Caledonian Sleeper

[D6130]

It’s probably time to knock this on the head now isn’t it..?

Fully agree....it's just going round and round in circles!

 

[JamieL]

Fully agree....it's just going round and round in circles!

Happy to leave it as per the mod's direction - it would just have been nice to have got some of the detail behind the alleged harassment of customers.

For info, a key reason why people might be disturbed early is dependant upon their preferences articulated on their door card. Every customer gets the choice to be informed of programme changes or not - those who ask for such info will certainly be told. If you don't want to be told, be sure to check the right box on your breakfast card!

 

[BRX]

I use the sleeper now and again. Several times in the last 5-10 years I have been on it where it arrives early. The CS timetables have a "vacate rooms by" time on the timetable. It's a time of day, not a number of minutes after arrival. Therefore it's reasonable to assume it's independent of the actual arrival time. I'll plan things like when to set my alarm, when to start getting up, when to be ready to get off relative to the "vacate room by" time.

Several times when we've arrived early I've had the host knocking on the door telling us we've got five minutes or whatever, when in fact we've got 15 minutes or more until the allotted time. This leads to a somewhat stressful time trying to get everything packed up in a very small space in less time than planned. Whilst half asleep and with half finished cups of coffee balanced on the side somewhere. If there's two of you, it's actually not possible for both of you to be in there packing up simultaneously. So one of you is in the corridor dodging other passengers or waiting with half packed bags on the platform.

This is an actual thing that I have experienced more than once. Well I think it was but maybe I dreamed it all. Or maybe it happened but it serves me right for not being a morning person, automatically up and alert by 6am well before any possible early arrival, probably doing press-ups on the floor.

 

[driverd]

I don’t think it’s right to see a sleeper train in quite the same light as a hotel, either. Yet that comparison has been made a few times.

I don't think it's been made as a direct comparison for a second - but as has been eloquently explained by other posts, atleast in terms of the "vacate by" time, I'd argue its fair to see this as similar to a check out time.

I don't want to drag this on further but I think other posters somewhat miss the point. The vast majority of us are talking about actual lived experience. There's a lot of us (myself included) with a railway career who fully understand the operational railway - and because of this we can see the timing allowances made in the WTT (both LTP and in my case also in the STP for the day) - to honour those timings advertised to customers.

We understand that things change, but what is regrettable and arguably unacceptable, is not honouring a service offered and only providing such advice less than 6 hours before departure, leaving little time to make alternative plans.

I, personally, chose to travel. The staff were all very pleasant about the situation and it was handled well, not majorly impacting my day but, yes, putting a little bit of a dampener on it.

The frustration (in my case) was being asked to vacate my room 1 hour 35 earlier, in a different city to where planned. I could cope with being in the wrong city and re-plan accordingly, but what is frustrating is being forced to vacate aroubd an hour before the advertised disembarkation time for that destination, only for the train to sit there until well after the advertised disembarkation time.

As I'm likely to be accused of making this up or only giving a hear say account, here's the RTT journeys (I feel one particular member wouldn't believe me unless I attached a picture of my punched ticket but even I would say this is a bit far).

Realtime Trains | 1S26 2350 London Euston to Edinburgh | 08/05/2023

Real-time train running information for 1S26 2350 departure from London Euston to Edinburgh on 08/05/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5B26 0819 Edinburgh to Polmadie Car M.D. | 09/05/2023

Real-time train running information for 5B26 0819 departure from Edinburgh to Polmadie Car M.D. on 09/05/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

As I say, I'm not personally desperately upset by this disruption, but I would support the sentiment of other members here who would argue that a service business should really endeavour to provide the advertised service as much as is possible. I would say, in this case, that they let me down a little bit - especially when it's clear that the service (advertised check out time) could have been provided from a timetable/fleet perspective. If it was not provided due to staffing (eg: GLC crew finding themselves in EDB instead) I would fully understand this, but would appreciate this being explained and not blaming a "technical fault".

 

[JamieL]

It is quite exceptional for the CS to terminate ahead of one of its primary destinations. That isn't really a pointer to anything. Its frustrating but things like that happen on the railway from time to time.

 

[John Bishop]

Everyone was turfed out of the train at Perth on the northbound Highlander yesterday morning. They were then put onto a Scotrail train to Inverness which was probably a bit of a rude awakening for some!

 

[kylemore]

Presumably such a service would also require subsidy which is why it doesn’t exist.

This is a genuine question - does anybody know what the current level of subsidy for the CS is?

Or is it profitable?

 

[Caleb2010]

Everyone was turfed out of the train at Perth on the northbound Highlander yesterday morning. They were then put onto a Scotrail train to Inverness which was probably a bit of a rude awakening for some!

Oh dear, the next Inverness service from Perth- according to RTT - was two hours after the sleeper got there and was formed of 158703. Arrived in Inverness at 1100. Not exactly the experience the guests had in mind when they snuggled down in Euston.

 

[JamieL]

This is a genuine question - does anybody know what the current level of subsidy for the CS is?

Or is it profitable?

I suppose the question here is where do you draw the line? The Highlander undoubtedly feeds tourists into northern Scotland and contributes the economy there. It provides a useful commuter link for those who live in the north but work in London. Same, same for the Lowlander. Railways are, of course, heavily subsidised across the board.

 

[kylemore]

I suppose the question here is where do you draw the line? The Highlander undoubtedly feeds tourists into northern Scotland and contributes the economy there. It provides a useful commuter link for those who live in the north but work in London. Same, same for the Lowlander. Railways are, of course, heavily subsidised across the board.

As you say where do you draw the line - and it's a genuine query as to the level of subsidy. There are benefits to the Highlands Tourism economy and if the subsidy is not too high then it may well be justified, however without some idea of the figures I suppose further comment would be uninformed.

 

[najaB]

Or is it profitable?

No. But how many train services are?

 

[kylemore]

No. But how many train services are?

True.

However if for whatever reasons the "Royal Scotsman" ran at a loss should it be subsidised by you and me as taxpayers?

It is after all a "Train Service".

Economically both the CS and the "Royal Scotsman" are closed books to me. I can just about afford the ordinary subsidised daytime services taking advantage of saver and advanced tickets. I don't really want to be forced to pay for something i can't access.

 

[Trainbike46]

True.

However if for whatever reasons the "Royal Scotsman" ran at a loss should it be subsidised by you and me as taxpayers?

It is after all a "Train Service".

Economically both the CS and the "Royal Scotsman" are closed books to me. I can just about afford the ordinary subsidised daytime services taking advantage of saver and advanced tickets. I don't really want to be forced to pay for something i can't access.

For some journeys, CS seated options are affordable and make sense

 

[najaB]

However if for whatever reasons the "Royal Scotsman" ran at a loss should it be subsidised by you and me as taxpayers?

It is after all a "Train Service".

The Royal Scotsman isn't in the same class though: it doesn't exist to provide transportation from Point A to Point B, which Caledonian Sleeper does.

It's very much in the same vein as ocean liners vs cruise ships.

 

[kylemore]

The Royal Scotsman isn't in the same class though: it doesn't exist to provide transportation from Point A to Point B, which Caledonian Sleeper does.

It's very much in the same vein as ocean liners vs cruise ships.

Yes perhaps the comparison was a bit flippant.

The lines served by the sleeper already have evening and early morning services which I can reasonably access using advance and saver tickets.

You mention the reasonably priced "seated" portion of the sleeper - fair enough, a reasonable point however that is only a tiny part of the operation which is being subsidised (presumably) - again it would be interesting to find out what that subsidy is so that my comments could be better informed.

 

[JamieL]

The lines served by the sleeper already have evening and early morning services which I can reasonably access using advance and saver titickets.

What early morning service runs ahead of the sleeper to Fort William?

 

[Trainbike46]

Yes perhaps the comparison was a bit flippant.

The lines served by the sleeper already have evening and early morning services which I can reasonably access using advance and saver tickets.

You mention the reasonably priced "seated" portion of the sleeper - fair enough, a reasonable point however that is only a tiny part of the operation which is being subsidised (presumably) - again it would be interesting to find out what that subsidy is so that my comments could be better informed.

This link includes information on subsidy levels for all TOCs, though lots of caveats apply:

Table 7223 – Franchised Passenger Train Operator Finances by Franchise(latest year) | ORR Data Portal

In particular, 2021-2022 is not representative for many other years

 

[D6130]

What early morning service runs ahead of the sleeper to Fort William?

The 05 20 Glasgow Queen Street - Oban.

 

[JamieL]

The 05 20 Glasgow Queen Street - Oban.

Which goes to Oban. Not Fort William.

I know people think its "all Scotland" but, actually, Scotland is large.

This is why many people in the south don't really understand the benefits the CS brings to the north. It connects some very remote areas across Scotland with London.

Interestingly, if kylemore wanted to get the next earliest train from London to Fort William to get there for the mid-morning, he would need to leave at 1230 rather than 2115! And would have to find a hotel which would seemingly challenge his budget.

 

[D6130]

Which goes to Oban. Not Fort William.

I know people think its "all Scotland" but, actually, Scotland is large.

I know that Scotland is large....I was brought up there! The Oban train serves seven intermediate stations which are also served by the sleeper.

 

[JamieL]

I know that Scotland is large....I was brought up there! The Oban train serves seven intermediate stations which are also served by the sleeper.

But branches off at Cranlarich - so serves nothing further north - which is why I asked about Fort William.

 

[InOban]

The first coach from Glasgow to Fort William gets there at 9.40, it being much faster than the train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 May 2023 ==

But of no use if you're heading for Corrour etc.

 

[Bald Rick]

This is a genuine question - does anybody know what the current level of subsidy for the CS is?

Or is it profitable?

The sleepers haven’t been profitable during my entire 30year plus railway career, part of which was on the sleepers.

Just before COVID, the subsidy for the operator was in the region of £200 per passenger (including the seated passengers, and those travelling domestically on the seats in Scotland) comprising roughly £100 of subsidy from Scottish Government to CS, and £100 of Serco losses.

Prices and occupancy rates have risen since then, probably more so than costs, so I’d expect the gap to be smaller, but not much.

 

[kylemore]

What early morning service runs ahead of the sleeper to Fort William?

I didn't specify exactly when it ran but there is the 08.21. Yes the sleeper leaves at 05.48 but if the sleeper didn't exist there would probably be a recast of the first Fort William day train to somewhere in between. These things aren't set in stone.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 May 2023 ==

The sleepers haven’t been profitable during my entire 30year plus railway career, part of which was on the sleepers.

Just before COVID, the subsidy for the operator was in the region of £200 per passenger (including the seated passengers, and those travelling domestically on the seats in Scotland) comprising roughly £100 of subsidy from Scottish Government to CS, and £100 of Serco losses.

Prices and occupancy rates have risen since then, probably more so than costs, so I’d expect the gap to be smaller, but not much.

Thanks for the info - now I've got a vague idea what I'm talking about!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 May 2023 ==

This link includes information on subsidy levels for all TOCs, though lots of caveats apply:

Table 7223 – Franchised Passenger Train Operator Finances by Franchise(latest year) | ORR Data Portal

In particular, 2021-2022 is not representative for many other years

Thanks for the link!

 

[43066]

my entire 30year plus railway career, part of which was on the sleepers.

Do you mean sleeper trains, or sleepers in the p-way sense?!

 

[Bald Rick]

Do you mean sleeper trains, or sleepers in the p-way sense?!

Yes!

 

[Cantab26]

This is a genuine question - does anybody know what the current level of subsidy for the CS is?

Or is it profitable?

It depends on how you define ‘subsidy’, really.

For the year ending 31 March 2022 the sleeper operating company received about £35.8m from Transport Scotland.

For year ending 31 March 2019 (i.e. the last full year before the world ended) the equivalent sum was about £23m.

In both cases, total turnover was roughly £47m.

The company has never been profitable and, as far as I am aware, has never paid a dividend.

 

[43096]

Unacceptable to whom? A few people on here perhaps, but seemingly not the people who pack out the CS constantly.

Here we go again, you back the railway every time regardless of if it is acceptable or not. If CS are advertising you can occupy til 8am and staff are giving people the hurry up significantly before that, then it is not acceptable. It's poor service.

The reality is that it is a train, not a hotel, so will be subject to railway operational constraints.

Ah, here we have it. The railway is somehow special and can treat customers badly just because it is the railway. What are those "operational constraints"? Taking the Euston arrivals as an example, the Lowlander says vacate by 0730, the ECS to Wembley is timetabled for 0759. Likewise the vacate time for the Highlander is 0800, with ECS off at 0850. So no reason there to be shooing customers out.

 

[43066]

Here we go again, you back the railway every time regardless of if it is acceptable or not.

Actually, no I don’t. I just try to provide some valuable real world perspective.

As explained above, people are advised to check on the day for late alterations, so I don’t really see the basis for complaint. In any case, it doesn’t matter what I think. It’s clearly acceptable to the people who use the service and pay the fares. If I was Caledonian Sleeper I’d listen to them rather than anonymous internet commentators.

Ah, here we have it. The railway is somehow special and can treat customers badly just because it is the railway.

This forum doesn’t reflect most customers, and certainly doesn’t speak for them. A case in point; the customer upthread who dared to say he was happy with the service was shouted down and told he’s wrong. That speaks volumes.

 

[Davester50]

This forum doesn’t reflect most customers, and certainly doesn’t speak for them. A case in point; the customer upthread who dared to say he was happy with the service was shouted down and told he’s wrong. That speaks volumes.

Several corroborated accounts were told they didn't happen. That speaks volumes too!