krus_aragon
Established Member
That would require finding a path across the running lines at Crewe, which I understand are pretty scarce.
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Castlefield corridor potential solutions?
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Or providing the long-thought-of platform(s) on the Independent Lines.
krus_aragon
Established Member
I was thinking of a service originating from the Chester direction, like the current service. (Though the Independent Lines approach would work from Shrewsbury.)
Glenn1969
Established Member
I think passengers and politicians alike would find 4tph Leeds to Manchester unacceptable. You get crowding with 5 and the original aim was to increase to 6
You mean fasts? As there is the slower Calder Valley route at 2 an hour too, in addition to TPE.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
You get crowding with 5 using units that barely have 2.5 coaches of Standard. The 80x may well make a big difference to that (and the shorter Mk5 sets still some difference).
Glenn1969
Established Member
The Calder Valley services are also busy. I would say Manchester- Bradford could sustain 3tph if not 4. I take the point about longer trains but still think 4 tph per hour via Huddersfield is insufficient
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
But those too are excessively short trains. When they're run using 6-car Class 158 or 195 formations (using an SDO mod if necessary) come back and tell us they're full.
ABB125
Established Member
Would making every train heading to/from Manchester Airport an all-stations stopper from Piccadilly have any effect?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Probably not, as it's not that section of line that is congested.
Philip
On Moderation
4 trains per hour is plenty, the trains are just too short.
How about 3 per hour each using doubled up 802s and 10-coaches of mk5s, non stop Manchester-Leeds, with Huddersfield-Leeds served by quarter-hourly 3-6 coach shuttles and Manchester-Huddersfield a half hourly shuttle?
Glenn1969
Established Member
There is substantial traffic at Huddersfield (5.1m pax per year) on TPE and at Rochdale (1.3m), Halifax (1.95m) and Bradford (2.8m) on CV route. Even with 8/10 coaches 3 per hour is not sufficient. At peaks Huddersfield and Bradford also have a large numbers of workers and students going to and fro and a half hourly service to this station is woefully inadequate
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Really? I very much doubt it. I reckon that would be more than sufficient. 3 x 10 x 26m is a lot of train, particularly compared to the amount of capacity now. You're talking a capacity of around three thousand people per hour, and that's mostly seated.
If that is enough for London to Manchester, which I would expect to be the busiest IC flow in the UK[1], I suspect it is indeed enough for TPE.
[1] I don't count Reading, which might otherwise pip it, because that is a commuter flow that happens to be partly accommodated on IC trains.
3 10 coach trains would be plenty for the fast service, indeed it would carry a lot of fresh air with no Huddersfield passengers and a general fall in demand with the cut in frequency. Usage at Huddersfield would totally collapse.
Operationally it doesn't work because 3 fasts and 4 stoppers won't fit between Huddersfield and Leeds, and according to the sectional appendix 10x26 or 10x23+loco won't fit any platform at Manchester Victoria, Oxford Road or Airport, or platforms 1-4 at Piccadilly or 15/16 at Leeds.
I believe 4ph Leeds to Manchester via Huddersfield would be perfectly sufficient, if they were the right number of carriages. Remember even with 5 now, the times between them are not equal and they tend to turn up in each other’s paths anyway.
Ideally you’d have York to Manchester, via Leeds and Huddersfield, 2 calling at Dewsbury, 2 calling at Stalybridge, all 4 running to the same Manchester station, and running to a tidy every 15 minutes timetable.
Ideally you’d have York to Manchester, via Leeds and Huddersfield, 2 calling at Dewsbury, 2 calling at Stalybridge, all 4 running to the same Manchester station, and running to a tidy every 15 minutes timetable.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
You could also extend two to Newcastle and two to Scarborough (or one to Middlesbrough and one to Scarborough) if you wanted (and two to Liverpool at the other end), that wouldn't break the model. Even two to Blackpool at the western end if you wanted.
I agree with the view that the only short to medium term of restoring some resilience to the timetable is culling 2 of the 11 through services through Castlefield.
Even if Oxford Road upgrade and platforms 15/16 were given the go-ahead it would probably be another 5 years at least until that would all be operational given the logistics and constraints of Manchester's busy rail timetable and congested city centre environs. We need a resolution before that so that the Northern franchise doesn't haemorrhage passengers.
I think the Castlefield 'through' services to go are fairly obvious but which would still be able to retain the same level of services both sides of Manchester:
1. Cull the Crewe-Liverpool stopper: Crewe to terminate into Piccadilly. Chat Moss stopping service from Liverpool to revert back to Victoria. There is a great deal of risk associated with service with crew changeovers at Oxford Road and if it is running late (or TPE services are running late) then the faster trains behind to Manchester Airport are also delayed.
2. Southport to Alderley Edge: this seems a highly frivolous service just to pacify passengers in Southport for a direct link to Piccadilly to detriment of passenger south and immediately west of Manchester. Prior to May 2018 this formed part of a reliable Crewe to Manchester Piccadilly stopping service which was adequately serviced with 3/4 coach 319s/323s. However for the past 18 months for most of their journey they have been needlessly running as diesels under electric wires - although the 769s are due in service in March I have doubts about their reliability once in service as a retro-fitted bi-mode. Like many other once reliable routes it has been needlessly thrown into the gutter just to satisfy the demands of a small faction.
I suspect the improved level of punctuality on both routes will gradually bring back passengers which have been lost on both routes - particularly south of Manchester which was previously a 'bread and butter' revenue stream for Northern.
R G NOW.
Member
Could not see any mention of the xc services from Penzance to Edinburgh via Birmingham new street. I am sure they use platforms 13 and 14 also.
Also you have some shorter ones starting from man picc through to Bristol temple meads as well, what would you do with these, axe them.
Also you have some shorter ones starting from man picc through to Bristol temple meads as well, what would you do with these, axe them.
Along the bay
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They run via the east coast main line. Cross country services ceased to go through 13 and 14 at some point between 2003 and 2007.
Greybeard33
Established Member
Before May 2018 there was the Southport to Manchester Airport service, so Southport commuters have some justification when they claim they have built their lives around a direct service to jobs in the Oxford Road/Piccadilly area.
The only Northern services through the corridor that are really additional since May 2018 are the Liverpool - Crewe and the Barrow/Windermere - Airport. The others are just changes to the southern terminus
(Southport) or to the route (Liverpool - Airport). The two Blackpool services are unchanged.
Philip
On Moderation
How about merging the Cumbria and Southport services into one portion service starting from the Airport and splitting at Bolton? The Cumbria can still work to Wigan non-stop after Bolton so that Wigan retains a reasonably fast service from Manchester, with the Southport following behind and using the same calling pattern to Wigan as it does now. With four or five coach 195 formations, platform space at the Airport shouldn't be a problem.
Alderley-Manchester can return to the short shuttle service that it used to be.
Liverpool - Crewe isn't really additional, there was the Chat Moss Liverpool-Airport; with the new CLC Liverpool - Airport replacing Liverpool - Scarborough on that section. Basically a stopper was swapped to Piccadilly and a fast to Victoria. The additional services are the 2tph over the Ordsall Chord and the Barrow/Windermere services which don't do portion working anymore.
Philip
On Moderation
Be interested to hear others' thoughts about my idea above for merging the Southport-Alderley service into the Cumbria-Airport at Bolton, to free up a path through Castlefield?
Are there any obvious stumbling blocks for doing this?
Are there any obvious stumbling blocks for doing this?
daodao
Established Member
Splitting services as you suggest increases unreliability and poor timekeeping.
Trains from Cumbria (Windermere/Barrow), which are all diesel, should run no further south than Preston (or preferably Lancaster).
No Southport trains, which are all diesel, should run through Castlefield - they should all run to Victoria and beyond.
Services via the Castlefield corridor need to be radically pruned, and preferably those running to the west via Chat Moss or Bolton should be electric only.
Greybeard33
Established Member
Currently the two services are scheduled almost half an hour apart at Wigan in both directions, so a major timetable recast would be needed to pair them. This would take time to plan and implement, and even if paths could be found, it might be necessary to slow one or other service to get them to match.
The Cumbria service is timed at 30 minutes from Wigan to Oxford Road via Golborne, whereas the Southport takes 42 minutes via Bolton. The time saved by skipping Hindley and Westhoughton would be taken up by the time needed for coupling at Bolton, so you would be adding over 10 minutes to the journey from Cumbria. The Southport service would have to wait at least 5 minutes at Bolton for the Cumbria to catch up and couple, which would not be popular with Southport travellers.
Splitting and joining increases performance risk. If the southbound Cumbria were delayed, the Southport would block Bolton Platform 3 while waiting for it, probably causing knock-on delays to other services.
At Wigan NW, Platform 1 is the only platform that can accessed from both the Hindley lines and the WCML north, and a northbound train has to cross the Up Main when departing from there. That might make it difficult to find paths for the Cumbria services.
The Cumbria service has to share a platform at the Airport, so the combined service could not be longer than 4-car. Therfore each portion would have to be a 2-car 195/0. Would that provide enough capacity?
The franchise agreement requires 2tph from Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme to Salford Crescent and Bolton, but with the Alderley service terminating at Piccadilly there would be only 1tph (the Hazel Grove to Blackpool).
Having said all that, your idea would save one path through the Castlefield corridor while preserving the direct Cumbria - Airport service and restoring the direct Southport - Airport service (lost in May 2018). So I think it does merit a feasibility study.
Why is there a need for both of these to be a stopper and what happens to the Preston one too? Also how do these proposals now fit in with everything at the other end at Euxton junction?
Philip
On Moderation
Interesting considerations. Regarding 2 coaches beyond Bolton and the question of capacity for Wigan, perhaps the service enhancement on the Atherton line makes this less of an issue?
I guess an easier alternative would be to divert the Cumbria service into Victoria and have it start from there; assuming there is capacity and platform space on the through platforms.
I guess an easier alternative would be to divert the Cumbria service into Victoria and have it start from there; assuming there is capacity and platform space on the through platforms.
Greybeard33
Established Member
The Chat Moss stopper is not really an equivalent service to the previous semi-fast, even though it runs on the same line. It is so slow that it is of little use for intercity journeys from Lime Street to Piccadilly/Airport. Therefore it is arguably less deserving of a path through the congested corridor. Diversion to Victoria would mainly inconvenience some of the users of the intermediate Chat Moss stations, while benefiting some others who want to go to that side of Manchester or to change to Leeds or Calder Valley services.
adrock1976
Established Member
I feel that the only way to reduce congestion along the Castlefield corridor at this moment in time is for every town and city on the east side of the Pennines not to have direct trains to Manchester Airport.
Newcastle upon Tyne, Teesside, Leeds/Bradford, Humberside/East Riding of Yorkshire all have their own airports, which could be better developed.
I am puzzled as to how towns and cities on the east side of the Pennines must have direct trains to Manchester Airport, unless there are hordes of people that jet off to St Moritz or Juan le Pain everyday. It would be like me jetting off to Sydney to do my weekly shop when I already have a Tesco Extra, Lidl, and Home Bargains a mere five minute walk across the road from me.
Newcastle upon Tyne, Teesside, Leeds/Bradford, Humberside/East Riding of Yorkshire all have their own airports, which could be better developed.
I am puzzled as to how towns and cities on the east side of the Pennines must have direct trains to Manchester Airport, unless there are hordes of people that jet off to St Moritz or Juan le Pain everyday. It would be like me jetting off to Sydney to do my weekly shop when I already have a Tesco Extra, Lidl, and Home Bargains a mere five minute walk across the road from me.
43074
Established Member
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I'd agree with this, but add:
- Terminate Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport service at Piccadilly to remove conflicts in the station throat or at Slade Lane Jn between Stockport and Airport routes
- Remove the Preston to Manchester Victoria all stations service which takes 55 mins and has 5 mins turnaround at either end, and routinely has days where the entire service runs with delays. Compromise with additional calls in one of the other 2tph from Blackpool and divert the 1tph Blackpool to Hazel Grove service to the Airport; the two above leave the only conflicting move at Slade Lane the hourly EMR service.
- Run services from Barrow and Windermere no further South than Lancaster or Oxenholme respectively with connections into TPE Scottish services which are faster anyway
That way you'd have about 11tph through the Castlefield corridor including a freight path which would run via Styal/Heald Green and no more than 8tph between Manchester and the Airport which ought to work robustly off the four platforms.
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