Caledonian Sleeper

[SuspectUsual]

The bottom line is that CS don’t have a revised timetable, they don’t have any known delays, they just have a guesstimate off the back of a weather forecast.

The way to manage this is an email to all booked passengers, posts on social media and a splash on their website saying “this train may be significantly delayed - sorry we can’t be more specific - here is a link to claim delay repay if it hits the threshold”

Does any other TOC manage bad weather forecasts in this way?

(And having thought about it, I suspect the reason the intermediate stops aren’t retimed is because that would require interaction with Scotrail as the plan for crossing points would need to be remade)

 

[JamieL]

The bottom line is that CS don’t have a revised timetable, they don’t have any known delays, they just have a guesstimate off the back of a weather forecast.

The way to manage this is an email to all booked passengers, posts on social media and a splash on their website saying “this train may be significantly delayed - sorry we can’t be more specific - here is a link to claim delay repay if it hits the threshold”

Does any other TOC manage bad weather forecasts in this way?

(And having thought about it, I suspect the reason the intermediate stops aren’t retimed is because that would require interaction with Scotrail as the plan for crossing points would need to be remade)

The CS is a very different TOC in that it provides a combined accommodation, early arrival and premium service - a quite different purpose than your average train - and the FW portion also serves a very rural and exposed route. Standfast the commuters on the service, few of which will go all the way to Fort William, most travellers will be going to Fort William to do something specific as it really isn't the place to go for a wander. People are either going to walk up the hill/hinterland, go across the Linnhe, bus to Glencoe, onto Mallaig or go on an excursion along the Great Glen; all of which will require onward movements. So it means it is critical they know what time they are arriving otherwise they risk being stuck at the ends of the earth with not much to do other than McDonalds or Morrisons! I would also add that the premium customers who buy the more expensive tickets on the CS are probably less worried about Delay Repay than many rail travellers.

For awareness, CS always send out an email advising on Delay Repay if the journey is eligible.

 

[800002]

I believe, just to add another dimension here, that Caledonian Sleeper (as part of Scottish Rail Hildings) are prescribed targets related to PPM (Public Performamce Measure).
This is currently mandated at arrival at final destination (only) within 10 minutes of the planned arrival time.

Unlike their southern counterparts in England and Wales, they are not subjected to targets relating to individual station calls. So long as they call at all published stops (set down only as required by on board demand) they are judged to have arrived on time, within 9 minutes 59 seconds of the publically advertised time.

Lately, which is subject of this debate, CS have been fudging the destination arrival time by adding adjustment time between penultimate and ultimate timing points.
I therefore suggest that this is done solely to preserve their targeted PPM and no other reason.
By virtue of retiming before 2200 the day before (arrival) for the Fort William a by product of preserving PPM is potentially a reduced volume of delay repay outgoings for those booked with tickets to Fort William.

I don't think it can be said that this is being done to alleviate Delay Repay.
I believe, also, it has been established those with booked itineraries can still attempt to claim and be successful after several rounds of appealing. (Of course, I'm happy to be corrected on this point).

 

[VT 390]

For awareness, CS always send out an email advising on Delay Repay if the journey is eligible.

Whilst it is good they do notify passengers in this way, for those who may be unaware of delay repay, this is done based on eligibility against their amended timetable.
This also does not take into account rail connections which may have been missed due to the sleeper being late or when their amended timetable has resulted in onward connections being missed (this is more of an issue for Inverness than Fort William). Even if a combination of tickets is held if the passengers whole journey involves a connection after the sleeper which is missed because of the sleeper you are still eligibly for delay repay for the entire journey.
Admittedly it would be difficult for Caledonian Sleeper to send out delay repay emails if you have booked tickets through separate locations, but just because they do not send an email does not eliminate the eligibility for delay repay.

 

[Bald Rick]

I believe, just to add another dimension here, that Caledonian Sleeper (as part of Scottish Rail Hildings) are prescribed targets related to PPM (Public Performamce Measure).

It is called the Scottish Train Perfromance Measure, STPM.

However, STPM has an exclusion clause (unlike the relevant metrics in England and Wales) where trains delayed due to speed restricitons imposed because of forecast severe weather - like today - are not counted as STPM failures. And therefore…

I therefore suggest that this is done solely to preserve their targeted PPM and no other reason.

… is not corrrect, as their STPM is already protected.

 

[Highlander1]

S

Surely if the primary intention is to inform passengers of the delay then the timings should be amened for all stations not just the final stop.
Its always a good idea to notify passengers of a delay as early as possible to give options, however for a service such as the sleeper the timetable does not need to be amended in this way to achieve that.
If they retimed every stop I would be more supportive the late notice timetable change but the fact that Caledonian Sleeper usually only retime the final station (where most passengers will be travelling to) indicates the primary reason for retiming is not to inform passengers but to avoid paying delay repay, otherwise ScotRail should also retime their services as well.
It also appears quite unfair that someone travelling to Fort William gets no delay repay where as someone alighting at Spean Bridge (where the delay will be near enough the same at Fort William) could potentially get their entire fare back.

Scotrail regularly retime arrival times when there are temporary or blanket speed restrictions. They also only do this for the terminating station.

 

[800002]

s not corrrect, as their STPM is already protected

I stand corrected.

 

[VT 390]

Scotrail regularly retime arrival times when there are temporary or blanket speed restrictions. They also only do this for the terminating station.

From my observations/experiences the number of days ScotRail do this on is less than the Sleeper and are generally more accurate than the Sleepers retimings.
If the sleeper retimes on the Fort William route by a whole hour (because of weather) then ScotRail should be doing so on the same days. I would understand more minor retimes of up to around 15-30 minutes because of differences in rolling stock.

 

[swidnod]

After all the shenanigans/comments about retiming, 1Y11 arrived at Fort William at 1014...

 

[Scotrail344Lad]

That's not surprising...

 

[prasa]

As is often said by CS crew 'there's every chance we'll still arrive at our original time/on-time' - I was pleased to see on 1Y11 today that crew were willing to delay room service/breakfast beyond the regular 0845 cut off - while CS crew are fantastic in general - they do often seem reluctant to delay breakfast even when the train is genuinely running late - despite the option on the order cards - I observed today's EUS/FTW crew happily delivering at 0915.

 

[Falcon1200]

At best, it’s a lazy half-arsed job where they can only be bothered to change the destination time

Retiming the Sleeper at intermediate stops would wreck the WHL timetable, unless the entire service for the day was recast - Which neither NR nor TOC Controls have the time or resources to do (despite what some senior managers believed), on a normal day never mind just now with the Glasgow Central situation.

 

[The Planner]

Sorry for being off topic, but is this information publicly accessible?
I'm specifically trying to find out about planned diversions for Avanti trains over the Settle and Carlisle whilst the West Coast Mainline is closed.

Don't automatically assume a block north of Preston means S&C diverts.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Don't automatically assume a block north of Preston means S&C diverts.

Fair point but seeing they're happening at least twice this year.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Retiming the Sleeper at intermediate stops would wreck the WHL timetable, unless the entire service for the day was recast - Which neither NR nor TOC Controls have the time or resources to do (despite what some senior managers believed), on a normal day never mind just now with the Glasgow Central situation.

Good point, and if they retimed the intermediate calls and like today the full delay catered for did not materialise they would potentially be stuck waiting time at intermediate stations for the revised schedule in case there were joining passengers.
This morning there was a 13 min delay at Arrochar to the early up from Oban but it achieved right time at Queen St (quite a bit of pathing allowance in that schedule), and 11 minute delay to the up Mallaig at Rannoch which was fully recoverd by Garelochhead.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Don't automatically assume a block north of Preston means S&C diverts.

The S&C diverts were, i thinkl, a spacial case because rail replacement bu8ses were not practical because the M6 was closed.

This was not a lack of co-ordination - the WCML and M6 were both closed because a bridge carrying the one over the other was being replaced.

 

[Bald Rick]

The S&C diverts were, i thinkl, a spacial case because rail replacement bu8ses were not practical because the M6 was closed.

This was not a lack of co-ordination - the WCML and M6 were both closed because a bridge carrying the one over the other was being replaced.

There’s S&C specials happening next month!

 

[MrEd]

As is often said by CS crew 'there's every chance we'll still arrive at our original time/on-time' - I was pleased to see on 1Y11 today that crew were willing to delay room service/breakfast beyond the regular 0845 cut off - while CS crew are fantastic in general - they do often seem reluctant to delay breakfast even when the train is genuinely running late - despite the option on the order cards - I observed today's EUS/FTW crew happily delivering at 0915.

From my own experience using the sleeper in recent years, crews will not delay breakfast service in case of a weather-related timetable alteration in case the train actually arrives at or near the normal time.

I think breakfasts in the club car have to be served at the booked time slots because it would become unworkable otherwise, as some passengers (including those travelling to intermediate stations) would want to delay it while others would want it at the originally requested time, potentially making a mess of the time slots and resulting in there being insufficient space/delays to breakfast service as some passengers arrived while others were still lingering. I can see why passengers requesting breakfast in the club car are asked to keep to their booked time slot even if the train is delayed.

With room service breakfast the crews can be more flexible, particularly as this is nowadays in disposable containers for both first and standard class - I note that the order form now includes a tick box giving the option to delay room service if the train is over an hour late - it is made clear that this only applies to room service.

 

[Deepgreen]

Yes, we arrived at 1014 (behind two class 73s, which I haven't seen before - previously it has always been a 66+73). The general confusion of information was compounded by this platform indicator at Tulloch!

 

[enginedin]

I note that the order form now includes a tick box giving the option to delay room service if the train is over an hour late - it is made clear that this only applies to room service.

I was on a very late southbound Highlander a couple of years ago (when I woke up expecting to see Preston or Crewe, we were still at Edinburgh...). I'd ticked about the last possible timeslot for breakfast, and when I wandered down to the club car, looking very bleary eyed because I then hadn't slept much, I was told I could go back to bed for an hour and come back for my breakfast.

 

[JonathanH]

Yes, we arrived at 1014 (behind two class 73s, which I haven't seen before - previously it has always been a 66+73).

Interestingly, Tuesday evening saw 66741 off the North Blyth to Fort William Alcan working work with the 73 in place of 66739. Departure from Fort William of the southbound sleeper was delayed waiting for 66741 to arrive. The Fort William sleeper has been two 73s since Wednesday morning. Then 66741 went back to Fort William light engine on Thursday evening, and 66741+66739 worked through to North Blyth this morning.

66304, which appears to have broken on the Inverness sleeper two weeks ago, seems to still be in Inverness, so 66s not having a great time on the sleeper at the moment.

 

[Bald Rick]

The general confusion of information was compounded by this platform indicator at Tulloch!

That leads to a philosophical question - “if a station information system is giving out incorrect information, and nobody sees it, is it confusing?”

 

[The Planner]

The S&C diverts were, i thinkl, a spacial case because rail replacement bu8ses were not practical because the M6 was closed.

This was not a lack of co-ordination - the WCML and M6 were both closed because a bridge carrying the one over the other was being replaced.

Yes, I know the people who planned it. Buses are quite practical for any blocks going forward though as they are unlikely to clash with a motorway closure. It depends on what Avanti want to do.

 

[43096]

Yes, I know the people who planned it. Buses are quite practical for any blocks going forward though as they are unlikely to clash with a motorway closure. It depends on what Avanti want to do.

But train passengers generally want a train. If they wanted a bus they’d go Flix or Megabus or whatever.

 

[The Planner]

But train passengers generally want a train. If they wanted a bus they’d go Flix or Megabus or whatever.

Thats as maybe, but Avanti choose not to divert, that is their choice.

 

[43096]

Thats as maybe, but Avanti choose not to divert, that is their choice.

In the finest tradition of the railway's attitude towards its customers - the "self loading cargo" that they are seen as.

 

[enginedin]

A colleague has been sent an email from TrainPal that tonight's Southbound lowlander has been cancelled, but the Sleeper website doesn't (yet) have any issues listed - except the continuing note about Glasgow (I'm trying to help by email). Have Trainpal conflated the cancellation of the Glasgow portion with the cancellation of the whole service? My colleague isn't confident enough with UK train travel to work out what's gone on and is accepting the 100% refund trainpal is offering and trying to make alternative arrangements to get south...

 

[Scotrail344Lad]

RTT doesn't show anything either

 

[Deepgreen]

Interestingly, Tuesday evening saw 66741 off the North Blyth to Fort William Alcan working work with the 73 in place of 66739. Departure from Fort William of the southbound sleeper was delayed waiting for 66741 to arrive. The Fort William sleeper has been two 73s since Wednesday morning. Then 66741 went back to Fort William light engine on Thursday evening, and 66741+66739 worked through to North Blyth this morning. 66304, which appears to have broken on the Inverness sleeper two weeks ago, seems to still be in Inverness, so 66s not having a great time on the sleeper at the moment.

Yes, we saw the Blyth working 'top and tailed' - a first for me! The sleeper was back to 66+73 from Sunday evening, when I watched it leaving Rannoch, from the hotel, in heavy snow! That run had another VVR schedule shown on RTT - nearly an hour earlier than usual.

That leads to a philosophical question - “if a station information system is giving out incorrect information, and nobody sees it, is it confusing?”

Indeed - but it cannot be assumed that Tulloch would not have any passengers to see it (in which case why provide anything?), and I have seen the same issue manifest itself at other WHL stations when many passengers were present.

 

[PG]

A colleague has been sent an email from TrainPal that tonight's Southbound lowlander has been cancelled, but the Sleeper website doesn't (yet) have any issues listed - except the continuing note about Glasgow (I'm trying to help by email). Have Trainpal conflated the cancellation of the Glasgow portion with the cancellation of the whole service? My colleague isn't confident enough with UK train travel to work out what's gone on and is accepting the 100% refund trainpal is offering and trying to make alternative arrangements to get south...

The sleeper website is letting me book on tonights lowlander from Edinburgh so I'd take that as confirmation that it is running.