carriage keys

[AlexS]

Unlikely I feel, more likely just to have the offending item confiscated!

The amount of people who are private railway volunteers or staff whether all the time or just once a year kind of makes any BR standard 'common' issue key like a BR1 or a RCH key dud security wise. Which is why I suspect new locks have been appearing on more safety critical objects. Obviously not the case for keys like the signalling grand master or similar which are much, much, much more tightly controlled!

Since I have a workers pass for one of said private railways (who do a lot of business with Network Rail and other TOCs for that matter!) if I was carrying any standardised railway key relevent to my duty to or from what I'm doing, there's no legal standing against me - except of course should I actually use said key which would be extremely unprofessional anyway and would probably see me lose said pass - we had a case on the GCR apparently a few years back where a (young) porter was using a bardic lamp to send signals to passing trains on the mainline, I believe the police eventually caught up with him.

Any volunteer or member of staff at a private railway governed by an act of parliament is technically a railway official anyway and provided the right documentation is available I can't see them having any problems unless they're screwing around.

As for the drivers getting panicky on here - some of your colleagues would appear not to share your concern, BR01 keys were for sale at the recent Quorn swapmeet by a group of freight drivers from the west side of the country for a pound a pop!

 

[ungreat]

Any volunteer or member of staff at a private railway governed by an act of parliament is technically a railway official anyway and provided the right documentation is available I can't see them having any problems unless they're screwing around.

Yes,a valid point,but most preserved railways are staffed by enthusiasts..no problem there for me but some DO abuse the privilege..but,a preserved railway volunteer,whether governed by parliament or not,has no more rights on Network Rail property or any TOC trains than travel ,unless working a special..basically,still members of the public.I may have read your reply wrongly,but you suggest that preserved line staff have the same rights as operational staff...not so,once off your section



[QUOTEAlexS=;208283]As for the drivers getting panicky on here - some of your colleagues would appear not to share your concern, BR01 keys were for sale at the recent Quorn swapmeet by a group of freight drivers from the west side of the country for a pound a pop![/QUOTE]


Money grabbing tactics..enthusiasts will always buy stuff like this(who wouldn't in any hobby?)..anything for a few quid,and stupid in my eyes of those drivers

 

[O L Leigh]

As for the drivers getting panicky on here - some of your colleagues would appear not to share your concern, BR01 keys were for sale at the recent Quorn swapmeet by a group of freight drivers from the west side of the country for a pound a pop!

Ah, freight drivers. :???:

Well, I suppose that's alright for them. They can rattle along quite happily, safe in the knowledge that there aren't any little toerags quietly dismantling their train, getting into it's workings or planning on an unauthorised cab ride. It's just a shame that they evidently haven't got the sense to understand that their colleagues driving passenger trains have to consider such eventualities.

O L Leigh

 

[ungreat]

I was a freight driver for 11 years prior to coming to where i am now...not once did this crop up as we had issues with vandalism and thefts from freight even when I first went to freight in 1988 from passenger trains..agree totally with O L Leigh.Its like giving them your office keys at work and saying"Don't touch owt,will you...."

 

[AlexS]

Yes,a valid point,but most preserved railways are staffed by enthusiasts..no problem there for me but some DO abuse the privilege..but,a preserved railway volunteer,whether governed by parliament or not,has no more rights on Network Rail property or any TOC trains than travel ,unless working a special..basically,still members of the public.I may have read your reply wrongly,but you suggest that preserved line staff have the same rights as operational staff...not so,once off your section

No more rights than travel indeed, although still required to offer assistance to railway staff in an emergency.

There are a lot more connections between the two than most people would think however - for example several preserved railways full time staff get protected BR privs to this day including new entrants, and conversely, all ATOC and Network Rail staff get priv travel as well.

Carrying equipment to and from a rostered job is however no different to anybody else, for example a builder carrying a heavy metal torch in his bag, provided you have reason (which you can prove) to carry it there's nothing wrong - our own railways have records of who we are and what we do and in the case of somebody messing around, I imagine that would be the first port of call of the BTP - as I said, if anyone was caught using said equipment rather than merely carrying it, I would imagine a serious kicking would occur and they'd deserve to have it confiscated.

Obviously management are less bothered than you gentlemen however as the rolling stock and other items these keys relate to were sold by BR and the ROSCOs, or operating companies, to the private railways themselves!

Longleat here http://www.longleat.co.uk/shop-railway.html are a regular supplier to the private railway industry, as are National Rail Supplies/unipart - until recently Longleat were advertising carriage keys and number 1 keys on their website quite openly - now they appear to have restricted them to the catalogue which you at least have to provide a company to get hold of.

 

[O L Leigh]

Obviously management are less bothered than you gentlemen however as the rolling stock and other items these keys relate to were sold by BR and the ROSCOs, or operating companies, to the private railways themselves!

No. Management are less bothered than we are because, critically, they don't have to drive the trains. We do.

In addition, these keys are not being rendered obsolete by the introduction of new rolling stock. I don't "sign" GE's Cl360 Doodlebugs, but I know from travelling PASS on them that there is one critical component on them that uses a carriage key to operate it, and just by looking around the interior can see many other instances where one would be needed.

Quite simply, these are industry standard tools and have no place in circulation away from the railway.

O L Leigh

 

[Ascot]

Thing is though who is after to trash the railway, the ones that haven't got a clue what ticket to use on a 2 part return. They won't have a foggiest on to get a KABA key or BR1 key. Ones that do own such tools to do with their duties such as Preserved Railway are usually shattered after a turn and do not want to be jumping around any more trains or collectors who store everything in a box to preserve it and do not wish it to ware away.

 

[paul1609]

Like Ascot I have a carriage key from my work on a preserved railway and it stays on my key ring all the time along with a guards whistle. However these keys are also used out side the rail industry. In the Navy they are known as module keys for unlocking acoustic panels.

 

[AlexS]

Bus drivers on certain kinds of buses also have square ended keys to unlock panels. I know because I bought one to use on the GCR originally.

Paranoia at it's best I feel.

At the end of the day we need these items as much as you do - surely not expecting every preserved line in the country to go about changing every lock it owns on hundreds of items of rolling stock, some over a century old!

If I can break it with a carriage key I can just as easily break it with a teaspoon handle.

The square lock has been in use since the 19th century. The BR01 key is about 50 years old at the least.

Responsible companies are introducing more secure locks for safety critical things like CDL.

And at any rate, regardless of any whining, worrying or anything else, these items are in general circulation and have been for decades. Nothing could be done to change that. I imagine there's thousands of carriage keys whether in their simple form as a square ended thing or in the more complicated RCH T Key form about.

With CCTV also in place on many modern trains, it should be relatively simple to find from the footage if some twonk has broken something important.

 

[O L Leigh]

Good God!! Talk about complacency.

You may call it paranoia, whingeing or whatever else you like, but unless you're in the industry already you really have no idea exactly what sorts of things actually happen because the wrong kind of folk have got hold of railway keys. We're not just talking about opening a couple of panels and having a nosey at what's behind, but real criminal acts that can endanger people.

At the bottom of the pile there are folks letting themselves into driving cabs and nicking certain items of safety equipment requiring the train to be taken out of service, but it runs right up the scale through vandalism to include efforts to rob an entire trainful of punters at gunpoint (thankfully foiled because the driver had spotted that they'd locked all the doors shut). These people are not enthusiasts or volunteers on heritage lines, but hardened nutters who know a decent amount about the railway and how to achieve certain aims.

Where does this end? In the current security climate we have to be aware that someone with the right set of keys could hide a device absolutely anywhere in a train, gain access to the driving cab or even sabotage the train while it's making it's journey and cause a crash (I'm not making this stuff up to be alarmist, as it really is a plausible scenario). At the moment the railway seems to be relying on ignorance about such matters to ensure security. Short of changing all the locks on the railway (at what cost...?), controlling access to railway keys is our best defence.

Don't forget that the Sept 11 attacks on New York were made possible largely as a result of a few flying lessons, MS Flight Sim and the cockpit doors being left unlocked. Not a lot in the wider scheme of things, but enough to allow wrongheaded extremists to commit the worst act of terrorism in history. Now perhaps I am allowing myself to get carried away a wee bit, but it illustrates the point that it is often the small things that are easily overlooked as trivial that give people with the wrong ideas the ability to wreak the kind of havoc that we can only guess at. It's the same with railway keys. I could cause a huge train wreck with nothing more than a carriage key and a little bit of knowledge, and I understand that if I can do it anyone can.

As for CCTV; well it's not much good until after the event, by which time it could be far too late. Prevention is still better than detection.

Then again, perhaps you don't think that the security of our railway infrastructure and the safety of those who use it are very important. The toerag slipping into a driving cab for the dets really is just the thin end of the wedge. Should we ignore that? If I'm paranoid then you're in denial.

O L Leigh

 

[adamp]

Quite agree with O L Leigh, not just being a suck up, but this fella has a point.
And especially with things like TPWS Isolation in cabs, it would really be possible to bring the whole nation to a stand still if there was a plan as such - surely with a standard carriage key you could get into a cab with a gun, take the whole train basically hostage, isolate TPWS, and away we go !
...That really is a horrifying thought.
Sorry to make you drivers even more paranoid...but it has to be a realistic thought considered.
Would it not be an idea for every train to have its own key, like a car basically?
Or would this just face too much faffing around? (or if it got lost...)

 

[paul1609]

How many incidents have their been of non railway staff tampering with equipment using a carriage/ module/ bus/ nuclear power station key? The railway industry has a relatively good safety record but I cant remember one incident of this kind being reported on the RAIB website.
It would seem to me that the railways priority on safety should be Trackworker Safety, Level/ Footplate crossings, Track Maintenance, Signalling Systems in no particular order.
It is impossible to eliminate all risk and you can always come up with scenarios where a incident could possibly happen.

 

[O L Leigh]

How many incidents have their been of non railway staff tampering with equipment using a carriage/ module/ bus/ nuclear power station key? The railway industry has a relatively good safety record but I cant remember one incident of this kind being reported on the RAIB website.

That the incidents so far have not required the attentions of the RAIB is hardly the point. For the sake of something simple like control over access to railway keys, we can continue to ensure that such a circumstance is prevented. What I'm trying to get across is that this in not a trivial matter and should be taken much more seriously.

O L Leigh

 

[37402]

Well, I suppose that's alright for them. They can rattle along quite happily, safe in the knowledge that there aren't any little toerags quietly dismantling their train, getting into it's workings or planning on an unauthorised cab ride.

Although carriage keys aren't what was used here and aren't such a vital bit of kit for freight drivers, you'd be surprised! The latter happened somewhere in the Midlands a few weeks ago and "person" in question decided to push a few buttons and see what happens...

 

[thefab444]

To be fair it would sometimes be useful to have one, occasionally down here on a 10 car formation the guard will only open the front 5 doors when he should open all 10. If equipped with a carriage key you could just pop her in, OPEN LOCAL DOOR, and bob is your uncle.

Otherwise it means going to the next station, complaining, maybe getting a taxi or replacement train service wasting hours of time because the guard forgot how long the platform was!

 

[matt]

To be fair it would sometimes be useful to have one, occasionally down here on a 10 car formation the guard will only open the front 5 doors when he should open all 10. If equipped with a carriage key you could just pop her in, OPEN LOCAL DOOR, and bob is your uncle.

Otherwise it means going to the next station, complaining, maybe getting a taxi or replacement train service wasting hours of time because the guard forgot how long the platform was!

If you are not the rostered staff or indeed not staff at all then that would be a very irresponsible thing for you to do

 

[P156KWJ]

If you are not the rostered staff or indeed not staff at all then that would be a very irresponsible thing for you to do

ditto - even I wouldn't do that!

 

[thefab444]

Nowhere on the panels does it say it is for the use of staff only. Likewise on 158s, the cab end door open knob, nowhere there does it say that "Turning this knob is for staff entry purposes only".

Irresponsible maybe, saving your TOC's money on a taxi and saving your own time, yes as well as assisting potentially a number of pax.

I remember on the 13th January Pig, I think we got to Guildford and there was a problem with the rear unit's doors and an off duty staff member was going to open them but eventually the guard unlocked them.

 

[Mojo]

I think it would be irresponsible to release the local door on a train, you don't know, the train may be about to move off because it may be incorrectly positioned on the platform or may even be about to depart.

I was involved in an incident once where for some reason the door I was at did not open and the train started to depart. Luckily the next station was a ten minute walk away from the one I wanted to get off at so I could just walk back. I approached the conductor who looked at the door to see why it didn't open, and was simply advised that if it happens again to use the red alarm handle when the train is still in the platform.

 

[paul1609]

I agree it would be irresponsible to operate the doors. However there does seem to be a problem with Desiros working in multiple especially 450/444 combos with the doors. I've seen a train at havant delayed by 15 mins after passengers in the 444 at the rear operated the emergency release as the doors didnt open and the connecting door was shut.

 

[P156KWJ]

Nowhere on the panels does it say it is for the use of staff only. Likewise on 158s, the cab end door open knob, nowhere there does it say that "Turning this knob is for staff entry purposes only".

Irresponsible maybe, saving your TOC's money on a taxi and saving your own time, yes as well as assisting potentially a number of pax.

I remember on the 13th January Pig, I think we got to Guildford and there was a problem with the rear unit's doors and an off duty staff member was going to open them but eventually the guard unlocked them.

so? on all sprinters does it say on the sides next to the suspension cocks, brake cocks, M.R. isolation cocks 'for staff use only'? no, but you know you're not supposed to use them!

 

[455/8]

i'm not sure about all the other trains that other TOC's run but the ones that SWT run you wouldn't be able to open the local door on a train that has already got a key on because it would just set off an alarm at both pannels and in 8,9, 10,12 car formation desiros, junipers and 158/159s the guard may only release the front few doors because of opperational reasons normally because of short platforms and this is like a fail safe for if someone did try to use a key, but i have to agree it would be irresponsible to if you could open a local door if the guard had sealed off that unit in this way.

and i agree that even tho it doesn't say on the pannel for staff use only, you shouldn't touch it anyway because you haven't been shown/trained how to use it and you could end up causing people to get hurt if you did use it.

Alan

 

[P156KWJ]

i'm not sure about all the other trains that other TOC's run but the ones that SWT run you wouldn't be able to open the local door on a train that has already got a key on because it would just set off an alarm at both pannels and in 8,9, 10,12 car formation desiros, junipers and 158/159s the guard may only release the front few doors because of opperational reasons normally because of short platforms and this is like a fail safe for if someone did try to use a key, but i have to agree it would be irresponsible to if you could open a local door if the guard had sealed off that unit in this way.

and i agree that even tho it doesn't say on the pannel for staff use only, you shouldn't touch it anyway because you haven't been shown/trained how to use it and you could end up causing people to get hurt if you did use it.

Alan

ah yes - hadn't thought about that, the buzzer would sound continuously in the cabs, and the door switches would be dysfunctional.

 

[driver9000]

Nowhere on the panels does it say it is for the use of staff only. Likewise on 158s, the cab end door open knob, nowhere there does it say that "Turning this knob is for staff entry purposes only".

Irresponsible maybe, saving your TOC's money on a taxi and saving your own time, yes as well as assisting potentially a number of pax.

It does however say 'PRIVATE' and some of my TOCs doors have 'STAFF ACCESS ONLY' on the cab doors. Surely you are of enough intelligence to know that buttons under flaps or other such cover isnt for you to go playing around with.

 

[P156KWJ]

i'm not sure about all the other trains that other TOC's run but the ones that SWT run you wouldn't be able to open the local door on a train that has already got a key on because it would just set off an alarm at both pannels and in 8,9, 10,12 car formation desiros, junipers and 158/159s the guard may only release the front few doors because of opperational reasons normally because of short platforms and this is like a fail safe for if someone did try to use a key, but i have to agree it would be irresponsible to if you could open a local door if the guard had sealed off that unit in this way.

and i agree that even tho it doesn't say on the pannel for staff use only, you shouldn't touch it anyway because you haven't been shown/trained how to use it and you could end up causing people to get hurt if you did use it.

Alan

Seimens built trains in particular are bad for doors - class 185s sometimes have dodgy opening doors and sometimes they don't get released for nearly 30 seconds!

 

[Ascot]

Seimens built trains in particular are bad for doors - class 185s sometimes have dodgy opening doors and sometimes they don't get released for nearly 30 seconds!

Could be something that the guard has to look down the train first before releasing the doors.

 

[455/8]

Could be something that the guard has to look down the train first before releasing the doors.

yeah it is with the desiros we have to open the local door then check to see if the train is accomidated on the platform then release the doors and in the middle of the rush people can get quite unhappy about it but thats the procedure as its all recorded on the trains black box.

Alan

 

[paul1609]

I was surprised that the Desiros wernt fitted with GPS SDO like on the 377s.
That seems to work quite well these days. It certainly better than say a 450/444 combo where the fact that only the front 4 doors opens at stations like Fratton causes frequent confusion amoungst passengers and delays when they cant open the doors at the platform next to the main station building.

 

[AlexS]

Having read the past few comments about idiots posting about arming door panels I'm starting to reorganise my thoughts...

If the door doesn't open at your station and it should do hit the driver communication button or pull the chain, not start faffing around with the doors yourselves.

The point still stands that private railways would cease to exist without the use of standardised keys and as for carriage keys, they are a square piece of metal any numpty could construct out of the mechanism of a spring operated door with a handle. Operations using ex capital stock have been in operation for many decades now and generally seem to coexist perfectly happily with the national network.

The things you DON'T regularly see passed around are things like CDL keys for hauled stock keys for trains like Turbostars - these being security keys are extremely difficult to have copied and therefore don't move around nearly as much.

 

[Juniper Driver]

If you are not the rostered staff or indeed not staff at all then that would be a very irresponsible thing for you to do

Even as staff I don't get in the back cab of other companies trains anymore unlike during the BR days whenit was all one company.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was surprised that the Desiros wernt fitted with GPS SDO like on the 377s.
That seems to work quite well these days. It certainly better than say a 450/444 combo where the fact that only the front 4 doors opens at stations like Fratton causes frequent confusion amoungst passengers and delays when they cant open the doors at the platform next to the main station building.

I keep hearing many times from many different people that SWT went for the cheapest options when having the desiro's built which is very disappointing.The Driver to Guard communication has to be done on an over and out basis as both cannot talk listen at the same time.Such a shame and it can cause problems.So I dont think they would spend money on that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Having read the past few comments about idiots posting about arming door panels I'm starting to reorganise my thoughts...

If the door doesn't open at your station and it should do hit the driver communication button or pull the chain, not start faffing around with the doors yourselves.

I had an incident on a packed rush-hour train on the Queens Railway..(Windsor and Eton to you) on the branch from Staines to Windsor when kids got into the door panels and played music over the trains PA.

Easy to stop though which I did.