Carnet fine. St Neots to London KX

[jon0844]

Smartcards on the new TSGN franchise can't come soon enough, when we can then have carnet tickets done that way instead (as in users can simply get a free journey after 9 paid-for ones).

 

[bb21]

Just playing devils advocate for a minute. You knew that both tickets are Carnet tickets so surely you know that the point behind putting the date on is because the ticket should be only used once and on the date written on it. Why would you not need to put the date on the one without the boxes?

If there are no boxes, then it could be argued that writing on the ticket defaces the ticket, which I believe is also not permitted. (Meanwhile in the real world, ...)

I would be quite cautious too in that situation about writing on the ticket without seeking out a member of staff first.

 

[martybabes]

Great to see people stand up to FCC, but make sure you are prepared to fight the case in court if necessary, which would require proper legal representation.

No it doesn't. But it might be helpful.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

No it doesn't. But it might be helpful.

Indeed!

Burns v FCC ( [2012] EWHC 1305 ) comes to mind, to which it was the Company who didn't see fit to instruct Counsel. And not for the first time.

 

[martybabes]

While trying not to sound like Uncle Albert, many years ago...

...when I was prosecuting a limited company that was not represented, the Magistrates simply adjourned the case to allow attendance either by the Co Sec or its solicitors. My application to proceed notwithstanding the absence of the Co Sec was not successful!

/Uncle Albert

 

[Shamblesuk]

So here's the good and (not so good) news. Firstly, I have won my appeal. However, I'm (a) not sure why, it appears maybe a technicality on issuing the PFN, and (b) am not getting back all my money.

The IPFAS response says, quote:

"It is a requirement of the Penalty Fare Rules 2002 that the penalty fare notice should be completed in accordance with all parts of Rule 8.3................it has been concluded on this occasion that the notice is not wholly compliant with Rule 8.3"

No mention of the terms of my appeal whatsoever, why I was charged, indeed what I should do in future (they are still issuing tickets without the boxes). Do I take it here that the penalty officer just filled something out wrong on the form - I can scan it if that will help?

Secondly, I appealed against the £20 fine PLUS the £16.50 I had to pay for my single ticket. They are only offering to refund the £20 LESS the £4.70 I should have paid between St Neots (where I boarded) and Biggleswade (where I was fined).

Should I push for the full refund of £36.50, or be happy wioth the £15.30 I actually got.

Thoughts?

 

[cuccir]

Rule 8.3 in full:

8.3 If a person wants to appeal against the penalty fare, or does not
pay the penalty fare in full immediately, the authorised
collector must give them a written notice setting out:
a the identity of the authorised collector and the name of the
train operator that he or she is acting for;
b the amount of the penalty fare and why it has been charged;
c the address to which they must send payment;
d the ways in which they can pay;
e that they must pay within 21 days of receiving the notice;
f that they can ask for a copy of these rules and a summary of
the operator’s approved penalty fares scheme by writing or
sending an e-mail to a given address or calling a given
phone number; and
g that they are entitled to appeal against the penalty fare by
sending a written statement to a given address, within 21
days of the day on which the penalty fare is charged,
explaining why they should not have to pay the penalty
fare.

So yes, it sounds like they've decided to go an easy route for them and FCC and try to close this on a technicality.

I'd keep pushing, though it may now be appropriate to deal directly with FCC rather than IRCAS?

 

[maniacmartin]

I believe they are referring to section 8.3 of the Penalty Fare Rules
EDIT: cuccir beat me to it! See above

So it does appear they have granted an appeal on a technicality on how the paperwork was filled in, and not considered your actual reasons for appeal, especially if they don't even mention them in their response. I would reply mentioning the boxes again, and press for a full refund

 

[Shamblesuk]

OK will do, interestingly they also add that "Any applications for refunds on tickets must be made through a local booking office". Knowing the intelligence of the staff at St Neots, suggest not even bother?

 

[sheff1]

All booking offices should carry forms to complete to request a ticket refund. In this case though I would be more inclined to write direct to FCC Customer Services.