Caledonian Sleeper

[31160]

Hello I was looking on the Network Rail future engineering work page for Sunday the 29th of Jan, and for the Highland sleeper it states work is taking place at various locations and the 20.59 Eus-Inv will be diverted via a alternate route, The Abd portion i starting from Dundee with bus, but I was just wondering if there might be anything juicy in the diversions, can't remember MK 5s going via dumfries yet? Anyway any info would be appreciated thanks

 

[Falcon1200]

Is it this that originally drove the arrangement of having no sleepers on a Saturday night, or was it to do with demand, perhaps in times when it was more business travel oriented?

IIRC in the days when trains ran overnight on the WCML, the Sunday service started much later in the day than it does now, thus leaving time for maintenance.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Could the existing "lowlander" be extended to Inverness by maybe "set down only" stop at Glasgow Central low level ?

 

[Falcon1200]

Could the existing "lowlander" be extended to Inverness by maybe "set down only" stop at Glasgow Central low level ?

It would need quite a complicated routing to achieve that, doubt if the platform at Central Low Level could accommodate it, but more importantly, the same question applies as to the suggested extension of the Aberdeen portion to Inverness; Is there sufficient spare capacity for enough Inverness passengers to justify the huge additional operating cost?

 

[The Planner]

Hello I was looking on the Network Rail future engineering work page for Sunday the 29th of Jan, and for the Highland sleeper it states work is taking place at various locations and the 20.59 Eus-Inv will be diverted via a alternate route, The Abd portion i starting from Dundee with bus, but I was just wondering if there might be anything juicy in the diversions, can't remember MK 5s going via dumfries yet? Anyway any info would be appreciated thanks

No wires, therefore a full set won't ever be going that way.

 

[31160]

No wires, therefore a full set won't ever be going that way.

Yeah I know it won't be a 92 but they could always get a shed and a 73, definitely been that way with a pair of skips and a pair of 37s before now

 

[Bald Rick]

These were the time savings announced in Parliament before the scrapping of Golborne. The current assessment is, by connecting to the WCML near Crewe, HS2 will slow journey times to Scotland:

HS2 | Engineers warn cancelling Golborne link ‘hobbles the value’ of high-speed rail network | New Civil Engineer

It comes after last week’s revelation by Tory MP for Altrincham and Sale West and chair of the 1922 Committee Sir Graham Brady that he has received verbal

www.newcivilengineer.com

That article is speculation, and nowhere does it say that journey times via HS2 to Scotland would be slower than today without Golborne. And, obviously, they won’t be - they’ll be 36/37 mins quicker Euston to Crewe (passing), before losing a little time (but not much) due to lack of tilt north thereof.

To bring this back on topic, it is reasonable to assume that when HS2 does open, the lowlander will be under pressure; thats If it is still around by then.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That article is speculation, and nowhere does it say that journey times via HS2 to Scotland would be slower than today without Golborne. And, obviously, they won’t be - they’ll be 36/37 mins quicker Euston to Crewe (passing), before losing a little time (but not much) due to lack of tilt north thereof.

To bring this back on topic, it is reasonable to assume that when HS2 does open, the lowlander will be under pressure; thats If it is still around by then.

Also by then the GWR Mk3 sleepers will be 60+ years old, and scrapping the Lowlander to send them some coaches would be the easiest way to deal with that short of fitting an 80x with beds.

 

[Tester]

Also by then the GWR Mk3 sleepers will be 60+ years old, and scrapping the Lowlander to send them some coaches would be the easiest way to deal with that short of fitting an 80x with beds.

Here's just the thing

An 80x with beds (Japanese version)

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Will there be enough class 73/9 locos for these projected additional services, let alone stock?

If the network was to expand to 6 Scottish destinations rather than the present 5 there would be an immediate requirement for additional Lounge, Seated and Accessible Sleeping vehicles. Taking it a step further if a third service was part of that package, the opportunity would present to order some sleepers with 4 berth compartments - 7 or maybe 8 compartments in coach providing a budget 'couchette style' option for each destination.

A third service could be Inverness direct via Mossend taking out the time consuming diversion via Edinburgh - traction change at Stirling? Bigger trains north of class 92 territory could raise ETH capability questions.

An order for further Caley Sleeper stock would present the opportunity to also provide new stock for the Penzance service.

I will conclude this post by noting in the current climate it is very unlikely government either Westminster or Holyrood would have much appetite for investment in new stock!

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the network was to expand to 6 Scottish destinations rather than the present 5 there would be an immediate requirement for additional Lounge, Seated and Accessible Sleeping vehicles. Taking it a step further if a third service was part of that package, the opportunity would present to order some sleepers with 4 berth compartments - 7 or maybe 8 compartments in coach providing a budget 'couchette style' option for each destination.

As well as 4s, you'd have an option for a more budget single cabin by "interlocking" two singles, so they would alternate upper berth only, lower berth only etc (but with a full height aisle). It'd be cosy, but could be priced nearer to half a 2 because they'd take up more like that amount of space.

 

[XAM2175]

Yeah I know it won't be a 92 but they could always get a shed and a 73, definitely been that way with a pair of skips and a pair of 37s before now

Remember that only the 92s can supply enough ETH for a full 16-car rake of Mk 5s. The cars do have onboard batteries that are theoretically meant to provide breathing room for disruption and diversion, but for any long periods of time you'd need to split the rake into a length that could be managed by a 67 or 73/9.

 

[Furrball]

Top and tail 73 with ETS cables split mid train, plus any suitable additionall motive power up front?

 

[Speed43125]

Remember that only the 92s can supply enough ETH for a full 16-car rake of Mk 5s. The cars do have onboard batteries that are theoretically meant to provide breathing room for disruption and diversion, but for any long periods of time you'd need to split the rake into a length that could be managed by a 67 or 73/9.

Presumably with too top and tailing and simply leaving the train electrically separate (ie. Just couple the dellners of the two half sets together) it'd be possible. Can't see any reason why you'd ever want to do that though.

Edit: beaten to it

 

[Unstoppable]

67s could be used with no time penalty for Aberdeen and Inverness, for Fort William you'd have to go back to the speed restrictions over various bridges.

The current timings are the exact same as when 67s operated up to the Fort

 

[williamn]

I have been trying to book Thursday 29 Dec or Wed 28 Dec for about 6 weeks now. The website shows 'no service' (although the Friday is bookable). I rang up CS and messaged on Twitter. The response was the same - Network Rail are updating the timetable and you should keep checking. They could not even book me over the phone as they said they can only use the same method i would be using by booking online and it is not showing. Also mentioned something about Fridays being different when NR update timetable. All sounds a bit fishy to me and with Xmas approaching i want to get it booked soon so may just pick an alternative method which i dont want to do.

Seems very odd to be launching a winter sale when one of your five routes doesn’t seem to be running during the period in question and when there’s zero info about this on your website!

 

[zwk500]

Top and tail 73 with ETS cables split mid train, plus any suitable additionall motive power up front?

Or just no ETS until Carlisle and offer passengers the traditional Scottish method of blankets and whisky?

 

[AVK17]

Or just no ETS until Carlisle and offer passengers the traditional Scottish method of blankets and whisky?

The batteries on the Mk5s last for about 45-60 mins after which you lose door interlock and brake release. So, no.

 

[zwk500]

The batteries on the Mk5s last for about 45-60 mins after which you lose door interlock and brake release. So, no.

Next time I'll include the smiley emoji. Tongue was very firmly in cheek

 

[Bletchleyite]

The batteries on the Mk5s last for about 45-60 mins after which you lose door interlock and brake release. So, no.

Crikey. Is there anything about them that isn't flawed?

 

[AVK17]

Crikey. Is there anything about them that isn't flawed?

It's not a flaw it's just how they work. They are designed effectively as a cabless multiple unit, not a traditional coach.

 

[The Planner]

Top and tail 73 with ETS cables split mid train, plus any suitable additionall motive power up front?

How is that fitting at Euston?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not a flaw it's just how they work. They are designed effectively as a cabless multiple unit, not a traditional coach.

I know, and I consider that a flaw.

 

[zwk500]

How is that fitting at Euston?

Change to a 92 at Carlisle or Crewe?

 

[The Planner]

Change to a 92 at Carlisle or Crewe?

Dropping off the 73 at the rear as well as the front plus whatever is dragging it then plonking a 92 on the front? That is going to be a sizeable stop.

 

[zwk500]

Dropping off the 73 at the rear as well as the front plus whatever is dragging it then plonking a 92 on the front? That is going to be a sizeable stop.

A sizeable stop that is already in the plan at Carstairs. Also, dropping the rear 73 takes 5 minutes, as it doesn't need to be moved out of the way only detached. The front loco swap will normally be complete within 10 minutes but will probably get given 20 minutes in the TPRs. At Carlisle there's enough space for locos to be moved about in the middle of the night without too much fuss.

Alternative is to run it as two separate portions to Carlisle then combine there, if the platforms aren't too curved to prevent the Couplers aligning. But we've gone into speculative territory so I'll say sorry to the mods and leave it.

 

[ruaival]

If the network was to expand to 6 Scottish destinations rather than the present 5 there would be an immediate requirement for additional Lounge, Seated and Accessible Sleeping vehicles. Taking it a step further if a third service was part of that package, the opportunity would present to order some sleepers with 4 berth compartments - 7 or maybe 8 compartments in coach providing a budget 'couchette style' option for each destination.

A third service could be Inverness direct via Mossend taking out the time consuming diversion via Edinburgh - traction change at Stirling? Bigger trains north of class 92 territory could raise ETH capability questions.

An order for further Caley Sleeper stock would present the opportunity to also provide new stock for the Penzance service.

I will conclude this post by noting in the current climate it is very unlikely government either Westminster or Holyrood would have much appetite for investment in new stock!

"Inverness direct via Mossend" reminds me of boarding a Fort William + Inverness Sleeper at Crewe in 1982. Only the Fort William portion had any seats (just 4 compartments with a Guards van) and a few non-berth passengers in there needed to change to the front portion before the detachment somewhere like Mossend to allow the Fort William section to head in to Glasgow Queen Street.

The connecting door was however closed in advance of the detachment and so (good old days before central locking) having got as far as the locked connecting door at a red signal they had to open the door climb out and open the next door and climb back in to achieve the correct destination with just a vestibule floor seat.

Meanwhile when we got to Queen Street it was a jump off the second the train stopped to acquire fresh seats in freshly aired carriages that attached to the rear of the Sleeper for the early morning West Highland line departure.

 

[Bald Rick]

Worth remembering that every sleeper passenger is subsidised by Scottish Government to the tune of nearly £100 (and that includes the seated passengers). Running more trains means more subsidy.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Worth remembering that every sleeper passenger is subsidised by Scottish Government to the tune of nearly £100 (and that includes the seated passengers). Running more trains means more subsidy.

Yes, it probably means more overall subsidy, but the subsidy per passenger might reduce a bit. There’s a statistic for every point of view

 

[popeter45]

Worth remembering that every sleeper passenger is subsidised by Scottish Government to the tune of nearly £100 (and that includes the seated passengers). Running more trains means more subsidy.

if the issue is demand but upping supply would cost more in situations like this wouldnt a potential solution be upping capacity on same supply via conversion of a few carriages to couchettes?