able to offer a full food service due to various issues (and it really is rare considering how many trains they run successfully...) I believe this all to be a complete non issue. Most people don't use first class purely for free food and are accepting that if it can't be provided it hasn't cost them anything as it's not part of their ticket price but a complimentary extra...

Voting with feet suggestion doesn't really apply here though as that would be throwing the baby out with the bath water.

It is part of the experience nit it's entirety.

 

[Chrism20]

Five or six dates in how long?

And how many trains is that compared to which were not affected?! Even if one a day can't offer food that is still a huge percentage of trips which can!

If you had read the full post before responding you would have seen I said 'This calendar year'.

We are six weeks into the year which means it is averaging once per week. How many other passengers experience the same?

I am fully aware that they run a large number of services, I do believe I also commented on that in my post.

I understand that on occasions what is advertised may not be available, however I do not expect these occasions to be once a week.

This thread is about someone being dismissed, most of the recent comment would be better in the East Coast First Class service thread where this has been discussed at length already.

 

[pne]

As a passenger I would much rather hear "we're late, someone made a mistake and s/he says sorry for it" than "we're late, I can't say why"

Agreed.

There's also a difference between "a signal was set incorrectly in error" and "those idiots who sit in signal boxes messed up again, it'll be a cold day in hell before they get it right two days in a row, a monkey could do their job, etc.".

I don't think a statement of fact needs to undermine a "colleague" as the tone of voice and the choice of words also plays a part.

For heavens sake, your ticket dosnt pay for your food. It is very clearly advertised as complimentary and clearly labelled subject to availability.

[...]

Yes it's an offering to tempt you into upgrading and they provide it most of the time so there is no misleading advertising but they cover themselves in the small print against ever having to refund any ticket price for not providing seats, food, drink, wifi etc.

Is that so?

http://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/travelling-with-us/on-board/first-class-to-london/ , for example, uses the word "complimentary" a lot, but doesn't seem to say anything about "subject to availability" anywhere on that page that I can see -- the only starred footnote refers to wine.

On the contrary, they use devices such as check-marks next to things such as "complimentary breakfast" and "plenty of luggage space" in a list of "Benefits of our First Class", implying that such features are part of the First Class offering, and they use phrases such as "customers will enjoy a range of drinks and snacks" and "complimentary refreshments will be offered to you shortly after departure", with "will" rather than "will probably" or "may" or "subject to availability". (Though I grant that the bit about the refreshment shortly after departure is qualified as being on offer only on "most" weekday FC services to London.)

 

[GodAtum]

so what happened to him? was the original story true?

 

[Starmill]

My own two penneth is that East Coast's current First offering is the best out there on paper, but in practice it's rarely up to the high standards one expects. Their Customer Relations approach is terrible too, failing to compensate at all to make up for lost expectations. VT's current First Class service is not as variable, although they promise less they are more likely to deliver on it. If they don't, they're always happy to send our vouchers for at least 50% of your ticket price. Hopefully the VTEC approach will be more like the current WC one in future.

 

[Chrism20]

My own two penneth is that East Coast's current First offering is the best out there on paper, but in practice it's rarely up to the high standards one expects. Their Customer Relations approach is terrible too, failing to compensate at all to make up for lost expectations. VT's current First Class service is not as variable, although they promise less they are more likely to deliver on it. If they don't, they're always happy to send our vouchers for at least 50% of your ticket price. Hopefully the VTEC approach will be more like the current WC one in future.

The failure to address that there is a problem is ECs biggest issue and the responses are clearly cut and paste.

Looking forward to VTEC I think (although I could be completely wrong) that there is going to have to be some common ground on how the East and West respond to some issues. Whilst we know that its 90/10 in Stagecoach favour, in the eyes of the general public it is Virgin and comparisons will be made between East and West.

I think if the service goes towards the West Coast way of working (Which again I think it will) many of the existing, particularly newer EC staff will get a serious fright. No doubt the new management will have been out and about on EC services over the last few months and they will have a list of issues and behaviours that need to be addressed, I wouldn't be surprised if a few others follow Mr Doughty over the coming months.