Caledonian Sleeper

[Davester50]

Their publicity is honest - or at least nobody has actually posted any evidence to the contrary whilst there is clear evidence that information is provided well in advance. I don't doubt some people might have had a negative experience - that happens in all forms of public transport - but I am far from convinced from the comments posted so far there is actually an issue. Indeed, having 'shaken the tree' with some of the comments, it seems to evident the provenance behind them is pretty ropey. Thankfully there are plenty of other means of transport available so such individuals can travel by other means.

Again, as you get off immediately, how would you know?

Last year I even took a pdf of the RTT page for the train where we arrived at 0729 (17 minutes early) at Euston, and had the passive aggressive hurry up, despite the vacate by 0800.

 

[43066]

What we are all saying is that it is unacceptable for CS to state that you can arrive in the cabins past arrival and then not allow that, or in any way hassle people to leave them before the specified time, and that applies totally regardless of the reason (bar the train being on fire or somehow else unsafe for any people to be inside it, and I'd expect a proactive refund in that case, just as I'd expect a refund if my Premier Inn caught fire). A bit operationally awkward? Tough. Staff a bit tired? Tough.

Unacceptable to whom? A few people on here perhaps, but seemingly not the people who pack out the CS constantly. The reality is that it is a train, not a hotel, so will be subject to railway operational constraints.

There is a page entry for every single day. The email instructions tell you to look at it!

So if sounds as though the information around early arrival is made available to people in advance, should they wish to look at it. In which case it’s a little difficult to see what the complaint is.

 

[najaB]

So if sounds as though the information around early arrival is made available to people in advance, should they wish to look at it. In which case it’s a little difficult to see what the complaint is.

While I do think it's a non-issue in the grand scheme of things, perhaps CS should change their marketing blub such that passengers/guests are clear that while they should be able to occupy the berth up to a certain time, there's no guarantee on any particular day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unacceptable to whom? A few people on here perhaps, but seemingly not the people who pack out the CS constantly. The reality is that it is a train, not a hotel, so will be subject to railway operational constraints.

As a customer it is unacceptable to me that I'm sold something that isn't consistently delivered, whatever it is.

If it isn't going to be consistently delivered, just don't sell it! That is, simply remove from the timetable the "cabins must be vacated by" line entirely. If they are sure that they are going to offer it on that occasion, stewards can inform people of the situation on the day as they board.

I really, really don't understand why people object to the idea that the publicity should simply be honest and reflect the situation as it is at least 99.9% of the time, even if an emergency that occurs during the night might change it on very odd occasions.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 May 2023 ==

While I do think it's a non-issue in the grand scheme of things, perhaps CS should change their marketing blub such that passengers/guests are clear that while they should be able to occupy the berth up to a certain time, there's no guarantee on any particular day.

Precisely.

I'm not saying that tipping people out on arrival is unacceptable, I'm saying that claiming you can stay on board unless that's the case other than in really extreme situations e.g. the train being on fire or a power failure is dishonest and unacceptable.

It sits alongside my strong support for emergency timetables on TOCs that are failing to operate the published one. It's important to set the correct, honest expectations at all times - any business that doesn't (true emergencies aside) is a bad business.

 

[43066]

While I do think it's a non-issue in the grand scheme of things, perhaps CS should change their marketing blub such that passengers/guests are clear that while they should be able to occupy the berth up to a certain time, there's no guarantee on any particular day.

If it isn't going to be consistently delivered, just don't sell it! That is, simply remove from the timetable the "cabins must be vacated by" line entirely. If they are sure that they are going to offer it on that occasion, stewards can inform people of the situation on the day as they board.

They could perhaps put an asterisk on the “cabins must be vacated by” line, to the effect that arrivals might be earlier than timetabled, and please check the daily updates on the website to confirm.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They could perhaps put an asterisk on the “cabins must be vacated by” line, to the effect that arrivals might be earlier than timetabled, and please check the daily updates on the website to confirm.

That would be reasonable. Or I'd go with something like "It may be possible to stay in the cabin a short while after arrival depending on operational constraints. If you wish to do this, please ask your steward as you board to confirm if it will be possible".

 

[43066]

That would be reasonable. Or I'd go with something like "It may be possible to stay in the cabin a short while after arrival depending on operational constraints. If you wish to do this, please ask your steward as you board to confirm if it will be possible".

It’s certainly a breath of fresh air to see people complaining about trains arriving early for a change .

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s certainly a breath of fresh air to see people complaining about trains arriving early for a change .

There is that!

 

[Tormod]

And I ride trains for fun, so I'd imagine do most on here, however plenty of people don't.

However, I have a massive problem with businesses not delivering what they advertise.

Absolutely.

 

[SuspectUsual]

So if sounds as though the information around early arrival is made available to people in advance, should they wish to look at it. In which case it’s a little difficult to see what the complaint is

A lot of CS bookings are made a long way in advance, and people will have planned around the information available at the time. Of course stuff happens that can cause the reality to be different on the day, but the staff wanting to have an easier life isn’t one of them in my book.

 

[LickeyIncliner]

You said yourself they advertise 20-40 minutes to disembark (though I’ve not seen that personally).

The Lowlander timetables at https://www.sleeper.scot/timetables/ clearly show "vacate rooms by" times 20-40 minutes after arrival

 

[JamieL]

A lot of CS bookings are made a long way in advance, and people will have planned around the information available at the time. Of course stuff happens that can cause the reality to be different on the day, but the staff wanting to have an easier life isn’t one of them in my book.

This doesn't really withstand scrutiny. If you train is due in at 0712, with a vacate rooms requirement of 0730, are you really telling me your world will fall apart if the train arrives at 0700 and you are asked to vacate rooms by 0720? Will that differential so wreck your plans and render you so sleep deprived that you are then incapable of doing anything?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 May 2023 ==

The Lowlander timetables at https://www.sleeper.scot/timetables/ clearly show "vacate rooms by" times 20-40 minutes after arrival

It also contains a massive emboldened note saying check times before travelling.

 

[43066]

A lot of CS bookings are made a long way in advance, and people will have planned around the information available at the time. Of course stuff happens that can cause the reality to be different on the day, but the staff wanting to have an easier life isn’t one of them in my book.

Anyone booking a ticket does so according to the Ts and Cs in place which, AIUI, includes varying arrival times as updated on the day. If you don’t like that you are free not to use the sleeper - clearly many people are happy with the present arrangements, given that it’s often fully booked, so I agree with the comment upthread that this is only seen as a problem on this forum.

It seems a little unbecoming to blame the crew who have little control over when they arrive. Staff doing a job where they work an overnight train from one end of the UK to another don’t exactly strike me as people looking for an easy life. Perhaps next time you use it you should give them a tip and say thank you!

The Lowlander timetables at https://www.sleeper.scot/timetables/ clearly show "vacate rooms by" times 20-40 minutes after arrival

It also doesn’t state “you are guaranteed to be able to remain in your room until this time” (albeit I agree it could be made a little clearer, as above).

 

[JamieL]

One element not yet explored on this thread is what the 'harassment' to leave a cabin actually looks like. If the arrival is due at 0710 with a vacate cabins by 0730 requirement, surely it is right and proper to expect the individual to be prompted 30mins before hand to allow them sufficient time to get washed and dressed? As such, prompts can and should be expected to occur before arrival. I can say I have never seen this when arriving at a terminus station, which again makes me sceptical of some of the claims on the thread. It does indeed occur when I am disembarking at an intermediate stop. But that is not harassment - it is good customer management.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This doesn't really withstand scrutiny. If you train is due in at 0712, with a vacate rooms requirement of 0730, are you really telling me your world will fall apart if the train arrives at 0700 and you are asked to vacate rooms by 0720? Will that differential so wreck your plans and render you so sleep deprived that you are then incapable of doing anything?

I like my sleep and plan my mornings well, so I'd be still not dressed at 0700 if I had planned to vacate by 0720, I might even be on the loo.

You might be an early riser. One of the most annoying things about early risers is how they sanctimoniously look down their noses at us evening people. You're just doing that. Please try to understand that for some of us it's important that they do what they say they will, and change what they say in line with what they do if necessary.

 

[najaB]

This doesn't really withstand scrutiny. If you train is due in at 0712, with a vacate rooms requirement of 0730, are you really telling me your world will fall apart if the train arrives at 0700 and you are asked to vacate rooms by 0720? Will that differential so wreck your plans and render you so sleep deprived that you are then incapable of doing anything?

Would it destroy my day and completely wreck my plans? No. Would I be a bit miffed? Probably, yes.

And that's kind of the point - CS ticket prices are now at the premium end of the market, so they need to provide premium end of the market service. Unnecessarily annoying your customers isn't premium service.

 

[JamieL]

I like my sleep and plan my mornings well, so I'd be still not dressed at 0700 if I had planned to vacate by 0720, I might even be on the loo.

I really don't know what to say to this, other than none of this the railway's problem. If you have to plan your mornings to the minute and are unable to adapt to changing arrival times, I would very gently suggest train travel is not for you, let alone the CS.

Would it destroy my day and completely wreck my plans? No. Would I be a bit miffed? Probably, yes.

And that's kind of the point - CS ticket prices are now at the premium end of the market, so they need to provide premium end of the market service. Unnecessarily annoying your customers isn't premium service.

I don't think its a premium service - the tickets really aren't that much more expensive than an Anytime First.

 

[najaB]

I don't think its a premium service - the tickets really aren't that much more expensive than an Anytime First.

Which, by definition, is a premium service!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I really don't know what to say to this, other than none of this the railway's problem. If you have to plan your mornings to the minute and are unable to adapt to changing arrival times, I would very gently suggest train travel is not for you, let alone the CS.

You're doing it again. A highly sanctimonious statement.

All I'm asking is that the publicity accurately reflects the situation on the ground. What aren't you getting about that? You've not answered, I note, if you'd find it OK to be booted out of a Premier Inn earlier than stated.

I don't think its a premium service - the tickets really aren't that much more expensive than an Anytime First.

First Anytime tickets are not reasonably priced. They are priced at a VERY premium level.

The comparison is an Off Peak or evening Advance and a Premier Inn.

 

[JamieL]

You're doing it again.

All I'm asking is that the publicity accurately reflects the situation on the ground. What aren't you getting about that?

Because it is accurate and the described "situation on the ground" doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Indeed, some of the arguments have become ridiculous - we have had 'the website wasn't there in 1996', we have had 'person on the loo' and we have had 'don't care about the documentation'. The information is clearly available and users cannot be any doubt as to timings unless they are being wilfully blind to the website, the emails and the text messages.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because it is accurate and the described "situation on the ground" doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Indeed, some of the arguments have become ridiculous - we have had 'the website wasn't there in 1996', we have had 'person on the loo' and we have had 'don't care about the documentation'. The information is clearly available and users cannot be any doubt as to timings unless they are being wilfully blind to the website, the emails and the text messages.

How do you know it is? You yourself stated you always alight on arrival. Thus you can't make that statement.

It's simple. Say what you'll do at the time of booking and stick to it. If that might change later, don't say it at all.

 

[JamieL]

How do you know it is? You yourself stated you always alight on arrival. Thus you can't make that statement.

I absolutely can - as vacate times are so close to arrival times, it is entirely reasonable to expect that such alleged "harassment" would be evident before the train arrived in station. I have never seen it despite dozens of journeys in recent years.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I absolutely can - as vacate times are so close to arrival times, it is entirely reasonable to expect that such alleged "harassment" would be evident before the train arrived in station. I have never seen it despite dozens of journeys in recent years.

So no, you can't, then. Thanks, that seems clear.

 

[najaB]

I absolutely can - as vacate times are so close to arrival times, it is entirely reasonable to expect that such alleged "harassment" would be evident before the train arrived in station. I have never seen it despite dozens of journeys in recent years.

Without wanting to exacerbate this any, you do realise that the position you are espousing is basically: "It's impossible for you to have seen the thing that you saw, because I have never seen it.", right?

It would be fair for you to say that it's not common or widespread, but to my mind your absolutism is unsupportable.

 

[John Bishop]

Without wanting to exacerbate this any, you do realise that the position you are espousing is basically: "It's impossible for you to have seen the thing that you saw, because I have never seen it.", right?

It would be fair for you to say that it's not common or widespread, but to my mind your absolutism is unsupportable.

Indeed.

Jamie L, perhaps it best you stop digging yourself a deeper hole. Your on a hiding to nothing trying to convince people your right and they’re wrong.

Oh and by the way, I’ve witnessed the eager hosts trying to kick everyone out ASAP at EUS after an early arrival, and not just once either.

 

[JamieL]

Oh and by the way, I’ve witnessed the eager hosts trying to kick everyone out ASAP at EUS after an early arrival, and not just once either.

Can you describe the details please? e.g. timings, date, lowlander/highlander etc. Something I have asked for several times now with no results forthcoming.

For the record, I am not interested in trying to convince anyone they are right or wrong. The fact the CS often reaches capacity suggests there isn't a problem so it doesn't really matter if some posters/potential customers feel they might be on the loo and unable to disembark early!

 

[Davester50]

Can you describe the details please? e.g. timings, date, lowlander/highlander etc. Something I have asked for several times now with no results forthcoming.

For the record, I am not interested in trying to convince anyone they are right or wrong. The fact the CS often reaches capacity suggests there isn't a problem so it doesn't really matter if some posters/potential customers feel they might be on the loo and unable to disembark early!

I've already told you I have the pdf for the 17 minute early arrival. I can prove that.
I don't have a recording of the hovering steward, and even then if I did, I bet you'd complain there's no timestamped image, or screenshot of that days timetable to say when you must alight at.

However you, who alights on arrival, can never prove something you can't be physically able to see.
It's quite funny though. Your everyone's wrong and I'm right passive aggressiveness would fit in well with the chuck-em-off on arrival practice on CS. You don't have, or fancy a job there?

 

[Steve Harris]

I've already told you I have the pdf for the 17 minute early arrival. I can prove that.
I don't have a recording of the hovering steward, and even then if I did, I bet you'd complain there's no timestamped image, or screenshot of that days timetable to say when you must alight at.

However you, who alights on arrival, can never prove something you can't be physically able to see.
It's quite funny though. Your everyone's wrong and I'm right passive aggressiveness would fit in well with the chuck-em-off on arrival practice on CS. You don't have, or fancy a job there?

What a stellar post !!

 

[JamieL]

I've already told you I have the pdf for the 17 minute early arrival. I can prove that.
I don't have a recording of the hovering steward, and even then if I did, I bet you'd complain there's no timestamped image, or screenshot of that days timetable to say when you must alight at.

However you, who alights on arrival, can never prove something you can't be physically able to see.
It's quite funny though. Your everyone's wrong and I'm right passive aggressiveness would fit in well with the chuck-em-off on arrival practice on CS. You don't have, or fancy a job there?

The fact the CS arrives early is not in doubt - the info I am trying to glean is what do you mean by a hovering steward? Presumably you were in your cabin so were they in there with you? Holding the door open? Knocking every second? If not, how did it impact upon you inside the cabin? If they were in the corridor, they would been blocking it - so how did that work with everyone else getting off? And was the attention all directed on you? Even though there are only a handful of stewards onboard and many coaches? Why was that? Was there any disruption that meant the platform was required? If the train was only 17mins early, at most then you were being asked to disembark 45mins ahead of the very latest of when you might have otherwise expected - are you sure the steward wasn't just making sure you were up and about to ensure the train wasn't delayed in departing? Was the steward delivery breakfast to you at the same time as "hastening" you - if so are you sure it wasn't just informing you of the train's arrival? etc etc

I say again, its not about right and wrong. Its just that some of the "facts" being spouted are clearly nonsense. By way of example, you say I can have no experience of the harassment as I alight on arrival - but given the 20mins on arrival average vacate times, that means that no harassment starts until D-20mins. As such, is that harassment or just customer prompting to ensure the train - and thus the broader railway - stay on time? If someone is still asleep and/or in their pants with just minutes to go before the train is due to depart, then they probably do need a gentle nudge don't they?

 

[Cowley]

It’s probably time to knock this on the head now isn’t it..?