Carmont (near Stonehaven) derailment - 12 August 2020

[the sniper]

i imagine that asking the guard to be a second pair of eyes is a very sensible thing to do and would say that is almost certainly what happened.

I wouldn't assume that.

 

[CC 72100]

I wouldn't assume that.

Especially to do so would leave no Guard with the passengers, which is a big no-no.*

*unless there was another Guard on the train who was fit and competent to assist.

 

[the sniper]

Especially to do so would leave no Guard with the passengers, which is a big no-no.*

*unless there was another Guard on the train who was fit and competent to assist.

The rule book does include circumstances where the Guard can be in the cab to assist the Driver.

 

[ainsworth74]

ASLEF have released the following:

Tribute Paid to Brett McCullough
12 August 2020

Kevin Lindsay, ASLEF’s organiser in Scotland, today paid tribute to Brett McCullough, the train driver who died in the rail crash at Stonehaven, Aberdeenshire, yesterday [Wednesday 12 August].



He said: ‘The tragic accident at Stonehaven has affected everyone in the railway family, but especially the family and friends of the three people who died, and the six people who were injured.’



Brett McCullough, 45, who was married with three children, and worked out of Aberdeen depot, lived not far from the scene of yesterday’s crash.



‘Brett was originally from Bromley, in Kent, but moved to Aberdeenshire to marry Stephanie. He worked as a gas fitter up here, and was servicing the boiler of an Aberdeen train driver in 2011 when they started to talk about the railway, and about driving trains.



‘Brett was fascinated by what he heard, successfully applied for a job, did his driver’s training for a year to earn his key, and entered service with ScotRail in December 2013.



‘He was a dedicated train driver, who loved his job, and was very popular at the depot with his colleagues. He was also a devoted family man who loved his wife and children – two girls and a boy. Brett thought the world of his family, and we all thought the world of him.’



Kevin added: ‘As train drivers our thoughts are not only with Brett’s family, but also with the family and friends of the conductor who died, Donald Dinnie, and the passenger on the 6.38 service out of Aberdeen. Our thoughts and prayers are with all those who were injured and taken to hospital.’



STATEMENT ON BEHALF OF THE FAMILY:

‘Words cannot describe the utterly devastating effect of Brett’s death on his family and friends. We have lost a wonderful husband, father, and son in the most awful of circumstances. Brett was the most decent and loving human being we have ever known and his passing leaves a huge void in all our lives.



‘We would like to thank the emergency services for their heroic efforts in helping everyone affected by this tragedy and for all the messages of support and condolence we have received. We are an extremely private family and ask that we are allowed to grieve without intrusion and hope that members of the press will understand our need to be left in peace at this time.’

Tribute paid to Brett McCullough | ASLEF

Kevin Lindsay, ASLEF’s organiser in Scotland, today paid tribute to Brett McCullough, the train driver who died in the rail crash at Stonehaven, Aberdeenshire, yesterday [Wednesday 12 August].

www.aslef.org.uk

 

[simon_t123]

https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/fp...-scale-of-devastation-stonehaven-train-crash/

Was searching for any new or alternative video footage from around the incident area, found the above on one of the local papers websites of what claims to be new drone footage, perhaps alternative footage from the day but what's interesting at the far left of shot at the very start is what looks like a form of landslide ?

I could imagine heavy rains to gush downwards and create what looks like a gully heading down towards the river. Whether the landslide was there before or after the incident can't be proven from this footage alone, but tracing scars in in the ground from that point and to the start of the bridge is it at all possible the leading PC could of derailed and jumped across the river so to speak heading off track at the side / start of the bridge ?

The rear PC powers at the same rate as the front in an HST I believe so would likely of driven onwards momentarily pushing the stock in front of it to the eventual resting places.

It's provoking a lot of thought and interest which is healthy, I hope the resulting enquiry finds all it needs to reflect on the events as they were and reaches some form of conclusion.

A truly devastating, sad incident, thoughts with all those involved or connected.

 

[Swanny200]

Especially to do so would leave no Guard with the passengers, which is a big no-no.*

*unless there was another Guard on the train who was fit and competent to assist.

It has been stated that the person who went to the signal box was an off duty conductor, my initial mention in regards the driver and guard was that those two fatalities were announced pretty much straight away which made me think that possibly the guard was acting as a lookout for the driver in the cab and that maybe the off duty conductor would be deemed fit and competent to assist.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

People actually use The Sun for anything other than toilet paper?

It does I believe generate hot air in wood burning stoves too.

 

[Journeyman]

I must say the response message from the Netherlands is very decent of them, for what it’s worth. The railway family extends well beyond our national borders.

I worked for London Underground at the time of the 7/7 bombings, and not long afterwards a massive card appeared in the lobby of 55 Broadway signed by dozens of employees of the New York Subway. It was hugely moving.

 

[hst43102]

Nearly everything in the engine room is extremely solidly attached to the loco. If the collision is bad enough to cause it to move you're probably a goner anyway. Far better in there.

The driver will move! I don't know about you, but I'd prefer not to have my head thrown against the engine block...

 

[Banana]

Yes, looks much clearer what happened now. Smoking gun of the landslip just before a bridge that is missing its parapet.

Unfortunate set of circumstances and difficult to predict.

I suspect you will find 100s of similar stretches of line in the UK.

 

[Swanny200]

Yes, looks much clearer what happened now. Smoking gun of the landslip just before a bridge that is missing its parapet.

Unfortunate set of circumstances and difficult to predict.

I suspect you will find 100s of similar stretches of line in the UK.

You only have to look further down the country at Polmont and what the storm has done there, to bring the rails to a halt, can't imagine what damage that amount of water will do beneath the track there.

 

[Mojo]

https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/fp...-scale-of-devastation-stonehaven-train-crash/

Was searching for any new or alternative video footage from around the incident area, found the above on one of the local papers websites of what claims to be new drone footage, perhaps alternative footage from the day but what's interesting at the far left of shot at the very start is what looks like a form of landslide ? I could imagine heavy rains to gush downwards and create what looks like a gully heading down towards the river. Whether the landslide was there before or after the incident can't be proven from this footage alone, but tracing scars in in the ground from that point and to the start of the bridge is it at all possible the leading PC could of derailed and jumped across the river so to speak heading off track at the side / start of the bridge ? The rear PC powers at the same rate as the front in an HST I believe so would likely of driven onwards momentarily pushing the stock in front of it to the eventual resting places.

This video was shared and discussed further up thread.

 

[simon_t123]

This video was shared and discussed further up thread.

Thanks.

 

[CC 72100]

The rule book does include circumstances where the Guard can be in the cab to assist the Driver.

I'm well aware, but individual TOC policies may restrict this depending on formation if it meant nobody with the passengers (as is the case on a HST).

 

[fruitmachine]

New aerial footage was shown on Reporting Scotland. It looks like the parapet on the up-line side of the bridge is missing many but not all of the coping stones, but no more than that.
You can see at the Left where they are still present.

 

[tiptoptaff]

I'm well aware, but individual TOC policies may restrict this depending on formation if it meant nobody with the passengers (as is the case on a HST).

Indeed - in this situation, where, by all accounts it seems as though the area had been transited by this train and a train in the other direction, and the weather and light conditions were improving, that it's highly unlikely that the guard was in the cab

 

[kickin aff]

BBC Scotland have just said that Police Scotland are to run an investigation alongside that of the RAIB.

It will surely be BTP assisting as Police Scotland have no jurisdiction on the railways?

 

[ossy5190]

In this BBC article there is a picture of the crushed coach lying across the tracks with the letter D clearly displayed beside the door. If the train was in the correct formation then surley this should have been the lead coach?

Stonehaven train derailment: Tributes paid to three victims

Brett McCullough, Donald Dinnie and Christopher Stuchbury died when the train left the track near Stonehaven.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[tiptoptaff]

It will surely be BTP assisting as Police Scotland have no jurisdiction on the railways?

This was covered upthread, and due to Scottish law, it may well be Police Scotland's jurisdiction

 

[tiptoptaff]

In this BBC article there is a picture of the crushed coach lying across the tracks with the letter D clearly displayed beside the door. If the train was in the correct formation then surley this should have been the lead coach?

Stonehaven train derailment: Tributes paid to three victims

Brett McCullough, Donald Dinnie and Christopher Stuchbury died when the train left the track near Stonehaven.

www.bbc.co.uk

If you combine that photo with the aerial footage, D looks to be the one that's down the embankment

 

[LowLevel]

i imagine that asking the guard to be a second pair of eyes is a very sensible thing to do and would say that is almost certainly what happened.

I disagree. My first reaction was "the carriage with the guard's office seems to be the least damaged of the lot, what on earth happened?"

My partner, who like me is also a guard, summed up what to me, considering all that has been said about Donald Dinnie by his colleagues and also his regular passengers, is the likeliest thing to have happened: severe service disruption, with the train heading back to where it came from - what would a good guard be doing COVID or no COVID? What would we do? He would most likely have been in the train, talking to his passengers, reassuring them and keeping them up to date with what was going on.

I think you should consider that avenue before the far less likely one that he was on the foot plate.

 

[the sniper]

I disagree. My first reaction was "the carriage with the guard's office seems to be the least damaged of the lot, what on earth happened?"

When I initially saw that carriage at the back, I hoped that they'd have been in there.

Equally, I'd guess that carriage is where the member of staff who was travelling pass/off duty (and seemingly went to the signal box) was located, luckily.

 

[Arrpi87]

Thinking about how most of the passengers seemed to get away with much more minor injuries, this may be linked to the reversal of the train back towards it's origin station.

When you get on a train, most people will probably sit facing the direction of travel, so when the train was reversed many of the passengers were probably now facing 'backwards', therefore allowing their seat to take a lot of the impact forces instead of flying forward over tables and into the seats in front.

 

[Tom Quinne]

Just seen the Telegraph reporting that an off duty conductor travelling on the train raised the alarm by walking to the signal box

Its behind a pay wall so here goes....

What an extraordinary sense of duty the guard had, after all the horror he or she reverted to Railway 101 protect the line.

My thoughts go out to all those involved, crew, passengers, first responders and those often forgot about the signallers, moms and controllers.

 

[ainsworth74]

Good evening everyone,

I'm going to ask that we leave the police discussion from here on out. The relevant information has been posted we don't need to go any further into it at this stage. If there are more general queries about jurisdiction then they would be suitable in a new thread.

I think it's probably also time to draw a line under the discussion regarding where to go or where a driver might go during an accident. I think it's been covered enough and don't think we need to dwell on it further.

Many thanks to all for your contributions and for the most point treading the lines we've been asking you to so well.

Thanks,
ainsworth74

 

[92002]

When I initially saw that carriage at the back, I hoped that they'd have been in there.

Equally, I'd guess that carriage is where the member of staff who was travelling pass/off duty (and seemingly went to the signal box) was located, luckily.

The carriage with the guards office is the first class and buffet area. So probably where the other conductor would be.

 

[cockneyviking]

A terrible accident, too early to speculate, let the authorities deal with the case, as a driver my heart goes out to the train crew, I've added to the 1T08 GoFundMe page,

 

[the sniper]

The carriage with the guards office is the first class and buffet area. So probably where the other conductor would be.

Indeed.

 

[MadMac]

Daft as it may seem, signallers have had their PTS's withdrawn so therefore aren't allowed to go onto the track to secure the points or do anything else. the reversal wasn't an emergency so the procedure would be to wait for a MOM to arrive. I'm not saying that in this instance that was done, or indeed if in the more remote areas of the country the signallers have kept their PTS, but I was told this by a signaller that retired a few years ago.

Trailing crossover in the middle of nowhere probably wouldn’t have facing point locks and therefore need to be secured for movement of a passenger train. I’m thinking that after the train initially encountered the obstruction on the way south, there would have been various discussions with the TOC and NR to decide what to do, possibly even sending someone to see if the obstruction can be cleared within a reasonable timeframe. It’s not outwith the bounds of possibility that the train sat for a couple of hours while decisions were being made.

 

[Banana]

Why would you need a "second pair of eyes" in the driver's cab for? There's only so much area that's going to be important - and it's directly in front of you. It's not like an aircraft where a threat could come from any dimension.