Cambrian Line observations

[williamn]

I've just returned from a week in Machynlleth where I used the train a fair bit, both to get there and also to travel around the area. My complaints with the 100% rate of trains with broken AC are documented elsewhere, but a few other things struck me. First was just how busy all the trains were - both on the Aber section and the Pwllheli branch too. My understanding is that the forthcoming 197s actually have fewer seats than the 158's which seems nuts. While trains were only full to standing on the Birmingham to Shrewsbury section it wasn't very far off being so the rest of the route.

I'm also surprised at how poor the frequency is given how busy the trains were - I can understand the Pwllheli section being only two hourly (though the southern end seems quite busy) but it feels like Aberystwyth could generate traffic for an hourly service quite easily. Is an hourly service possible given the constraints of the single line? I know it happens at certain times of day but quite far from being all day.

Lastly I was also struck at how many people used the train to travel from stations on the Pwllheli line to Aberystwyth, despite the often poor connections - I observed quite a few people changing a Machynlleth for a connection that was a good 50 mins away.

 

[The Planner]

I've just returned from a week in Machynlleth where I used the train a fair bit, both to get there and also to travel around the area. My complaints with the 100% rate of trains with broken AC are documented elsewhere, but a few other things struck me. First was just how busy all the trains were - both on the Aber section and the Pwllheli branch too. My understanding is that the forthcoming 197s actually have fewer seats than the 158's which seems nuts. While trains were only full to standing on the Birmingham to Shrewsbury section it wasn't very far off being so the rest of the route.

I'm also surprised at how poor the frequency is given how busy the trains were - I can understand the Pwllheli section being only two hourly (though the southern end seems quite busy) but it feels like Aberystwyth could generate traffic for an hourly service quite easily. Is an hourly service possible given the constraints of the single line? I know it happens at certain times of day but quite far from being all day.

Lastly I was also struck at how many people used the train to travel from stations on the Pwllheli line to Aberystwyth, despite the often poor connections - I observed quite a few people changing a Machynlleth for a connection that was a good 50 mins away.

Hourly has been promised for years, the infrastructure cannot do anymore.

 

[Llanigraham]

There is a good hourly service, Aberystwyth/Machynlleth to Shrewsbury for most of the day. The only hours not covered are 10.00, 14.00 and 16.00, and there are plans to rectify that when the new units are available.

 

[Belperpete]

The trains are significantly busier during the summer holiday weeks. Most of the rest of the year, the trains easily cope. Provided they don't run just 2 cars on the Mach-Shrewsbury section. As you say, the trains are usually fullest between Birmingham - Shrewsbury.

I think you will find most of the people travelling between the Pwllheli branch and Aber were tourists - the locals mostly use the bus services, which run straight through without you needing to change (as I did on Saturday).

 

[bramling]

I've just returned from a week in Machynlleth where I used the train a fair bit, both to get there and also to travel around the area. My complaints with the 100% rate of trains with broken AC are documented elsewhere, but a few other things struck me. First was just how busy all the trains were - both on the Aber section and the Pwllheli branch too. My understanding is that the forthcoming 197s actually have fewer seats than the 158's which seems nuts. While trains were only full to standing on the Birmingham to Shrewsbury section it wasn't very far off being so the rest of the route.

I'm also surprised at how poor the frequency is given how busy the trains were - I can understand the Pwllheli section being only two hourly (though the southern end seems quite busy) but it feels like Aberystwyth could generate traffic for an hourly service quite easily. Is an hourly service possible given the constraints of the single line? I know it happens at certain times of day but quite far from being all day.

Lastly I was also struck at how many people used the train to travel from stations on the Pwllheli line to Aberystwyth, despite the often poor connections - I observed quite a few people changing a Machynlleth for a connection that was a good 50 mins away.

Worth remembering that you’ve visited during peak summer. Out of season the trains on the coast section are nowhere near as busy, especially during the winter months. Aberystwyth is less seasonal and has flows such as students to keep it ticking over.

I’ve done Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury on a few occasions during the likes of May and September, and during weekday daytime had no difficulty having a table of four seats to myself.

 

[Lurcheroo]

As the a planner says, an Hourly service is capable on current infrastructure and it has been promised for a long time but never materialised.

TFW recently announced the full hourly service would be delayed until May2026 and would only run during summer months and not all year round as had previously been the plan.

As for the 197 vs 158 argument, it’s 116 seats on a 197 vs 134 on a 158. Whilst I often tell people if a 2 car is overcrowded then the difference in seats isn’t much of an issue, but the number of carriages are. Some of the services to and from Pwllheli might just fall into that category where the 18 seat difference would be important.
For me, during summer with the 197’s, the best thing for the Cambrian would be 3+3 to Mach and then 3 coach units going to Aber and Pwllheli separately. This would provide capacity only during the peak season, for very little additional cost. But alas, no 3 cars are ETCS fitted as it stands.

Year round seat occupancy is low on the Cambrian, even during peak season, some services are rather quiet. During winter, some will only have a very small number. I can think of plenty of times as a guard where I’ve worked a train Mach-Aber and it’s been less than 10 people the whole journey.

Hope you enjoyed the Cambrian though, it’s absolutely beautiful this time of year

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2024 ==

I think you will find most of the people travelling between the Pwllheli branch and Aber were tourists - the locals mostly use the bus services, which run straight through without you needing to change (as I did on Saturday).

Even during winter there can be a good few changing over at Dovey junction but this time of year, of course, is always more.

 

[nwales58]

On future 197 versus current 158 capacity in the 6 weeks of summer, my guess is that fewer seats won't matter much. The extra space for prams pushchairs etc and wider doorways on the 197s will help a little. 158 vestibules were not designed for frequent stops and day out tourist families on the coast.

Where seats matter is Birmingham-Telford in the peaks. It's not uncommon to have to stand for the first hour of your 4-5 hour journey home, unpleasant when you are old, unless you board at International. Aberystwyth Friday and Sunday student flows need the seats too.

 

[Lurcheroo]

On future 197 versus current 158 capacity in the 6 weeks of summer, my guess is that fewer seats won't matter much. The extra space for prams pushchairs etc and wider doorways on the 197s will help a little. 158 vestibules were not designed for frequent stops and day out tourist families on the coast.

Where seats matter is Birmingham-Telford in the peaks. It's not uncommon to have to stand for the first hour of your 4-5 hour journey home, unpleasant when you are old, unless you board at International.

Yes agreed. Luggage space (or lack of) is certainly an issue already on other parts of the network and it clogs up door ways and isles no end from what I’ve seen.

Prams should be folded down but that doesn’t happen on the 158’s so the 197’s will likely help there.

The bike space will be a point of contention no doubt as there are fold down seats that have to be folded up to store the bike properly.

I’ve written to TFW about using 3 cars but I hold no hope haha!!

Shrewbury - Birmingham (and back) as a conductor I mostly found that 4 coaches was sufficient (very rarely had 4 coaches and there were no seats available) and the plan is to operate the 07:30 and 15:30 departure from Shrewsbury as 6 cars (the 15:30 goes as a 6 car 158 on the odd occasion even now). They’re also fairly good at recognising events going on so hopefully once fleet constraints are reduced they will consider this and run 5 and 6 car formations on other services on those days.
I’d advocate for a 5 or 6 car on the 09:30 from Shrewsbury on Saturdays / bank holidays especially if there’s something on in Birmingham.

 

[nwales58]

Porth-Mach and Aber, and Tywyn-Aber is much faster by bus than train anyway, so only some intermediate places would use train to Aber and only the 2-3 per day that connect. Anyone hanging around at Mach is probably a visitor with spare time.

Train only gets you to Aber at 0920 or 1220 and return at 1230 or 1830. No good for getting to work or college for most people. In winter I guess much of the use is over 60s as our concessionary travel includes the coast trains in winter.

 

[williamn]

Where seats matter is Birmingham-Telford in the peaks. It's not uncommon to have to stand for the first hour of your 4-5 hour journey home,

Yes I was nervous about this on the way out and deliberately booked to board at Birmingham International. Reintroducing seat reservations would help enormously…

 

[Belperpete]

Yes I was nervous about this on the way out and deliberately booked to board at Birmingham International. Reintroducing seat reservations would help enormously…

I suspect that they gave up on seat reservations because of the confusion they caused. With the reversal at Shrewsbury, so what was facing becomes back and v.v., combined with the number of times they do set swaps at Shrewsbury, often at short notice, used to cause no end of confusion and complaints with reservations.

 

[williamn]

I suspect that they gave up on seat reservations because of the confusion they caused. With the reversal at Shrewsbury, so what was facing becomes back and v.v., combined with the number of times they do set swaps at Shrewsbury, often at short notice, used to cause no end of confusion and complaints with reservations.

Sigh, surely it’s not beyond human capability to make them work?!

What’s the reason for set swaps at Shrewsbury? With lots of luggage it’s a major inconvenience.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect that they gave up on seat reservations because of the confusion they caused. With the reversal at Shrewsbury, so what was facing becomes back and v.v., combined with the number of times they do set swaps at Shrewsbury, often at short notice, used to cause no end of confusion and complaints with reservations.

I was of the impression that TfW withdrew reservations because of the transition to 197s/Mk4s. They're worse than worthless if not delivered reliably and consistently. Thus they may return post-transition.

It was the plan to run 6 car formations on the splitters and send 4 to Pwllheli in summer, this would make a huge difference.

 

[williamn]

I was of the impression that TfW withdrew reservations because of the transition to 197s/Mk4s. They're worse than worthless if not delivered reliably and consistently. Thus they may return post-transition.

It was the plan to run 6 car formations on the splitters and send 4 to Pwllheli in summer, this would make a huge difference.

The Cambrian Line isn't going over to 197's till 2026 is it? So until then it's a guaranteed 158, so no reason they couldn't do reservations on that basis.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Cambrian Line isn't going over to 197's till 2026 is it? So until then it's a guaranteed 158, so no reason they couldn't do reservations on that basis.

It's quite common to end up with a unit other than a 158 on it (most commonly a 150 or a brace of 153s), they do a swap at Shrewsbury when that happens (and I say when, not if) so the ETCS fitted 158s from the Cambrian go back that way and the other units go back to Birmingham for a Holyhead run. This is because of TfW's massive unit shortage which won't be resolved until the 197s are all in service.

To me, abandoning reservations for that transitional period makes a lot of sense. Reservations are worse than useless if they aren't consistently delivered.

 

[Belperpete]

I was of the impression that TfW withdrew reservations because of the transition to 197s/Mk4s. They're worse than worthless if not delivered reliably and consistently. Thus they may return post-transition.

It was the plan to run 6 car formations on the splitters and send 4 to Pwllheli in summer, this would make a huge difference.

They withdrew seat reservations on the Cambrian a good number of years ago, certainly pre COVID.

There have been some 4 car services up the Coast to Pwllheli this summer. And one of the things asked in the recent consultation was which should be 4 car next year. Ironically, one of the options was one of the services they are proposing to withdraw!

 

[richard_S]

I have been watching the timings of the trains for the last few months. I have found that 1 late train can disrupt the timetable sometimes for the rest of the day. The line needs longer passing loops to give the line a chance of recovering. Possible solution below

Keeping the existing junction arrangement to Sutton bridge then a section of double track for at least a mile (further would be better). This would enable a train to clear the line from Shrewsbury south. It would also shorten the distance to Welshpool giving the train a better chance of recovering time after a train running late.

Extending the passing loop at Talerddig to the east of a new station for Carno about 300M east of the old station.

Doubling of the track between Machynlleth and Dovey junction with a new platform 0 and double the track to just before the Dovey junction viaduct.

Extending the passing loop at Tywyn to the other side of Aberdovey station. New passing loop from about 900M south of Fairbourne station (with new platform) to the other side of Morfa Mawddach with new platform there.

Extend the passing loop at Harlech to just short of Tygwyn. Extending the passing loop at Porthmadog 3 miles towards Cricieth. By doing this it would give the line a better chance of recovering from a delayed train.

 

[Harpo]

The Cambrian appears to need better timetables rather than more infrastructure. The timings at Talerddig and Fron, for example, often guarantee that delay from the coast immediately re-exports back down towards the coast.

All resilience appears to be centred around the needs of the West mids end of the service judging by those very lengthy dwells at Shrewsbury.

 

[nwales58]

Current timetable seems to recover from disruption at about 10 minutes per hour west of Shrewsbury. Short turnround at Aberyswyth limits the recovery, there is a lot of padding at the loops north of Machynlleth. Eastbound padding at Shrewsbury too.

It's multiple disruptions during the day that cause the pain. Wolverhampton-Birmingham International bottleneck is one, another is importing delays from the interworked Holyheads.

Mach-Dovey Junction: now allows short headways with a couple of intermediate sections (one advantage of ETCS, it's cheap to do that). You see it in action whenever coastbounds are late.

Athough dynamic loops at Harlech and Tywyn would allow shorter journey time and increased reliability it's never going to be value for money. Porthmadog loop is only used off-pattern so even worse value.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I suspect that they gave up on seat reservations because of the confusion they caused. With the reversal at Shrewsbury, so what was facing becomes back and v.v., combined with the number of times they do set swaps at Shrewsbury, often at short notice, used to cause no end of confusion and complaints with reservations.

Sigh, surely it’s not beyond human capability to make them work?!

What’s the reason for set swaps at Shrewsbury? With lots of luggage it’s a major inconvenience.

I don’t believe it had anything to do with sets swaps.

They happen usually because the stock on a Birmingham - Aber service can’t go on the Cambrian, such as if there is a 150 or 153 on it or if the 158 has had ERTMS isolated.

It was the plan to run 6 car formations on the splitters and send 4 to Pwllheli in summer, this would make a huge difference.

That’s interesting, I’ve not seen plans for 6 cars on the Cambrian but as is said above, as of last year, during summer the 10:55 is supposed to run as a 4 car and they’re now looking at running a 2nd service per day and people were asked which services they felt it would be best on.

Ironically, one of the options was one of the services they are proposing to withdraw!

I think you may misunderstand. The 8:52 was only being proposed to be withdrawn in the winter time and the 4 cars only run during the summer.
The 8:52 is now not being withdrawn at all.

The Cambrian Line isn't going over to 197's till 2026 is it? So until then it's a guaranteed 158, so no reason they couldn't do reservations on that basis.

They’re due next year by the current plans.
There is talk that Shrewbury - Birmingham will go to 197’s before the Cambrian which could mean a set swap or booked connection at Shrewsbury.

The return of seat reservations is under consideration at the moment. To be honest, unless it becomes like airlines, I don’t see much point. If there is lots of capacity then you can just turn up and grab a seat, if there if too little, people sit in reserved seats and it’s causes problems.

@richard_S that’s a lot of money.
One considerable delay will knock the entire line for the day you’re not wrong. Extending passing loops isn’t really a huge use in my opinion.
Taking Welshpool which has a long loop. It only helps in one direction and if the delay is more than a few minutes then you end up stopped at the end of the loop, no chance for passengers to Get some air when it’s warm and you loose about 4 minutes extra on top
If the delay than if you had just been going from Welshpool non stop.

If we consider Welshpool to Newtown it can be done in about 13 minutes but you’re given 15. Dovey to Mach Is just 6 minutes and whilst it’s more common, it’s still not that often you get sent through first which begs the question, how close would new loops need to be to be useful.
There is reliable talk that block markers are to be moved from between Borth and Bowstreet to either side of Borth station, meaning that terminating and starting services from there would be much more viable so it’s a shame a loop couldn’t be added, but unless the timetable was to be redesigned to make use of it, it’s infrastructure with no real intended purpose.

Once the 197’s are brought in, I would think the sections times will be reduced due to their much superior braking and acceleration (especially their ability to reach the line speed when climbing up various gradients which the 158’s cannot)
So that should give more play in what is quite a tight timetable to allow the hourly service and will therefore reduce knock on delays and allow more ‘make up’ between passing points.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Short turnround at Aberyswyth limits the recovery, there is a lot of padding at the loops north of Machynlleth. Eastbound padding at Shrewsbury too.

I hope 197’s will allow a few extra minutes which will make a big difference. The 158’s are also slow to boot up the ETCS software so the turnaround time gets eaten up quickly. 197’s are supposedly very quick to boot and setup in comparison.
The coast is ridiculously slack North of Tywyn, when your on time your trundling along well below line speed to make sure you don’t blaze through a request stop 5 minutes early.

Mach-Dovey Junction: now allows short headways with a couple of intermediate sections (one advantage of ETCS, it's cheap to do that). You see it in action whenever coastbounds are late.

If the down train is late and your taking the coast portion (the rear) then very often you will get stopped at the intermediate block half way as the Aber train hasn’t cleared the section into Dovey junction but is certainly very useful in making it 9 minutes for 2 trains instead of 12 minutes for 2.

Porthmadog loop is only used off-pattern so even worse value.

Barmouth and Porthmadog both have one booked crossing per day.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I suspect that they gave up on seat reservations because of the confusion they caused. With the reversal at Shrewsbury, so what was facing becomes back and v.v., combined with the number of times they do set swaps at Shrewsbury, often at short notice, used to cause no end of confusion and complaints with reservations.

Sigh, surely it’s not beyond human capability to make them work?!

What’s the reason for set swaps at Shrewsbury? With lots of luggage it’s a major inconvenience.

I don’t believe it had anything to do with sets swaps.

They happen usually because the stock on a Birmingham - Aber service can’t go on the Cambrian, such as if there is a 150 or 153 on it or if the 158 has had ERTMS isolated.

It was the plan to run 6 car formations on the splitters and send 4 to Pwllheli in summer, this would make a huge difference.

That’s interesting, I’ve not seen plans for 6 cars on the Cambrian but as is said above, as of last year, during summer the 10:55 is supposed to run as a 4 car and they’re now looking at running a 2nd service per day and people were asked which services they felt it would be best on.

Ironically, one of the options was one of the services they are proposing to withdraw!

I think you may misunderstand. The 8:52 was only being proposed to be withdrawn in the winter time and the 4 cars only run during the summer.
The 8:52 is now not being withdrawn at all.

The Cambrian Line isn't going over to 197's till 2026 is it? So until then it's a guaranteed 158, so no reason they couldn't do reservations on that basis.

They’re due next year by the current plans.
There is talk that Shrewbury - Birmingham will go to 197’s before the Cambrian which could mean a set swap or booked connection at Shrewsbury.

The return of seat reservations is under consideration at the moment. To be honest, unless it becomes like airlines, I don’t see much point. If there is lots of capacity then you can just turn up and grab a seat, if there if too little, people sit in reserved seats and it’s causes problems.

@richard_S that’s a lot of money.
One considerable delay will knock the entire line for the day you’re not wrong. Extending passing loops isn’t really a huge use in my opinion.
Taking Welshpool which has a long loop. It only helps in one direction and if the delay is more than a few minutes then you end up stopped at the end of the loop, no chance for passengers to Get some air when it’s warm and you loose about 4 minutes extra on top
If the delay than if you had just been going from Welshpool non stop.

If we consider Welshpool to Newtown it can be done in about 13 minutes but you’re given 15.

The Cambrian appears to need better timetables rather than more infrastructure. The timings at Talerddig and Fron, for example, often guarantee that delay from the coast immediately re-exports back down towards the coast.

All resilience appears to be centred around the needs of the West mids end of the service judging by those very lengthy dwells at Shrewsbury.

Those timings are pretty set really so not much can be down without reducing the section times.

That buffer at Shrewsbury is rather important for both directions.

 

[williamn]

To be honest, unless it becomes like airlines, I don’t see much point. If there is lots of capacity then you can just turn up and grab a seat, if there if too little, people sit in reserved seats and it’s causes problems

They work effectively on many other long distance routes. If you're travelling with family, or you're elderly, or you use trains infrequently they are a great reassurance, and 99% of people if they're sat in your seat will move when asked.

 

[Lurcheroo]

They work effectively on many other long distance routes. If you're travelling with family, or you're elderly, or you use trains infrequently they are a great reassurance, and 99% of people if they're sat in your seat will move when asked.

That’s fair I suppose! Nice to be able to book a group of seats together, I was really only thinking about a single traveler.

 

[Belperpete]

Will the 197s display useful information for trains that split? Currently the 158s display Aberystwyth in both portions of the train, which causes a lot of confusion.

 

[Llanigraham]

They work effectively on many other long distance routes. If you're travelling with family, or you're elderly, or you use trains infrequently they are a great reassurance, and 99% of people if they're sat in your seat will move when asked.

The problem has always been the reversal at Shrewsbury, where people complain that they have booked to be in one direction and then find themselves being the opposite.

 

[williamn]

That’s fair I suppose! Nice to be able to book a group of seats together, I was really only thinking about a single traveler.

Yeah life is much easier when on your own for travelling! For my friends with kids reservations long distance are essential for them.

 

[LittleRedTrain]

Please, no re-instatement of reservations on the Cambrian, and definitely not on 158s!

The Cambrian isn't an InterCity railway with most people travelling end to end.
It's a local/regional service with frequent stops and lots of passenger 'churn'. Allowing reservations just leads to increased dwell times and confusion as passengers try to find their seats and come into conflict trying to get past each other in the aisle.

Having regularly used the Cambrian before and after reservations were removed, it's a lot easier and simpler now when you can just sit in any free seat you see.
Also, now that so many tickets are booked on apps which give you a reservation by default, you'll end up with lots of seats being reserved for really short hops as tourists travel between beaches/towns along the coast.

The chances are, if you're travelling long distance and can't find a seat on boarding, sooner or later a seat will free up due to high turnover of passengers.

Finally, on 158s, those seat-back pieces of paper are also completely inaccessible for anyone with a visual impairment, unlike the much better displays and LED lights on things like 800s. Personally I think they should have been banned under equality legislation long ago!

 

[williamn]

The Cambrian isn't an InterCity railway with most people travelling end to end.
It's a local/regional service with frequent stops and lots of passenger 'churn

There are over 20 miles between Mach and Caersws, that’s hardly frequent. On the portion to Aberystwyth the vast majority are going to / from Birmingham.

If you want to attract people to the railways it has to be more customer friendly than ‘chances are you’ll find a seat sooner or later’.

 

[Llanigraham]

There are over 20 miles between Mach and Caersws, that’s hardly frequent. On the portion to Aberystwyth the vast majority are going to / from Birmingham.

If you want to attract people to the railways it has to be more customer friendly than ‘chances are you’ll find a seat sooner or later’.

And it is only 9 miles and 7 minutes from Caersws to Newtown!

I've been using the Cambrian for over 20 years and the only times I haven't been able to find a seat on the UP trains have been typically on a Saturday when the Motorbike Show and the Model Railway Show were on at the NEC. At other times I have never had to stand. On the DOWN the problem is the number of passengers who join at New St to go to Wolverhampton, Telford or Shrewsbury because the TfW service is quicker than the West Mids service. I have always been of the opinion that at rush hour times the TfW service should drop the Telford stop. It is why if I can I join the train at those times at International.

And as I said the problem of having reservations is the reversal at Shrewsbury. I have heard many people complain they have to change seats because they only like travelling forwards or backwards, and that would be made worse by this proposal.