Caledonian Sleeper

[Bald Rick]

The best* that could happen is to redeploy the existing resources away from routes that have low bookings / yields to routes that have the potential for higher bookings / yields.

*definition of best being reducing subsidy whilst (potentially) increasing choice / destinations.

 

[Iskra]

if the issue is demand but upping supply would cost more in situations like this wouldnt a potential solution be upping capacity on same supply via conversion of a few carriages to couchettes?

The danger here is that the lazy (/cost effective) solution here is just to put the prices up (further) on the popular routes. That way subsidy is reduced with zero investment required- the beancounter’s dream.

 

[Roast Veg]

The danger here is that the lazy (/cost effective) solution here is just to put the prices up (further) on the popular routes. That way subsidy is reduced with zero investment.

You can only do that for the non-seated passengers though can't you? And driving custom over to flights by cranking the prices up even further will probably produce a net loss.

 

[Iskra]

You can only do that for the non-seated passengers though can't you? And driving custom over to flights by cranking the prices up even further will probably produce a net loss.

I’m not arguing for it, I’m just saying that objectively it is the easiest option.

It depends how many tourists wanting an experience are willing to pay it, they are probably the ones who will pay the prices regardless. That’s the danger of the Serco marketing drawing in the rich experience-seeking tourists that could lead to residents along the route being priced out during the high season. If the demand is there, there would be no loss to flights, both would be busier as the Sleeper attracts more tourists and the flights (or more realistically, the day train+hotel folk) attract the more cost-sensitive.

 

[Trainbike46]

Worth remembering that every sleeper passenger is subsidised by Scottish Government to the tune of nearly £100 (and that includes the seated passengers). Running more trains means more subsidy.

which leads to the question - why is this service in particular so expensive to run? Specifically because apparently Serco is also turning a loss over the length of the franchise.

Because, if anything it seems like 16 coach trains that do sell out with relatively high fares shouldn't require that much subsidy.

Are the mark 5a coaches really expensive to lease? Is it higher staffing levels? Is it the lower-density layout? Is it hiring in the locos from the FOCs?

Is there any potential to get the subsidy down if it were to move back to Scotrail operation (like, more efficient staff diagramming for example)?

 

[Roast Veg]

Are the mark 5a coaches really expensive to lease? Is it higher staffing levels? Is it the lower-density layout? Is it hiring in the locos from the FOCs?

All of the above I would have thought.

 

[Bald Rick]

Are the mark 5a coaches really expensive to lease? Is it higher staffing levels? Is it the lower-density layout?

That’s three yesses!

Fundamentally, a sleeper train needs specialist (= expensive) rolling stock, which is used for one revenue earning trip per day (= poor utilisation), with a high level of staffing required per passenger for the operation and servicing (= high operation costs) and an average of around 15 people per coach.

Is there any potential to get the subsidy down if it were to move back to Scotrail operation (like, more efficient staff diagramming for example)?

There will be some, but I’d doubt if it realised more than 5-10% of all costs. Most of the staff involved in the sleeper operation have to be dedicated to it because of the work involved and the hours.

 

[Trainbike46]

That’s three yesses!

Fundamentally, a sleeper train needs specialist (= expensive) rolling stock, which is used for one revenue earning trip per day (= poor utilisation), with a high level of staffing required per passenger for the operation and servicing (= high operation costs) and an average of around 15 people per coach.

I didn't realise it was that few. Is there any way to densify the layouts?

I guess you could change the seated coach to 2+2

Also makes you wonder what is so different about the OEBB NightJet trains - which were reportedly mostly profitable before covid. Is it just that the different gauge means more passengers per coach, plus the larger fleet and high level of similarity with other OEBB fleets reduces the disadvantage?

 

[alistairlees]

I didn't realise it was that few. Is there any way to densify the layouts?

I guess you could change the seated coach to 2+2

Also makes you wonder what is so different about the OEBB NightJet trains - which were reportedly mostly profitable before covid. Is it just that the different gauge means more passengers per coach, plus the larger fleet and high level of similarity with other OEBB fleets reduces the disadvantage?

They just hide the real costs somewhere else.

 

[ABB125]

Also makes you wonder what is so different about the OEBB NightJet trains - which were reportedly mostly profitable before covid. Is it just that the different gauge means more passengers per coach, plus the larger fleet and high level of similarity with other OEBB fleets reduces the disadvantage?

I would guess that things like locomotive maintenance aren't considered in the figures associated with NightJet, because they use a relatively small proportion of OeBB's (much larger than actually needed) Taurus fleet. Thus most maintenance costs will be accounted for by the bigger users (such as RailJet and freight). That's one of the advantages on an integrated railway, you can manipulate the figures...
(Which I'm not saying is a bad thing; I'd love to have more sleeper services, at lower prices and with a greater range of accommodation, in the UK.)

 

[MrS99]

The batteries on the Mk5s last for about 45-60 mins after which you lose door interlock and brake release. So, no.

Batteries have a 90 minute life on Mk V coaches just for future reference

 

[Essexman]

Text from CS.
Southbound Highlander tonight may be delayed by speed restrictions due to heavy rain in East Scotland.
I’m travelling from Inverness and will be quite happy to be an hour late and receive refund. Text says arrival Euston may be 8.30.
CS are good at informing passengers by text.

 

[Caleb2010]

Arrived in to Inverness a while ago, on sleeper tonight, saw just the 73 at the head of the stock and no sign of 66769!

Only 7 cars tonight so if the 66 has gone off somewhere I imagine the 73 will cope!

Strange as it still appears on RTT as double headed just like normal??

 

[boom boom]

Arrived in to Inverness a while ago, on sleeper tonight, saw just the 73 at the head of the stock and no sign of 66769!

Only 7 cars tonight so if the 66 has gone off somewhere I imagine the 73 will cope!

Strange as it still appears on RTT as double headed just like normal??

The 66 is back up front. Was away on a training trip

 

[Caleb2010]

Thought it’d be something simple! Thanks for that

 

[Essexman]

Thought it’d be something simple! Thanks for that

66 definitely at the front.

Last time I travelled from Inverness the 73 tried and failed on its own, so I’m glad to see it’s got assistance today.

I read that Aberdeen line currently close near Stonehaven due to flooding so wonder if that portion will get through.

Staff still saying 8.30 arrival for us.

 

[Caleb2010]

Yes, the lady in the lounge said, currently 0830, RTT has been altered accordingly.

Real Time Trains shows everything heading down the Highland Main Line as VVR - has that replaced VAR or does it mean something different!!

 

[zwk500]

Yes, the lady in the lounge said, currently 0830, RTT has been altered accordingly.

Real Time Trains shows everything heading down the Highland Main Line as VVR - has that replaced VAR or does it mean something different!!

VAR equivalent of VSTP, so a further change to an existing VAR schedule made on the day.

 

[Essexman]

Yes, the lady in the lounge said, currently 0830, RTT has been altered accordingly.

Real Time Trains shows everything heading down the Highland Main Line as VVR - has that replaced VAR or does it mean something different!!

There were only six of us in the lounge so I have a choice of five in guessing who Caleb2010 may be!

 

[BRX]

I wonder what's the average number of participants on this thread that are travelling on the sleeper on any given night.

 

[Essexman]

Inverness portion is running on time. We just passed Tring.
Fort William cancelled.
Aberdeen last heard off at Kirkcaldy at 05.30?

 

[Morayshire]

Inverness portion is running on time. We just passed Tring.
Fort William cancelled.
Aberdeen last heard off at Kirkcaldy at 05.30?

Northbound to Aberdeen went through Arbroath around 06:30

Inverness portion is running on time. We just passed Tring.
Fort William cancelled.
Aberdeen last heard off at Kirkcaldy at 05.30?

Southbound Aberdeen at Edinburgh Waverly at 0615 according to Real Time Trains. Looks like a long wait at Stonehaven but roads n rail up there are not in a good state weather wise at the moment

 

[Essexman]

Landslip at Stonehaven according to CS staff.
No shunt at Edinburgh for Inverness portion so we made up the bit of time late and arrived early at Euston.
Easy run for the 92 with just 7 coaches.

 

[furgus2]

Inverness portion is running on time. We just passed Tring.
Fort William cancelled.
Aberdeen last heard off at Kirkcaldy at 05.30?

I wonder why the Fort William was cancelled. I thought the bad weather disruption was in the east.

 

[JModulo]

I wonder why the Fort William was cancelled. I thought the bad weather disruption was in the east.

The 66 off it was used to assist another train.

 

[furgus2]

The 66 off it was used to assist another train.

Thanks for the information

 

[jfowkes]

My perception from this thread is that the sleeper is so unreliable that I stand the reasonable chance of getting my money back from any particular trip.

I quite like the extra excitement this brings to the sleeper experience. Not only a "hotel on wheels" it's a gambling den as well.

 

[paul1609]

I dont have any experience of the sleeper in the last 3 years but prior to that the Fort William southbound mid week in November was the really quiet time lucky to make double numbers on the whole train.

 

[furgus2]

I used to travel on the sleeper a few times a year back in the Scotrail days especially when they had offers available such as a £99 1st class return between London and the Highlands and also the sleeper supplement with a Rover ticket was at a reasonable price. Then came a few experiences which put me off: being stuck in Fort William overnight due to a land slip; having to disembark late night at Bridge of Orchy due to a failed locomotive and then through the night on a coach to Glasgow; finally, on my last Mk3 journe, the cabin was in a really poor state.

I have not travelled on the Mk5 stock yet but I’m actually booked to Fort William this Sunday. Still in two minds as to whether or not to go ahead with this as the prospect of any possible disruption overnight really puts me off.

 

[Techniquest]

Go for it I say, worth a try. Even I'm tempted to book again next year, and if the disruption keeps happening I'll have a nice and cheap trip