Caledonian Sleeper

[Journeyman]

It'll be a Pyrrhic victory when the Sleeper gets axed.

 

[Roger B]

It'll be a Pyrrhic victory when the Sleeper gets axed.

And possibly the first of many, if as a 'nationalised' railway, its owners (the government) decide increasingly scarce resources are better spent elsewhere because of industrial strife. Unfortunately there are more than a few precedents over the past few decades.

 

[theironroad]

It'll be a Pyrrhic victory when the Sleeper gets axed.

And possibly the first of many, if as a 'nationalised' railway, its owners (the government) decide increasingly scarce resources are better spent elsewhere because of industrial strife. Unfortunately there are more than a few precedents over the past few decades.

Highly unlikely.

The Cally sleeper has more lives than the average cat and is seen as a dear pet not to be messed with.

 

[alangla]

Highly unlikely.

The Cally sleeper has more lives than the average cat and is seen as a dear pet not to be messed with.

I was going to say turkeys voting for Christmas but unfortunately you may be right.

Perennially sick cats do eventually get put to sleep though.

 

[Journeyman]

I was going to say turkeys voting for Christmas but unfortunately you may be right.

Perennially sick cats do eventually get put to sleep though.

Yup. It relies on a lot of goodwill (and a lot of money) from lots of stakeholders, and their patience could very easily wear thin if a prolonged industrial dispute develops.

 

[Mag_seven]

A reminder that this thread is for the discussion of the Caledonian Sleeper.

I've moved a number of posts that were discussing WCML daytime service stopping patterns to a new thread which can be found here

 

[6Z09]

Yup. It relies on a lot of goodwill (and a lot of money) from lots of stakeholders, and their patience could very easily wear thin if a prolonged industrial dispute develops.

Could it perhaps be the case that issues from the last dispute, that assurances were given on, have not been dealt with as promised by management?

 

[Journeyman]

Could it perhaps be the case that issues from the last dispute, that assurances were given on, have not been dealt with as promised by management?

Possibly, but strike action? The downsides are potentially enormous, and the RMT have form for throwing their toys out the pram.

 

[Fishplate84]

Possibly, but strike action? The downsides are potentially enormous, and the RMT have form for throwing their toys out the pram.

At the current time with precious little visitor traffic, a downturn in business traffic, EMAs in place so the Government taking all the risk and a hugely subsidised service and Government coffers being stretched wafer thin trying to meet everyones needs and keep the economy alive and people safe I can't help but think that both Scottish Government and Serco will be indifferent to the RMT getting angsty as they'd all be saving a fortune by not having a very expensive and largely empty train services running up and down to London each night.
You have to wonder how fatigued staff really are getting on an empty train. There must be a load of empty cabins on each service to get their head down if they want to.

It would be a very easy decision for Scottish Government to basically mothball the whole service for at least six months and see how the world looks like in March 2021, especially if the RMT are going to be an ongoing headache they could well do without.

 

[theironroad]

At the current time with precious little visitor traffic, a downturn in business traffic, EMAs in place so the Government taking all the risk and a hugely subsidised service and Government coffers being stretched wafer thin trying to meet everyones needs and keep the economy alive and people safe I can't help but think that both Scottish Government and Serco will be indifferent to the RMT getting angsty as they'd all be saving a fortune by not having a very expensive and largely empty train services running up and down to London each night.
You have to wonder how fatigued staff really are getting on an empty train. There must be a load of empty cabins on each service to get their head down if they want to.

It would be a very easy decision for Scottish Government to basically mothball the whole service for at least six months and see how the world looks like in March 2021, especially if the RMT are going to be an ongoing headache they could well do without.

Over the last couple of months with the lockdown easing and people wanting a staycation break, every time I've tried to book a sleeper it's been sold out.

 

[Fincra5]

I got the Sleeper back from Inverness and its was pretty full tbh...

 

[Bald Rick]

Given that revenue risk is now with Transport Scotland, this dispute is effectively with them, not Serco. RMT must know that. Which suggests RMT are trying to make a point with TS. Which also suggests that rumblings at Scotrail will be not far away. I hope not.

 

[alangla]

Given that revenue risk is now with Transport Scotland, this dispute is effectively with them, not Serco. RMT must know that. Which suggests RMT are trying to make a point with TS. Which also suggests that rumblings at Scotrail will be not far away. I hope not.

Erm... https://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/scotrail-staff-hold-strike-ballot-over-no-pay-rise-2981398

(link is a Scotsman article on the RMT holding a strike ballot at Scotrail)

 

[Bald Rick]

Erm... https://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/scotrail-staff-hold-strike-ballot-over-no-pay-rise-2981398

(link is a Scotsman article on the RMT holding a strike ballot at Scotrail)

Ha! I didn’t know that. I don’t know whether that makes me look clever or stupid. Almost certainly the latter.

 

[theironroad]

Both disputes would arise regardless of who is controlling the strings, though taking the Scotsman article at face value suggests that ScotRail may have been told not to agree future pay deals while ERMA is in place which might suggest TS is guiding the strings.

I don't know how the rest area policy works on the sleeper and whether there are more staff on board as less sleepers are running or if maybe previously they shared a cabin for rest purposes which is not now considered a covid secure practice. Anyone know ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Sep 2020 ==

Ha! I didn’t know that. I don’t know whether that makes me look clever or stupid. Almost certainly the latter.

Well with your new found clairvoyance you could wrap up loads of threads by telling us all what the future for the railways,/service cuts/jobs/new lines etc is .

You won't be held liable ....

 

[6Z09]

Possibly, but strike action? The downsides are potentially enormous, and the RMT have form for throwing their toys out the pram.

Staff have been balloted, so it's the wish of staff to take action, nobody is being pressured by the Union.

 

[adrock1976]

The longest turn we had was the Fort William run, book on at 1900 and book of at 1030 then 6hrs in a hotel before turning around and doing another monster shift back down to London. If it we’re running east coast main line it would add a couple hours so they could be quoting that

Was that actually legal?

According to the European Working Time Directive, there must be a minimum of 11 hours between shifts.

 

[JamesT]

Was that actually legal?

According to the European Working Time Directive, there must be a minimum of 11 hours between shifts.

Maybe the staff have opted out of the WTD? Alternatively, https://www.gov.uk/rest-breaks-work/compensatory-rest lists various circumstances where you might not get the usual breaks but can have additional breaks at other times instead. This includes:

they work in the rail industry on board trains or their job is linked to making sure trains run on time

 

[The Planner]

I have heard chat that the Sleeper is getting increased bookings as you can isolate more in a room than a plane or open train. Can see the logic, no idea if figures can back it up.

 

[Carlisle]

I have heard chat that the Sleeper is getting increased bookings as you can isolate more in a room than a plane or open train. Can see the logic, no idea if figures can back it up.

You may be right, but I’d be surprised if there’s many passengers with that level of concern, currently using public transport anyway, let alone for optional long distance travel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You may be right, but I’d be surprised if there’s many passengers with that level of concern, currently using public transport anyway, let alone for optional long distance travel.

Probably more that you don't have to wear a mask.

 

[Carlisle]

Probably more that you don't have to wear a mask.

May well be, i didn’t think of that .

 

[47271]

This is the version of the background to the current dispute that's come to me at third hand. My information isn't as reliable as usual because I'm not getting the usual supply of gossip from regulars because they're travelling less than normal. But as I understand it increased traffic over the summer has brought it to a head.

The internal fitout of the mk5s is clueless from the point of view of staff welfare, especially the loss of the pantries with an attendant's seat found on the mk3s. There's one inadequate 'staff room' where social distancing is impossible, and the pantries have been replaced with stand up workstations. At the start of Covid this led to the use of passenger cabins as makeshift staff rest areas, which was fine so long as there was spare capacity. But now the train is busy and they want to sell them...

If this is all correct then it's difficult not to have sympathy with the crews, RMT stirring or no RMT stirring.

I might be getting the story wrong though.

 

[BRX]

You may be right, but I’d be surprised if there’s many passengers with that level of concern, currently using public transport anyway, let alone for optional long distance travel.

Doesn't seem surprising to me at all. Lots of people have concerns. I used the sleeper pretty much for this reason a few weeks ago. Visiting family for the first time since last Christmas, including some elderly, I wanted to minimise the risk of bringing anything with me as much as possible. The sleeper is by far the most minimal contact way to travel from London to the Highlands.

 

[nuneatonmark]

This certainly doesn’t fill me with confidence for my trip

Doesn't seem surprising to me at all. Lots of people have concerns. I used the sleeper pretty much for this reason a few weeks ago. Visiting family for the first time since last Christmas, including some elderly, I wanted to minimise the risk of bringing anything with me as much as possible. The sleeper is by far the most minimal contact way to travel from London to the Highlands.

We used it for exactly the same reason a few weeks ago.

 

[Carlisle]

The sleeper is by far the most minimal contact way to travel from London to the Highlands.

Assuming you don’t drive or have access to a car, then yes that’s true

 

[island]

Was that actually legal?

According to the European Working Time Directive, there must be a minimum of 11 hours between shifts.

There’s a carve-out for railway staff I believe.

 

[InOban]

Assuming you don’t drive or have access to a car, then yes that’s true

Except that if you drive you will have to, and certainly should, stop several times for fuel, toilets etc, during which you might well meet a number of untraceable people. On the train you will only meet one or two known persons.

 

[Carlisle]

Except that if you drive you will have to, and certainly should, stop several times for fuel, toilets etc, during which you might well meet a number of untraceable people. On the train you will only meet one or two known persons.

True, but if you aren’t of sufficient stature for an entourage to guarantee an uninhibited walk between your bio secure personal transport & the train’s door, the risks at both ends of the journey probably outweigh a visit to a petrol station

 

[InOban]

I would have thought that in the evening there would be no difficulty in maintaining 2m distancing at any station used by CS