Carmont (near Stonehaven) derailment - 12 August 2020

[py_megapixel]

I still cant believe this BBC article around the ‘facts’ of the derailment, updated only 50mins ago still has at least two errors, the biggest of which it states there were 12 people onboard

I'm still not clear on that.... was it 6 passengers and 2 staff? I know there was also a staff member travelling as a passenger involved somewhere?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

What part of the video are you referring to with regards the slip? The only slip visible is where it derailed....and we don't know how much of that was the slip itself or as a result of the derailment.

About 1 second in on LHS of screen you can see a slip site and again at about 40 seconds the site is top of screen then 53 seconds to the ends LHS screen. None of media footage yesterday captures that end of the line to know whether it was there yesterday or not. For me the fact coach 1 has so much fire damage yet it is a fair distance from 42140 infers it was fire damaged before separation which would be conducive with the fire being instigated as a result of the fuel igniting between this slip site and the final resting place.

All speculation at this juncture but having conducted investigations alongside RAIB they along with NR's engineers will quickly be able to diagnose events and generally RAIB release an interim report.

 

[4REP]

Looking at the position the train is in I cannot find the other power car 431140.
There is a coach half burnt but where did the other power car land and caught fire.

 

[LAX54]

Screen grab from the video showing the slip at the top-left of the image.
View attachment 82179

Based on that picture, it looks like it came off at the top of that picture, onto the bridge, and over the side ? at line speed, would have been mere seconds you can sort of see how the coaches ended up as they did, so tajic, and shows how things / life can change in an instant, that you have no control over

 

[RPI]

Looking at the position the train is in I cannot find the other power car 431140.
There is a coach half burnt but where did the other power car land and caught fire.

Behind the burnt out coach by the digger

 

[Bletchleyite]

Drone footage of the site shows a slip before the left hand bend onto the bridge. (Not known if this was before or after the train passed by).

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It does indeed. Rather looks like that may have been the point of actual derailment.

About 1 second in on LHS of screen you can see a slip site and again at about 40 seconds the site is top of screen. None of media footage yesterday captures that end of the line to know whether it was there yesterday or not. For me the fact coach 1 has so much fire damage yet it is a fair distance from 42140 infers it was fire damaged before separation which would be conducive with the fire being instigated as a result of the fuel igniting between this slip site and the final resting place.

I'd think more likely the power car was leaking fuel and that coach landed on top of a diesel fire caused by it doing so.

 

[Royston Vasey]

About 1 second in on LHS of screen you can see a slip site and again at about 40 seconds the site is top of screen. None of media footage yesterday captures that end of the line to know whether it was there yesterday or not. For me the fact coach 1 has so much fire damage yet it is a fair distance from 42140 infers it was fire damaged before separation which would be conducive with the fire being instigated as a result of the fuel igniting between this slip site and the final resting place.

All speculation at this juncture but having conducted investigations alongside RAIB they along with NR's engineers will quickly be able to diagnose events and generally RAIB release an interim report.

The smoking gun...

It's also in shot for quite some time from 0:53. About one train length south of the final resting place.

Whatever criticism NR take about deforested embankments and their stability, the slip has occurred on a pretty densely wooded embankment.

 

[grumpyoldman01]

It will be. It is also the reason that the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service are mentioned.

Thanks for that; I know that there are some differences between Scottish and English Law, hence my question

 

[Royston Vasey]

Did the bridge have a masonry wall or a basic temporary-looking metal guard rail? Whatever it had, it has gone.

 

[alistairlees]

Screen grab from the video showing the slip at the top-left of the image.
View attachment 82179

The track appears to be buckled just before the bridge, next to the group of three or four people.

 

[Swanny200]

The track appears to be buckled just before the bridge, next to the group of three or four people.

Was just about to post that, in terms of the masonry, I would take the opposite side of the bridge to speculate that it was all masonry although from the drone angle, a lot of it looks to have been taken out and does not look very high either although it could just be from the angle

 

[Furrball]

Did the bridge have a masonry wall or a basic temporary-looking metal guard rail? Whatever it had, it has gone.

The missing bridge masonry gives a little more logic to what could have occured.

Landslip causes initial derailment and power car impact bridge structure, slow rapidly whilst momentum pushes train forward. Debris forms a ramp causing the carriage to overturn

 

[Swanny200]

The missing bridge masonry gives a little more logic to what could have occured.

Landslip causes initial derailment and power car impact bridge structure, slow rapidly whilst momentum pushes train forward. Debris forms a ramp causing the carriage to overturn

I would imagine even at half linespeed (30 to 40mph) by time you hit that and have time to react to shut off power (if you even had time to react) it would have been far too late to avoid it.

 

[vdriud]

Screen grab from the video showing the slip at the top-left of the image.
View attachment 82179

There is not much left of 43140....

 

[matchmaker]

The police involvement is to assist in determining whether or not something happened that broke the law and that contributed to the accident and subsequent deaths and to ensure that any relevant evidence is gathered/preserved to support any possible subsequent prosecution. That needn't involve the people who have sadly died, it could be at a negligence at corporate (or any other) level, or anything else involved in the incident ie contractors working nearby, criminal actions by third parties etc.

Please note I'm not speculating whether anything unlawful happened or not, more able people than I will be involved in deciding that and it appears to be a horrible set of circumstances combining, but that is why the police are involved.

That's surely the job of BTP and not Police Scotland?

 

[Swanny200]

Not at all. A Fatal Accident Inquiry will require to be held, as both the driver and conductor died during the course of their employment. Mandatory under the Fatal Accidents and Sudden Deaths Inquiry (Scotland) Act 1976.

That's surely the job of BTP and not Police Scotland?

Under Scottish law I believe it is still under Police Scotland's jurisdiction, I am not 100% sure if the BTP have the same role in Scotland as they do in England or whether devo powers have reduced their role.

 

[92002]

I still cant believe this BBC article around the ‘facts’ of the derailment, updated only 50mins ago still has at least two errors, the biggest of which it states there were 12 people onboard.... Stonehaven train derailment: What we know https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-53764992

Quoted on BBC Scotland as 3 staff and 6 passengers on board. Thankfully an early empty service which could have been a lot worse.

Also quoted today that Police Scotland are working alongside the RAIB.

The BBC have finally caught up that the train was heading back to Aberdeen after speaking to control. So had passed Carmont earlier before the landslip.

Thoughts to all involved and the emergency services.

With the limited access clearing the site could just be a problem.

Quite a bendy site at Carmont so not much of a clear view of the track ahead. If my memory is correct the track access road crosses an open Weir than goes under the tracks. Which could have overcome the drainage pipe and was maybe the cause of the landslip.

 

[158756]

That definitely confirms the train was proceeding north on the down line when the incident occurred. If the material visible on the track had diverted the derailed power car sufficiently from the alignment, it may have fallen from the embankment and bridge encountered very shortly afterwards, dragging the following carriages with it. Greater provision of derailment containment measures such as extra guardrails inside the four foot in such areas might help.

From where it's ended up did the power car actually get to the end of the bridge? It looks to me more like it's fallen close to the end of the bridge rather than gone down the embankment.

 

[MarkyT]

The missing bridge masonry gives a little more logic to what could have occured.

Landslip causes initial derailment and power car impact bridge structure, slow rapidly whilst momentum pushes train forward. Debris forms a ramp causing the carriage to overturn

The parapet was unlikely to have offered much resistance to the force of the moving train which is why I suggest the dominant initial mechanism may have been that the derailed power car was sufficiently off-centre to break through the parapet and topple from the bridge, dragging following vehicles with it. The parapet seems to have been completely stripped from the derailment side of the bridge and at least partially from the opposite side.

 

[rebmcr]

Under Scottish law I believe it is still under Police Scotland's jurisdiction, I am not 100% sure if the BTP have the same role in Scotland as they do in England or whether devo powers have reduced their role.

The Railway Policing (Scotland) Bill was delayed past 01 April 2019 and I don't believe it has yet been enacted. It would have replaced BTP with a Rail Policing Unit within Police Scotland.

 

[MarkyT]

From where it's ended up did the power car actually get to the end of the bridge? It looks to me more like it's fallen close to the end of the bridge rather than gone down the embankment.

I think it's highly likely it fell from the bridge. While falling it would still have some forward momentum of course.

 

[RPI]

Just seen the Telegraph reporting that an off duty conductor travelling on the train raised the alarm by walking to the signal box

Its behind a pay wall so here goes....

An “determined and courageous” off-duty conductor climbed out of a train wreckage after a derailment in Aberdeenshire left three people dead and walked to a signal box to raise the alarm, it has emerged.

Grant Shapps, the Transport Secretary, visited the site of the deadliest rail disaster in the UK 16 years on Thursday and has ordered an urgent review of high-risk trackside slopes across Britain.

The accident left the train driver, Brett McCullough, conductor Donald Dinnie and a passenger dead. Mr McCullough's family released a statement saying his death had been "utterly devastating", describing him as the "most decent and loving human being we have ever known.

Mr Shapps was taken in a helicopter to survey the scene, which he described as “horrendous”.

There were claims that the conductor who helped raise the alarm by walking to a signal box “walked a mile” to get help. It is believed that the crash happened in a mobile phone black spot.

A member of the public is also believed to have contacted emergency services after seeing smoke billowing from the scene near Stonehaven on Wednesday morning.

“One of the things I’ve asked Network Rail to do immediately in the next few hours and days is to do a very quick resilience check to make sure that there’s no other situation like this,” Mr Shapps told The Daily Telegraph.

“I’ve then ordered an [interim] report from them [to be] on my desk for September 1st, where I want them to check the resilience of the whole of the GB network with this specifically in mind.”

The 6:38am service between Aberdeen and Glasgow Queen St is believed to have hit a landslide at speed as it returned in the direction of Aberdeen, having found the southbound line blocked following a night of storms and torrential downpours.

It remains unclear exactly when the collision occurred, with police not becoming aware of the incident until three hours after the train set off. The train crashed only around 20 miles from Aberdeen, the city it originally left from, with one carriage careering down a steep embankment.

The Secretary of State said there were “obvious questions” about what role the weather played in the tragedy, why the train was heading back north when the accident happened and the speed it was travelling at. He said these would be “left to the professionals” with investigations already well underway.

However, he raised the possibility that climate change, increasing the frequency of extreme weather events, could have been a factor. Boris Johnson said on Wednesday that a month’s worth of rain had fallen in the area in a very short space of time.

“We’re going to have to take a lot of Victorian infrastructure which wasn’t built for this extreme weather necessarily and we’re going to have to upgrade it to be able to withstand the weather,” Mr Shapps said. “But as I say, you might think you know what went on there but the experts will tell you what really happened and we need to understand that before we jump to any conclusions.”

Network Rail said it would use in-house engineers, specialist contractors and helicopter surveys to assess dozens of sites with "similar characteristics" to the remote stretch of railway where the service derailed.

An investigation will reveal whether work to defend against adverse weather needs to be "stepped up", Michael Matheson, the Scottish Transport Secretary who also visited the site, said.

He added that adverse weather was increasingly having an impact on routes and the Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB) probe into the incident would reveal whether mitigation works needed to be increased.

Mr Matheson also paid tribute to the conductor who walked from the wreckage to get help. He said this had allowed the line to be closed immediately afterwards.

He said: "It demonstrates the courage and determination they had to try and deal with the incident as effectively as possible and I’ve already highlighted how I’ve been quite literally humbled the way in which our emergency response teams have dealt with this issue, but also how our network rail engineers and railway engineers have helped to manage this incident over the course of the last 24 hours."

Meanwhile, tributes were paid to Mr McCullough, 45, who was married with three children. Originally from Bromley in Kent, he worked as a gas fitter and his interest in trains began in 2011, when he serviced the boiler of an Aberdeen train driver and struck up a conversation about locomotives. He entered service with Scotrail in December 2013.

In a statement, his family said: “Words cannot describe the utterly devastating effect of Brett’s death on his family and friends. We have lost a wonderful husband, father, and son in the most awful of circumstances. Brett was the most decent and loving human being we have ever known and his passing leaves a huge void in all our lives.”

They added: “We would like to thank the emergency services for their heroic efforts in helping everyone affected by this tragedy and for all the messages of support and condolence we have received.”

 

[py_megapixel]

Being no expert in these things - is it likely all of the relevant vehicles will be written off? Or is there some potential for them to be restored?

 

[tiptoptaff]

Sorry if it's OT - an update to the GoFundMe, as was suggested upthread by LowLevel, the guy who set it up appears to be a Northern employee. He's posted an update on the page saying that Northern's MD has got in touch and has taken up the batton as the go-between for the fund/Northern and ScotRail

 

[reddragon]

Being no expert in these things - is it likely all of the relevant vehicles will be written off? Or is there some potential for them to be restored?

I'd say only 43030 has a hope

 

[Glasgow Rail]

Just seen the Telegraph reporting that an off duty conductor travelling on the train raised the alarm by walking to the signal box

That make sense if they went to the signal box

 

[Swanny200]

Being no expert in these things - is it likely all of the relevant vehicles will be written off? Or is there some potential for them to be restored?

The last powercar I would say at a push would potentially be restored if Scotrail wanted to, the rest of the set I doubt would be brought back to service

 

[tiptoptaff]

Being no expert in these things - is it likely all of the relevant vehicles will be written off? Or is there some potential for them to be restored?

Likely all passenger vehicles will be written off. Leading PC also. Hard to say from the photos what chassis damage may have been suffered by the rear PC

 

[USRailFan]

heres The Sun’s take on yesterdays tragedy, absolute vile scumbags they are with a title like this.View attachment 82172

People actually use The Sun for anything other than toilet paper?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The parapet was unlikely to have offered much resistance to the force of the moving train which is why I suggest the dominant initial mechanism may have been that the derailed power car was sufficiently off-centre to break through the parapet and topple from the bridge, dragging following vehicles with it. The parapet seems to have been completely stripped from the derailment side of the bridge and at least partially from the opposite side.

This is just my conjecture but the power car has a high centre of gravity with the engine and other equipment as well as being shorter so would overturn and which point the coupling could have failed to the first coach allowing that to carry on further being pushed from the rear.

The opposite side parapet wall damage and the gouge in the cutting face ahead of it i would surmise is the second? coach being pushed off to the right, due to momentum from behind, and then pivoting to end up perpendicular to track now.

All in all a horrendous situation for the driver.