Carmont (near Stonehaven) derailment - 12 August 2020

[Chrisgr31]

looking at that drone footage it would appear lucky that the rear part of the train didn’t follow the front off the track. It wouldn’t surprise me if it transpires that the front of the train almost went in the river and flipped end over end, taking the 2nd and 3rd cars with it, the 3rd remaining on track and being hit by the remainder of the train.

Its lucky from the recovery point of view that the temporary access is there, but. I doubt the reason for it will form a significant part of the investigation

 

[Robertj21a]

Good to hear that 4 of the passengers have been discharged from hospital.

 

[Swanny200]

I think we can probably safely say that even though the driver with all of his knowledge and experience if he had time would have done the right thing in shutting off power and trying to brake etc... If that slip was the point of impact, he would have likely been a passenger until impact, from one or two of the reports he lived not too far away from the accident spot too.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is the line through Stonehaven still closed for investigations?

NRE is reporting that the line (between Aberdeen and Dundee) will be closed until Saturday August 22.
Neither LNER or XC appear to be running on the route north of Edinburgh.
The Perth-Inverness route is also closed at the moment, because of flooding damage.

Find details of current incidents | National Rail

A portal into UK rail travel, including information on ticket purchase and promotions, train times and delays, and more.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

 

[43066]

I think we can probably safely say that even though the driver with all of his knowledge and experience if he had time would have done the right thing in shutting off power and trying to brake etc... If that slip was the point of impact, he would have likely been a passenger until impact, from one or two of the reports he lived not too far away from the accident spot too.

As a unit driver, if you’re approaching an obstacle, the best advice is to drop the lot (at that point you’ve done all you can) and step back into the passenger cabin.

That simply isn’t an option on an HST because the only place to walk back into is the engine room. That’s somewhere you really don’t want to be at the best of times.

As someone who signs the stock I dread to think what he must have gone through.

 

[bramling]

As a unit driver, if you’re approaching an obstacle, the best advice is to drop the lot (at that point you’ve done all you can) and step back into the passenger cabin.

That simply isn’t an option on an HST because the only place to walk back into is the engine room. That’s somewhere you really don’t want to be at the best of times.

ISTR the Southall driver retreated to the engine room, which may well have saved him from significant injury or worse, though the cab at Southall did stand up to at least some extent.

 

[DelW]

The parapet was unlikely to have offered much resistance to the force of the moving train which is why I suggest the dominant initial mechanism may have been that the derailed power car was sufficiently off-centre to break through the parapet and topple from the bridge, dragging following vehicles with it. The parapet seems to have been completely stripped from the derailment side of the bridge and at least partially from the opposite side.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with your comment about the parapet - having carried out structural assessments of old masonry structures using the old British code (BS5628), these structures can be structurally surprisingly strong. Much depends on how the courses are arranged, and what mortar was used, neither of which are usually simple to determine.

However I'd agree with your assessment that the impact of the derailed power car was probably sufficient to penetrate the parapet and allow the PC to fall from the side of the bridge, possibly taking the first coach with it. A horrendous event, showing just how large the forces involved are.

 

[55002]

heres The Sun’s take on yesterdays tragedy, absolute vile scumbags they are with a title like this.View attachment 82172

They are vile scumbags Full Stop.

 

[SteveT]

Did the bridge have a masonry wall or a basic temporary-looking metal guard rail? Whatever it had, it has gone.

A bit of both:

"Ex-LMSR Class 5 4-6-0 No. 44998 crosses Bridge No. 325 to the east of Carmont Signal Box on the 1-in-102 climb from Stonehaven with the 17.30 (SX) Aberdeen to Perth train on 31st August, 1965."

https://scottishrtt.livejournal.com/14003.html

 

[43066]

ISTR the Southall driver retreated to the engine room, which may well have saved him from significant injury or worse, though the cab at Southall did stand up to at least some extent.

Really?

Having been in quite a few I’d honestly be tempted to take my chances jumping out. But that wouldn’t lead to a good outcome either at 75mph, so perhaps retreating into the engine room is a better call. It’s cramped, dark and full of jagged metal.

Perhaps this is going to a level of detail that’s inappropriate, but it’s certainly something you think about.

 

[LowLevel]

Really?

Having been in quite a few I’d honestly be tempted to take my chances jumping out. But that wouldn’t lead to a good outcome either at 75mph, so perhaps retreating into the engine room is a better call. It’s cramped, dark and full of jagged metal.

Perhaps this is going to a level of detail that’s inappropriate, but it’s certainly something you think about.

Traditional wisdom, in the event of a standard front end impact you become aware of in enough time, when driving a standard locomotive has been that getting into the engine room so you're behind that heavy bulkhead and lying down flat is the best course of action. It's saved many lives I believe.

 

[hst43102]

ISTR the Southall driver retreated to the engine room, which may well have saved him from significant injury or worse, though the cab at Southall did stand up to at least some extent.

Having been in quite a few I’d honestly be tempted to take my chances jumping out. But that wouldn’t lead to a good outcome either at 75mph, so perhaps retreating into the engine room is a better call. It’s cramped, dark and full of jagged metal.

What's the inside of the engine room like? I can't seem to find any photos from a quick Google search.

 

[bramling]

Really?

Having been in quite a few I’d honestly be tempted to take my chances jumping out. But that wouldn’t lead to a good outcome either at 75mph, so perhaps retreating into the engine room is a better call. It’s cramped, dark and full of jagged metal.

Perhaps this is going to a level of detail that’s inappropriate, but it’s certainly something you think about.

It's mentioned in one or more of the reports. Certainly during the Southall driver's conversation with the signaller he said "And I went back into the engine room", so we can take that as fairly reliable.

Presumably the Southall driver was fortunate that he managed to wind up on the opposite side to that which bore the brunt of the impact.

 

[the sniper]

A bit of both:

View attachment 82185

"Ex-LMSR Class 5 4-6-0 No. 44998 crosses Bridge No. 325 to the east of Carmont Signal Box on the 1-in-102 climb from Stonehaven with the 17.30 (SX) Aberdeen to Perth train on 31st August, 1965." [Ken Plant]

https://scottishrtt.livejournal.com/14003.html

I wonder whether the gap in the wall will prove significant, with regards to the trajectory of the derailed train.

 

[Swanny200]

Really?

Having been in quite a few I’d honestly be tempted to take my chances jumping out. But that wouldn’t lead to a good outcome either at 75mph, so perhaps retreating into the engine room is a better call. It’s cramped, dark and full of jagged metal.

Perhaps this is going to a level of detail that’s inappropriate, but it’s certainly something you think about.

I have been a secondman in quite a few locos and going into the engine room would have never figured on my radar at all, I hated going into them at the best of times, we are still unsure of the speed he was going, we presume linespeed but it depends on whether control had asked him to go slower as a just in case especially considering trains had already been called off at this point by NR, even at half that speed, the time from point of impact (if it was at that slip) to where he came to rest would have been less than 30 seconds I would say, we don't know when the fire started (was it before it came to rest or after), it is all just speculation and all of those variables are not something any driver really wants to think about.

 

[paul_munich]

What's the inside of the engine room like? I can't seem to find any photos from a quick Google search.

Engine room Class 43

 

[hst43102]

Engine Room Of EC HST Powercar 43306

Thanks a lot!

 

[najaB]

I think this might be the video that @paul_munich meant to link:

 

[paul_munich]

Appears to be a broken link.

I've fixed it, thanks!

 

[the sniper]

Really?

Having been in quite a few I’d honestly be tempted to take my chances jumping out. But that wouldn’t lead to a good outcome either at 75mph, so perhaps retreating into the engine room is a better call. It’s cramped, dark and full of jagged metal.

Perhaps this is going to a level of detail that’s inappropriate, but it’s certainly something you think about.

I think it may be an old railway mentality? Collision were far more common back in the day, both slow and high speed. Quite often you see old pics where the cab hasn't stood up too well, but the body of the loco is fine. Maybe it was something that footplate crew thought more about back then, or at least talked about anecdotally, being more exposed to collisions occurring semi-regularly.

 

[Swanny200]

I think it may be an old railway mentality? Collision were far more common back in the day, both slow and high speed. Quite often you see old pics where the cab hasn't stood up too well, but the body of the loco is fine. Maybe it was something that footplate crew thought more about back then, or at least talked about anecdotally, being more exposed to collisions.

Hixon 1968 springs to mind, both ends of the cab staved in but the main engine compartment mostly intact

 

[hst43102]

Engine room doesn't look to be a good place to be if the locomotive is rolling down an embankment - high risk of concussion etc likely.

 

[marks87]

ISTR the Southall driver retreated to the engine room, which may well have saved him from significant injury or worse, though the cab at Southall did stand up to at least some extent.

Speaking of Southall, it’s remarkable to think that prior to yesterday there had been three serious accidents involving HSTs, all on the Great Western Mainline...and yesterday’s set was with GWR until relatively recently.

 

[SteveT]

Whatever criticism NR take about deforested embankments and their stability, the slip has occurred on a pretty densely wooded embankment.

Indeed. It's a rather simple-minded view that thick vegetation can only be a good thing. So many variables: steepness and height of slope, soil type, underlying geology; type of vegetation – grass, shrub, small or large trees – and so on. A brief online search turns up plenty of reading on the subject.

I haven't heard the subject mentioned yet on the MSM.

 

[Llanigraham]

With the top of the screen being towards the signalbox (roughly 1km away) and the bottom towards the scene of the accident what is the tower? is it the GSM-R tower

Looks like it.

 

[Ianno87]

It's mentioned in one or more of the reports. Certainly during the Southall driver's conversation with the signaller he said "And I went back into the engine room", so we can take that as fairly reliable.

Presumably the Southall driver was fortunate that he managed to wind up on the opposite side to that which bore the brunt of the impact.

Southall, the driver would have had plenty of visibility of the crossing freight train he was approaching - easily maybe 15-20 seconds or so?

Yesterday may only have been a few seconds on sighting the obstruction, and even less of the train remaining upright.

 

[DelW]

I think it may be an old railway mentality? Collision were far more common back in the day, both slow and high speed. Quite often you see old pics where the cab hasn't stood up too well, but the body of the loco is fine. Maybe it was something that footplate crew thought more about back then, or at least talked about anecdotally, being more exposed to collisions occurring semi-regularly.

I'm sure I've read that in the early days of dieselisation, a lot of the old steam crews felt very exposed, sat up front with just a sheet metal cab around them, by comparison with having many tons of boiler, smokebox, cylinders and motion between them and an impact. Though of course a steam loco cab could be a dangerous place in a collision too, with a big coal fire just in front, and tons of boiling water above it.

 

[Bertiethebobby]

Why would anyone need to come out and secure the points at Carmont? They are in the control area of the adjacent Carmont signalbox, which is staffed 24 hours a day. Surely they are part of the Carmont interlocking and worked from the box, and even if they aren't, wouldn't the signaller be available to secure them?

Daft as it may seem, signallers have had their PTS's withdrawn so therefore aren't allowed to go onto the track to secure the points or do anything else. the reversal wasn't an emergency so the procedure would be to wait for a MOM to arrive. I'm not saying that in this instance that was done, or indeed if in the more remote areas of the country the signallers have kept their PTS, but I was told this by a signaller that retired a few years ago.

 

[LowLevel]

Nearly everything in the engine room is extremely solidly attached to the loco. If the collision is bad enough to cause it to move you're probably a goner anyway. Far better in there.

 

[Bertiethebobby]

So we know that the Driver and Guard have passed, regarding the situation that they were under, they would have been getting ready to detrain at Stonehaven, the guard would not have been checking tickets etc... what would they be doing in that situation, would they have just been communicating to the 6 or so passengers the situation or would he have been employed by the driver to act as a second set of eyes in the cab with a worsening situation of potential landslips, or would that not be allowed under any circumstances?

i imagine that asking the guard to be a second pair of eyes is a very sensible thing to do and would say that is almost certainly what happened.