Carnet fine. St Neots to London KX

[Shamblesuk]

Hi,

Would appreciate your views, here are the facts:
Carnet bought between St Neots and London KX - expires 20 October, I used the ticket on 16th October
Unlike the tickets I have from London KX to St Neots, it does not have date boxes for me to write in
I therefore believed that this was not necessary, so long as I put the ticket in the machine (genuinely - excuse me if I was naive)
I was fined £20 and had to buy a new ticket for not writing the date on the ticket even though I showed him a return ticket that had been completed with the return date (same day). He said that even though there weren't any boxes I should have written the date "at the top, somewhere")
He referred me to T&Cs which state (quote from website) "Passengers MUST validate the ticket by completing the travel date in permanent ink in the boxes on the top of the ticket in the direction of travel they wish to travel before commencing their journey."

So excusing my naivety, do I have recourse to state that I couldn't comply with the T&Cs therefore their argument is invalid?


_____________________________________________________________________

 

[bb21]

Welcome.

Do you by any chance have a picture of the ticket?

 

[Shamblesuk]

Welcome.

Do you by any chance have a picture of the ticket?

Attached

 

[Shamblesuk]

Sorry. Didn't upload properly.

 

[bb21]

I think that you may have a case.

Yes, the conditions state that you must enter the date of use in the box, however if the boxes are not printed then you will be defacing the ticket by writing on it, which is also not permitted, so really you have been sold an unusable ticket technically speaking.

 

[Shamblesuk]

Top photo I what I was fined using. Bottom photo is a blank return ticket from KX

 

[FGW_DID]

It says it's, Issued as: 05 coupons

What were the other 4 parts, did they not have the boxes on or were they exactly the same as the one shown?

 

[Shamblesuk]

All 5 tickets were identical in every way

 

[Shamblesuk]

I mean it was a book of 5 carnets

 

[maniacmartin]

It looks like an issuing error. Boxes should have been printed on the ticket. I also think you may have a case here.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I'm confused.

The ticket coupons which Shamblesuk DOES have boxes printed on them, (in the orange band at the top), where it also has printed : "enter date on use".

I would advise paying the Penalty and remembering to complete the boxes next time.

 

[Muzer]

I'm confused.

The ticket coupons which Shamblesuk DOES have boxes printed on them, (in the orange band at the top), where it also has printed : "enter date on use".

I would advise paying the Penalty and remembering to complete the boxes next time.

That photo is just for comparison. The ticket on the left is the one he was issued.

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm confused.

The ticket on the left is the one that was used (and has no boxes) and the ticket on the right is just for comparision. At least that's my understanding.

 

[yorkie]

Were you issued with a £20 Penalty Fare, and have you paid the full amount or is the full, or a partial, amount outstanding?

I'd like to see you win against FCC on this matter.

Have you made a complaint to Passenger Focus?

I'd be appealing, contacting Passenger Focus and also report the matter to the DfT as a possible franchise breach. The DfT are aware of FCC's dubious antics regarding carnets.

I know some people will say that's over the top, but this is just one example, out of many, of FCC treating customers like scum.

 

[jkdd77]

When precisely was the OP caught, what precisely was he/she asked to pay, are there any obvious errors on the PF notice (such as no signature) and did he/she pay it all at the time?

The reason I ask is because payment of the PF discharges liability to pay the single fare for the portion of the journey for which the PF was charged (i.e. to the next stop); however, a passenger who has been charged a PF may be additionally required to pay the full single fare from the next station to their destination if he or she remains on the same train.

I have heard anecdotally of cases where PFs have been incorrectly issued en-route for the entire journey, rather than to the next stop, or where a passenger has been charged both a PF and a single.

I feel the OP has a strong moral case, but the TOC would argue that it was his/her responsibility to check that the ticket was correct, physically able to be validated, and actually validated prior to travel, and that, ultimately, he/she failed to present a valid ticket on demand.

If the amount charged was incorrect, then the OP may be able to get a (likely partial) refund without needing to argue the point regarding the carnet.

 

[jon0844]

Given you can't have removed the date box, it's not really your fault it was missing and didn't tell you to fill in the box (which isn't there).

I'd definitely ask for your PF back and ask FCC to ensure that the tickets are printed correctly in the future.

However, I'd also say that in the future, just write the date on the back as a backup. I did so even when writing the date on the front, as quite often it ended up looking like the ticket had been tampered with simply because my pen didn't work properly first time.

 

[FGW_DID]

Were you issued with a £20 Penalty Fare, and have you paid the full amount or is the full, or a partial, amount outstanding?

I'd like to see you win against FCC on this matter.

Have you made a complaint to Passenger Focus?

I'd be appealing, contacting Passenger Focus and also report the matter to the DfT as a possible franchise breach. The DfT are aware of FCC's dubious antics regarding carnets.

I know some people will say that's over the top, but this is just one example, out of many, of FCC treating customers like scum.

Ooooh, Sounds a bit anti FCC, you haven't been sending anonymous letters to Forum members about FCC Data Protection breaches, have you?

 

[Skimble19]

What is interesting is that it appears you picked the faulty tickets up from a machine, I assume after buying them online?

Ooooh, Sounds a bit anti FCC, you haven't been sending anonymous letters to Forum members about FCC Data Protection breaches, have you?

Was just about to post something similar to your comment myself

 

[Shamblesuk]

What is interesting is that it appears you picked the faulty tickets up from a machine, I assume after buying them online?


Was just about to post something similar to your comment myself

To answer some of the questions I was charged £20 penalty fare and on the PF as reason the conductor wrote "carnet not validated". I was also charged for a new ticket from Biggleswade to KX for which I couldn't use my railcard but I'm fine with that fact.

He also retained my ticket which I again assumed is policy.

The tickets were bought online and collected from a machine. The comparison tickets that show the boxes were bought at the counter.

I'm very surprised that there haven't been any posts of this nature. Has anyone here heard of carnets being printed without the offending boxes?

 

[ModernRailways]

To answer some of the questions I was charged £20 penalty fare and on the PF as reason the conductor wrote "carnet not validated". I was also charged for a new ticket from Biggleswade to KX for which I couldn't use my railcard but I'm fine with that fact.

He also retained my ticket which I again assumed is policy.

The tickets were bought online and collected from a machine. The comparison tickets that show the boxes were bought at the counter.

I'm very surprised that there haven't been any posts of this nature. Has anyone here heard of carnets being printed without the offending boxes?

This sounds like it may actually be a problem with the TVM.

I'd certainly request your money back for both the Penalty Fare and for the Biggleswade to KX ticket.

I would also ask for a full refund of the carnet or for a new full set of carnet tickets to be sent out to you.

Then follow the rest of Yorkie's advice. I'm sure he will help you to get a result!

 

[jon0844]

I'm very surprised that there haven't been any posts of this nature. Has anyone here heard of carnets being printed without the offending boxes?

No, I haven't.

I'm not sure the error is enough that your ticket might one day be worth a fortune to a collector - but it certainly appears quite unique.

If someone got those the very first time they'd bought a set of carnet tickets, I can certainly see that they wouldn't put a date on the ticket at all - and merely assume that putting it through a gate (and consequently, losing it at the destination*) would suffice.

* Why would anyone even think of the obvious fraud potential by not putting it through a gate, or even that the ticket isn't always taken by a gate - especially in the case of a London Terminals one used at King's Cross etc. The thing is, that's potential fraud which is a problem for the TOC, but not really of any concern to an innocent user that was genuinely using the ticket just the one time.

 

[185]

This sounds like it may actually be a problem with the TVM.

I agree. Chances are, it will be all TVMs issuing the same non-standard print layout. Whoever it is from FCC that added the carnet flows onto the ticket machines probably hasn't added the boxes correctly.

Tis another poor show from FCC.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Whoever it is from FCC that added the carnet flows onto the ticket machines probably hasn't added the boxes correctly.

Or one ticket machine manufacturer (perhaps Scheidt & Bachmann?) hasn't programmed their machine to use the different print format for the carnet ticket types. Perhaps someone in one part of FCC has declined to pay S&B the extra charges they demand for making this sort of change, and someone in another part of FCC has overlooked this and assumed all their TVMs are compatible with the carnet layout.

 

[CyrusWuff]

The other question that springs to mind is that of who sold the ticket (NLC 7172, which doesn't appear in the list in The Manual)? It's possible that it's a retailing issue, as well as a fulfilment one.

 

[34D]

Is there a box on the _rear_ of the ticket marked "endorsements".

I hope you win this, as it just seems unjust. Are you prepared to fight? Send a few letters?

 

[Shamblesuk]

Nothing on the back about endorsements. I plan to write with a soft complaint about it not being clear etcetera and if they're not budging ill throw a terms and conditions note back at them.

I ain't paying this fine I can assure you of that.

 

[34D]

Nothing on the back about endorsements. I plan to write with a soft complaint about it not being clear etcetera and if they're not budging ill throw a terms and conditions note back at them.

I ain't paying this fine I can assure you of that.

Due to non-payment of the PF potentially leading to CRIMINAL sanctions I think our advice would be to pay it, and then recover your money.

 

[yorkie]

I ain't paying this fine I can assure you of that.

Great to see people stand up to FCC, but make sure you are prepared to fight the case in court if necessary, which would require proper legal representation.

Would you use a solicitor who has already had experience of standing up to FCC, or do you have your own solicitor in mind?

 

[revenueadvice]

Ah yet again Carnet tickets the bain of the revenue departments lives. I agree boxes should have been added and when I see this incorrectly printed tickets I will generally advise the passenger that they still need to write the date on even if the box isn't printed. You definitely have a case. If it was a penalty fare I would appeal against it and send in a copy of the terms and conditions for the Carnet ticket. Which states that if you fail to fill in the Carnet ticket you will either be asked to pay the full fare for your journey or if fraud is suspected you can be reported for prosecution it does not mention a penalty fare. Although my opinion is that the penalty fare rules state if you fail to present a valid ticket you can be charged a penalty fare but legally I would assume that the terms and conditions on your ticket would what has to be adhered to. Scan a copy of the penalty fare notice in. I will tell you if its not been filled in correctly. Unless it has your name and address on it as I don't want you giving your details online....of course if it doesn't have your name and address on then it isn't filled in correctly

Just playing devils advocate for a minute. You knew that both tickets are Carnet tickets so surely you know that the point behind putting the date on is because the ticket should be only used once and on the date written on it. Why would you not need to put the date on the one without the boxes?

Anyway I would say it is definitely worth appealing. Carnet tickets are the source of so many problems. What would be helpful would be a validation machine at stations so the ticket can only be validated by the machine. The same way Oyster cards can only be validated by touching in. This would stop a lot of disputes for example people filling in tickets on the train when they see an RPI coming and also the cases of where pens will not write on the tickets and it can look as though the ticket has been altered. Anyway good luck with your appeal.

 

[reb0118]

I'm very surprised that there haven't been any posts of this nature. Has anyone here heard of carnets being printed without the offending boxes?

Carnets or flexi-pass tickets can be printed via a guard's/conductor's/(A)TE's avantix machine, & as they will print on normal stock, there will be no boxes to fill in.

Carnets should therefore probably not be issued from avantix however it does happen on occasion esp. if a local booking office is closed and mobile staff are covering.

In that case passengers should be advised to fill the date out in permanent ink on any suitable blank part of the front of the ticket - in most cases it is regulars doing this so they know the score................

..................................................................... (2-0 to Scotland! )