Caledonian Sleeper

[Journeyman]

Well that’s debatable, and a whole other discussion.

No, it's a fact.

 

[Bald Rick]

No, it's a fact.

It’s fact that Network Rail buys its traction electricity from EDF on the basis of nuclear generation. The debatable part is where the electricity actually comes from, and what would happen to emissions from power generation if it wasn’t for the rail demand at any given time.

But not for this thread

 

[paul1609]

It’s fact that Network Rail buys its traction electricity from EDF on the basis of nuclear generation. The debatable part is where the electricity actually comes from, and what would happen to emissions from power generation if it wasn’t for the rail demand at any given time.

But not for this thread

Does EDF even claim that all Network Rails electricity is sourced from Nuclear anymore? It doesnt for most large business accounts.

 

[Bald Rick]

Does EDF even claim that all Network Rails electricity is sourced from Nuclear anymore? It doesnt for most large business accounts.

It did when the 10 year deal was done in 2013.

 

[peteb]

Rail traction power in the UK is 100% nuclear, and has been for some time. As an industrial customer, Network Rail buys its power from a single source in bulk, having signed a ten year contract with EDF in 2013. The power is deemed carbon neutral.

Nice and clean then, oh unless something goes wrong with the reactor, but that's never happened has it?

 

[TimboM]

Well I was being a little provocative. And as has been pointed out, it’s not a straightforward comparison.

However.... the sleeper is one of the few services in the country which has, largely, end to end flows (or nearly so) with few passengers joining at intermediate stations. To make things easy, we can assume that the electrically hauled part of the journey of the Highland sleeper has no carbon emissions, and therefore only consider the trip from Edinburgh to Inverness. What follows is very (very) back of fag packet.

I don’t have access to the figures, but I’d be surprised if the Inverness portion of the Highlander carries more than 80-90 people a night, on average. The 2 locos hauling it to/from Edinburgh will burn something like 400gals (educated guess) of diesel between them to do so, including that spent getting to and from the train and sat on it providing hotel power. That’s about 1500kg of diesel.

An A320neo flying Luton to Inverness with (typically) 170 passengers on board will burn about 3000kg of Jet A1, including that used for taxi-ing either end. Twice as much fuel, but for twice as many passengers, so (very) roughly the same.

The two EDs on the Inverness portion typically use around 1,500 litres of fuel between them or approx. 330 gallons.

Isn't there also some issue with the type of gasses jet liners emit and where (i.e. at altitude) causing comparatively more damage?

Rail traction power in the UK is 100% nuclear, and has been for some time. As an industrial customer, Network Rail buys its power from a single source in bulk, having signed a ten year contract with EDF in 2013. The power is deemed carbon neutral.

Each Class 92 requires its own dedicated nuclear power station, allegedly...

 

[cakefiend]

It did when the 10 year deal was done in 2013.

Got a source for that? EDF run more than just nuclear power stations.

 

[paul1609]

It did when the 10 year deal was done in 2013.

I run the electricity accounts for the local heritage railway according to our "large business" bill EDFs electricity mix (last year) was 72.07% nuclear and the average CO2 emission is 87g/kWh (UK average mix is 208g). The sleeper also is responsible for 0.005g/kWh of nuclear waste.
Do the Class 92s have meters fitted?

 

[JamesT]

Got a source for that? EDF run more than just nuclear power stations.

https://www.networkrailmediacentre....ail-electrification-programme-in-a-generation

EDF Energy will ensure 100% of the electricity it supplies to Network Rail will be matched by low carbon energy generated from its eight nuclear power stations.

 

[paul1609]

https://www.networkrailmediacentre....ail-electrification-programme-in-a-generation

Thats a bit out of date though 7 years ago EDF were going to build 4 new nuclear power stations to power Britains Rail Electrification. To date only one of them Hinkley Point C has planning approval. Perhaps any further rail electrification schemes need to factor in financial support for new nuclear power plants in the cost benefit analysis?

 

[theironroad]

https://www.networkrailmediacentre....ail-electrification-programme-in-a-generation

Thanks for link.

I wonder how their plans held up as some of the places listed haven't been electrified.

"By 2020, 54% of the network will be electrified with electric trains accounting for 75% of all rail traffic."

 

[paul1609]

Thanks for link.

I wonder how their plans held up as some of the places listed haven't been electrified.

"By 2020, 54% of the network will be electrified with electric trains accounting for 75% of all rail traffic."

Does 2013 predate the IET? If not some services that are now partially electrified eg London to Cornwall might have been assumed to have remain wholly diesel at this point.

 

[Bald Rick]

The two EDs on the Inverness portion typically use around 1,500 litres of fuel between them or approx. 330 gallons.

Educated guess not far off then! I added in a bit to allow for delays / cold weather

Isn't there also some issue with the type of gasses jet liners emit and where (i.e. at altitude) causing comparatively more damage?

There is, although it is not fully understood. for example some of the emissions at high altitude are likely to reduce global warming gases, so there may be some offset.

UK average mix is 208g

174g for the last 12 months

 

[JamesT]

Does 2013 predate the IET? If not some services that are now partially electrified eg London to Cornwall might have been assumed to have remain wholly diesel at this point.

They weren't in service by then, but approval for IEP was given in 2011. They even announced the extension from Cardiff to Swansea in 2012. 2013 was probably around the high point of expectations for electrification progress, before the reality of the GWML had hit.

 

[paul1609]

174g for the last 12 months

I'm only going off the EDF bill!

 

[theironroad]

Does 2013 predate the IET? If not some services that are now partially electrified eg London to Cornwall might have been assumed to have remain wholly diesel at this point.

Certainly London to Cardiff is done, maybe swansea???

Not sure how far the 802s get before having switch from electric to diesel on the cornwall route, ?

Certainly no further work on MML or the 'electric spine' between Southampton docks and west midlands so no progress there in switching.

 

[Mordac]

So presumably when there's insufficient renewable or nuclear electricity to meet all the demands that claims that they run on carbon free electricity the trains will be cancelled? Or is the sleeper running off moonlight pv? When I just randomly checked 59% of the uks electricity was being provided by ccgts mostly on gas imported from the middle East....

Only about half of UK gas demand is imported, and most of that is from Norway and the Netherlands, not the Middle East.

 

[Domh245]

Interestingly enough, the press release mentions that edf will "supply around 3.2TWh of electricity a year" however the 2018/19 traction energy usage was 4.05TWh for passenger and freight (source) so it's already past what the agreement was for. The ORR release also notes that there is a decrease in the co2e emissions as a result of more renewables in the electricity mix, but it is unclear if this is solely for energy above 3.2TWh, or if they choose to neglect the edf deal and just take it on average grid emissions

Don't forget there's a difference between a big business, and a business that's getting through over a million kWh per day when it comes to negotiations with suppliers!

 

[CW2]

I seem to recall that as part of the last round of price negotiations, NR agreed to loosen its requirements ofr maximum / minimum voltage feed, to give the supplier more latitude. Financially this seemed like a good idea - until the class 92s working the Caledonain Sleeper started packing up in the middle of the night due to excessive volts. [Ah, back on topic again!]

 

[John Bishop]

All services cancelled on 4th/5th October due strike action.

 

[ashkeba]

An A320neo flying Luton to Inverness with (typically) 170 passengers on board will burn about 3000kg of Jet A1, including that used for taxi-ing either end. Twice as much fuel, but for twice as many passengers, so (very) roughly the same.

If so sure that it compares well on fuel, why pick a journey 40 miles shorter? (London to Luton 30 miles, airport to Inverness 10 miles)

 

[route101]

Unless you have an aversion to flying I'd have thought Easyjet Gatwick to Edinburgh/ Glasgow would be a no brainer.

I live near Glasgow and prefer the train. With plane its taxi or 2 buses to Glasgow airport , then a train at the London end. Cheap flight ends up quite expensive.

 

[paul1609]

If so sure that it compares well on fuel, why pick a journey 40 miles shorter? (London to Luton 30 miles, airport to Inverness 10 miles)

London (City) to Inverness Airport is 448 miles, The shortest rail route from London to Inverness is from Kings Cross via the Seattle & Carlisle Line at 566 miles the sleeper route via the WCML and Edinburgh is well over 600 miles, 40 miles is neither here nor there in an air v rail comparison.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Sep 2020 ==

I live near Glasgow and prefer the train. With plane its taxi or 2 buses to Glasgow airport , then a train at the London end. Cheap flight ends up quite expensive.

the original posters journey was from Horsham (6 miles from Gatwick Airport) to Blair Athol and the sleeper was too expensive for him hence my comment.

 

[Bald Rick]

If so sure that it compares well on fuel, why pick a journey 40 miles shorter? (London to Luton 30 miles, airport to Inverness 10 miles)

Because you can’t fly from Euston to Central Inverness. I thought that was obvious!

Besides what I was comparing was rather shorter for the rail journey, being Edinburgh - Inverness...

 

[Mag_seven]

Can I ask all posters to keep to the topic of the thread which is the Caledonian Sleeper.

If anyone wants to discuss anything else such as Network Rail Power Supply then they should be discussed in a new thread in the appropriate forum section.

Thanks

 

[alangla]

All services cancelled on 4th/5th October due strike action.

Turkeys/Christmas...

 

[theironroad]

Turkeys/Christmas...

No, Christmas is on 25 December and Dear Leader Boris has promised it's not cancelled.

 

[IanM]

.....The shortest rail route from London to Inverness is from Kings Cross via the Seattle & Carlisle Line

That still looks like a very long way round to me.

 

[35B]

That still looks like a very long way round to me.

Pretty direct, bearing in mind how the country is tilted and there's a through route via Motherwell and Cumbernauld. But it's only a mile or so shorter than going from Euston by the same route - the real mileage is added by going via Edinburgh.

 

[IanM]

Pretty direct, bearing in mind how the country is tilted and there's a through route via Motherwell and Cumbernauld. But it's only a mile or so shorter than going from Euston by the same route - the real mileage is added by going via Edinburgh.

via the Seattle & Carlisle Line?