Caledonian Sleeper

[gingerheid]

Wouldn't there be some economies of scale gained in adding capacity to cater to demand? Either with a whole new service, or, if technically feasible, added coaches

The question is to what extent.

Things that spring to mind:

- the website costs would remain basically the same no matter how many trains they ran
- if Glasgow and Edinburgh were longer separate trains then there wouldn't be the expense of messing around at Carstairs.

 

[Indigo Soup]

Wouldn't there be some economies of scale gained in adding capacity to cater to demand? Either with a whole new service, or, if technically feasible, added coaches

Increasing the service by just one carriage would require running a third train in each direction, increasing many of the direct operating costs by 50% straight off the bat - more locomotives, drivers, and guards, plus other train crew.

 

[Bald Rick]

the fixed overhead cost of the sleeper operstion os relatively small, and the marginal cost high.

It loses a lot of money: marginal costs are more than marginal revenue.

Any expansion will increase the marginal costs by more than the revenue; therefore expanding the operstion will simlly increase the losses / subsidy.

 

[ruaival]

I use the sleeper maybe four times a year when I've a days work to do in London. Sleeper down, days work, sleeper back. I have done all options and the Sleeper is easily the most convenient, comfortable and gives me most time in London.
Flying is not particularly convenient and requires getting up at stupid o'clock and / or getting home at stupid o'clock.
Day train and hotel down is OK, but less convenient and for the return I would get home after midnight and not have any time to socialise with any colleagues or friends.

Exactly my preference back in first Scotrail days, better "bushy tailed" appearance in London morning meetings than colleagues flying from the Central Belt. As also said by the first First Minister, the late Donald Dewar.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Exactly my preference back in first Scotrail days, better "bushy tailed" appearance in London morning meetings than colleagues flying from the Central Belt. As also said by the first First Minister, the late Donald Dewar.

Met him on the sleeper once.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Nov 2024 ==

Increasing the service by just one carriage would require running a third train in each direction, increasing many of the direct operating costs by 50% straight off the bat - more locomotives, drivers, and guards, plus other train crew.

If Edinburgh and Glasgow ran as separate trains to/from Euston one extra loco would be needed, not two, as one locomotive is needed for the Edinburgh portions anyway.
If the extra carriage was a DVT you could dispense with the extra locos currently needed to operate ECS workings in and out of the terminal stations at Glasgow and Euston

 

[PG]

If Edinburgh and Glasgow ran as separate trains to/from Euston one extra loco would be needed, not two, as one locomotive is needed for the Edinburgh portions anyway.
If the extra carriage was a DVT you could dispense with the extra locos currently needed to operate ECS workings in and out of the terminal stations at Glasgow and Euston

Makes you wonder why the opportunity wasn't taken to include some DVTs when the Mk5s were specified?

I see CS have a sale on.

Caledonian Sleeper are advertising a Winter Sale, with 25% off.

 

[35B]

Wouldn't there be some economies of scale gained in adding capacity to cater to demand? Either with a whole new service, or, if technically feasible, added coaches

There might, but huge marginal costs to get there.

 

[BRX]

Where's the demand thought to be highest (relative to existing capacity) - lowlander or highlander?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Where's the demand thought to be highest (relative to existing capacity) - lowlander or highlander?

Lowlander, Edinburgh portion.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Makes you wonder why the opportunity wasn't taken to include some DVTs when the Mk5s were specified?

If only there were some redundant Mark 5 DVTs in warm storage somewhere.............

 

[Mogz]

I imagine there would still be great demand for a Cornwall-Scotland sleeper too. I understand that there was one but privatisation killed it off as it would have fallen under the Cross Country franchise.

Such a service resurrected have the added advantage of leaving at a sociable hour for a reasonable morning arrival.

In terms of routing, it need not cannibalise existing sleeper demand either and could serve many cities that currently don’t have sleeper services at all.

One potential route could be:

Penzance-Plymouth-Exeter-Taunton-Bristol- Swindon-Reading [reverse] - Oxford-Coventry-Birmingham-Wolverhampton-Stafford-Stoke-Manchester [Split] then:

Portion 1 - Preston-Carlisle-Glasgow;

Portion 2 - Leeds-York-Newcastle-Edinburgh.

And I completely agree with the idea of pricing doubles/with shower at higher rates to subsidise classic/couchette/seated options.

 

[A S Leib]

Maybe going off-topic slightly, but

I imagine there would still be great demand for a Cornwall-Scotland sleeper too. I understand that there was one but privatisation killed it off as it would have fallen under the Cross Country franchise.

Such a service resurrected have the added advantage of leaving at a sociable hour for a reasonable morning arrival.

In terms of routing, it need not cannibalise existing sleeper demand either and could serve many cities that currently don’t have sleeper services at all.

Some cities just don't have enough demand for sleepers, although that doesn't necessarily mean it shouldn't be tried again.

One potential route could be:

Penzance-Plymouth-Exeter-Taunton-Bristol- Swindon-Reading [reverse] - Oxford-Coventry-Birmingham-Wolverhampton-Stafford-Stoke-Manchester [Split] then:

Portion 1 - Preston-Carlisle-Glasgow;

Portion 2 - Leeds-York-Newcastle-Edinburgh.

If you're aiming to get to Bristol at ~08:00 for business travel, it would be noon by the time you're at Penzance. I thought the Night Riviera had the Bristol stop cut for more flexibility in case of overnight engineering work, so maybe not having any public stops between Stafford and Taunton would be better (those two as then there's options between Trent Valley, Bescot and Birmingham, and between Weston-super-Mare and Westbury).

 

[Indigo Soup]

In terms of routing, it need not cannibalise existing sleeper demand either and could serve many cities that currently don’t have sleeper services at all.

Unfortunately most of them are in the middle of the country so would be 'served' at unusable hours. The most plausible timings are either Bristol at ~0800 with an early Birmingham call, or Plymouth at ~0800 with an early Bristol call. Northbound you probably can't make any usefully-timed morning stops.

Timings might be feasible for an Aberdeen-Bristol portion, but I doubt demand would be huge. I'd use it, depending on route... but running me a private train definitely doesn't make sense!

AFAIK the old cross-country sleeper, in its near-final incarnation, assembled coaches from Edinburgh and Glasgow at Carlisle, ran down to Birmingham, where it was divided into Plymouth and Bournemouth portions. All rather complex, with effectively four portions to the train!

There's a (conspiracy?) theory that it was the most profitable sleeper route but didn't fit neatly into a franchise so had to be scrapped. Or there's the (more realistic?) view that barely anybody used it.

 

[Mogz]

Maybe going off-topic slightly, but

Some cities just don't have enough demand for sleepers, although that doesn't necessarily mean it shouldn't be tried again.

If you're aiming to get to Bristol at ~08:00 for business travel, it would be noon by the time you're at Penzance. I thought the Night Riviera had the Bristol stop cut for more flexibility in case of overnight engineering work, so maybe not having any public stops between Stafford and Taunton would be better (those two as then there's options between Trent Valley, Bescot and Birmingham, and between Weston-super-Mare and Westbury).

I suppose the average Scotland-Bristol user would be more likely to be a business user whereas someone going on to Penzance is more likely to be a leisure traveller and therefore not as keen to get there before 9am.

I’d be interested to know how many passengers get the Highlander at Crewe as this would probably give an idea of how many would use a “middle of the night” sleeper service serving other cities.

Incidentally, does anyone have the timings for the last Scotland-SW/South sleeper services before they were axed?

For what it’s worth, I know we can’t have rose-tinted spectacles about these things- it’s a question of whether there would be demand.

For instance there would be no point in resurrecting sleepers such as Liverpool-London as these were only necessary in the days when the day services weren’t fast enough to get you to London before 9am with a reasonable start time in the morning.

 

[A S Leib]

For instance there would be no point in resurrecting sleepers such as Liverpool-London as these were only necessary in the days when the day services weren’t fast enough to get you to London before 9am with a reasonable start time in the morning.

Agreed. As much as I'd like a Stevenage – Newcastle sleeper, it's possible to leave Stevenage at 21:55 (changing at Grantham) or Newcastle at 21:35 and get to the other before 02:00, and 08:46 and 08:39 is probably the earliest getting to the other's really needed.

Given that HS2 phase 2 would have cut 50 minutes off of London – Glasgow, I wouldn't be surprised if London arrivals before 09:00 and last departures to Glasgow after 20:00 would (have been) implemented. I suppose that that's still too early if you're going to see an evening performance.

 

[robert thomas]

Unfortunately most of them are in the middle of the country so would be 'served' at unusable hours. The most plausible timings are either Bristol at ~0800 with an early Birmingham call, or Plymouth at ~0800 with an early Bristol call. Northbound you probably can't make any usefully-timed morning stops.

Timings might be feasible for an Aberdeen-Bristol portion, but I doubt demand would be huge. I'd use it, depending on route... but running me a private train definitely doesn't make sense!

AFAIK the old cross-country sleeper, in its near-final incarnation, assembled coaches from Edinburgh and Glasgow at Carlisle, ran down to Birmingham, where it was divided into Plymouth and Bournemouth portions. All rather complex, with effectively four portions to the train!

There's a (conspiracy?) theory that it was the most profitable sleeper route but didn't fit neatly into a franchise so had to be scrapped. Or there's the (more realistic?) view that barely anybody used it.

It was always well loaded when I used it and the buffet car was very sociable.

 

[Statto]

I suppose the average Scotland-Bristol user would be more likely to be a business user whereas someone going on to Penzance is more likely to be a leisure traveller and therefore not as keen to get there before 9am.

I’d be interested to know how many passengers get the Highlander at Crewe as this would probably give an idea of how many would use a “middle of the night” sleeper service serving other cities.

Incidentally, does anyone have the timings for the last Scotland-SW/South sleeper services before they were axed?

For what it’s worth, I know we can’t have rose-tinted spectacles about these things- it’s a question of whether there would be demand.

For instance there would be no point in resurrecting sleepers such as Liverpool-London as these were only necessary in the days when the day services weren’t fast enough to get you to London before 9am with a reasonable start time in the morning.

Crewe is not a middle of the night stop for the Highlander, given the service stops, 23.50 Northbound, & 05.30 Southbound, both Northbound & Southbound services connect with other trains, should anyone need other connecting trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Crewe is not a middle of the night stop for the Highlander, given the service stops, 23.50 Northbound, & 05.30 Southbound, both Northbound & Southbound services connect with other trains, should anyone need other connecting trains.

I've done the northbound but an 0530 start is *early*, I'd double back from London for that one. Doubling back from Birmingham will be quicker and much cheaper.

I think this would be a popular move even if it meant losing Crewe (there's always Preston for those who don't care for sleep and are tight on time).

One could argue you might as well keep Crewe but if you drop it you get more flexibility of routeing, a couple of additional options via Manchester then?

 

[A S Leib]

Can (or could, if drivers had the route knowledge but without any infrastructure works) Stoke be served in place of Crewe during engineering works?

 

[SuspectUsual]

What’s the minimum rest period between shifts for sleeper onboard staff? Would the duration of a Scotland to Cornwall sleeper be such that either the same crew couldn’t work back the night after arrival, or there’d need to be a crew change halfway? Either of them would mean more cost and complexity of course

 

[sh24]

Crewe is not a middle of the night stop for the Highlander, given the service stops, 23.50 Northbound, & 05.30 Southbound, both Northbound & Southbound services connect with other trains, should anyone need other connecting trains.

As noted above, it was popular when Rosyth was a naval dockyard. The closure killed the main passenger stream from Devonport.

Easyjet have multiple flights from BRS to EDI - well priced and only an hours flight time. I can't see a Sleeper competing against that on a commercial basis.

 

[swaldman]

Easyjet have multiple flights from BRS to EDI - well priced and only an hours flight time. I can't see a Sleeper competing against that on a commercial basis.

There are multiple flights between London and Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen, and Inverness...

 

[Scotrail84]

I imagine there would still be great demand for a Cornwall-Scotland sleeper too. I understand that there was one but privatisation killed it off as it would have fallen under the Cross Country franchise.

Such a service resurrected have the added advantage of leaving at a sociable hour for a reasonable morning arrival.

In terms of routing, it need not cannibalise existing sleeper demand either and could serve many cities that currently don’t have sleeper services at all.

One potential route could be:

Penzance-Plymouth-Exeter-Taunton-Bristol- Swindon-Reading [reverse] - Oxford-Coventry-Birmingham-Wolverhampton-Stafford-Stoke-Manchester [Split] then:

Portion 1 - Preston-Carlisle-Glasgow;

Portion 2 - Leeds-York-Newcastle-Edinburgh.

And I completely agree with the idea of pricing doubles/with shower at higher rates to subsidise classic/couchette/seated options.

It will never happen, theres no stock to do it and theres no way CAF would ever be commissioned to build additional vehicles given the absolute state the current ones are in. Plus there just wouldn't be the patronage to use it. Add in the fact that the route is just too long for it to be viable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Nov 2024 ==

Can (or could, if drivers had the route knowledge but without any infrastructure works) Stoke be served in place of Crewe during engineering works?

Any stations like Stoke would need to be manned during the night for the sleeper, all that comes at additional costs and the Transport Scotland would not pay for that.

 

[sh24]

There are multiple flights between London and Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen, and Inverness...

Hence why I said on a commercial basis. Unless the Scottish government want to bankroll another wildly expensive sleeper operation there is zero chance of it happening.

 

[The Planner]

Can (or could, if drivers had the route knowledge but without any infrastructure works) Stoke be served in place of Crewe during engineering works?

They divert that way if necessary, you would have a substantial overhang at Stoke, the platforms only just fit an 11 car 390.

 

[matchmaker]

A reasonable number of people living in Scotland viewed the Scotrail sleeper service as one provided so that they could travel to London, and points beyond, at reasonable cost without the need to spend an entire day on the journey. The current sleeper service is seen as catering to rich tourists who want to treat Scotland as a theme park.

The latter might be economically valuable, but is viewed as a reduction in useful service (as well as somewhat demeaning) by the first group of people.

The reverse, I believe - compartments on the Mark 3 stock that were configured for First Class passengers couldn't accommodate two people. So, at full occupancy, the new trains can accommodate more people.

I suspect that an all-Standard Mark 3 rake could (in theory) accommodate still more.

No. A Mk3 SLE (or SLEP) were designated just that - SLeeper Either way. The compartments were made up as either standard class (twin berth) or first class (top bunk folded away). The compartments were identical. The SLEP was a SLeeper Either way with Pantry - one compartment was made up as an attendants pantry. Externally both types were virtually identical.

 

[swaldman]

Hence why I said on a commercial basis. Unless the Scottish government want to bankroll another wildly expensive sleeper operation there is zero chance of it happening.

Oh, I see. I strongly doubt that *any* UK sleeper service could ever be viable on a fully commercial basis.

Nor, I tentatively suspect, are passenger railways in general, at least outside the London commuter zone. (I'm slightly interested in being wrong about this one, but this thread is not the place for it)

 

[12LDA28C]

If you're aiming to get to Bristol at ~08:00 for business travel, it would be noon by the time you're at Penzance. I thought the Night Riviera had the Bristol stop cut for more flexibility in case of overnight engineering work, so maybe not having any public stops between Stafford and Taunton would be better (those two as then there's options between Trent Valley, Bescot and Birmingham, and between Weston-super-Mare and Westbury).

When did the Night Riviera ever have a public stop at Bristol? It was always a crew stop whenever I did the train although the guard would often release the train doors at Temple Meads. Who wants to get to Bristol for 3am?

 

[Indigo Soup]

Easyjet have multiple flights from BRS to EDI - well priced and only an hours flight time. I can't see a Sleeper competing against that on a commercial basis.

There's a significant Glasgow-Bristol air passenger flow as well, about half of to the Edinburgh-Bristol flow. If (and it's a big if!) another sleeper route is viable anywhere, it's on that corridor.

Add in the fact that the route is just too long for it to be viable.

Sleepers are an awkward niche - too long, and they're not viable. Too short, and they're not viable. Journey time really needs to be not less than 6 hours and not more than 10 hours. 12 at a push, with the earliest possible departure and latest possible arrival.

No. A Mk3 SLE (or SLEP) were designated just that - SLeeper Either way. The compartments were made up as either standard class (twin berth) or first class (top bunk folded away). The compartments were identical. The SLEP was a SLeeper Either way with Pantry - one compartment was made up as an attendants pantry. Externally both types were virtually identical.

As noted up-thread, this wasn't a case of just folding the upper bunk in or out. There wasn't space on the train to store the necessary bedding etc., so operationally there were First Class and Standard compartments.

On the Mark 5 stock, the 'Club' - i.e. First Class - compartments can be configured for dual occupancy, and it's possible (though apparently not done) to convert between single and dual occupancy on the fly.

 

[A S Leib]

When did the Night Riviera ever have a public stop at Bristol? It was always a crew stop whenever I did the train although the guard would often release the train doors at Temple Meads. Who wants to get to Bristol for 3am?

That bit of my point may be wrong (but I'm unsure on serving Bristol on sleeper services unless it's the final stop rather than on the way to Cornwall). Would it be too impractical to divide a train somewhere (Crewe? Derby?), send a Cornwall portion and then have a Bristol portion following two hours later?