Steve Harris
Member
Two ??
Am I missing a trick here ??
I thought Lowlander + Highlander +Night Riviera = Three.
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Caledonian Sleeper
- Thread starter Essexman
- Start date
Am I missing a trick here ??
I thought Lowlander + Highlander +Night Riviera = Three.
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Steddenm
Established Member
I think he means two operators. Caledonian Sleeper and GWR.
Steve Harris
Member
Peter Sarf
Established Member
If there were to be another area of operation I would think it would be to link the South West with the North East and/or Scotland. That is somewhere not already covered by sleepers, probably would not use up scarce track capacity and would re-instate a service that had a reason to exist in the past. But sadly the economics of it probably just do not stack up as there is a reason why the old service ceased.
Maybe snapping up business on a a few peak days per week with stock that has marginal residual value might work. Anything less frequent would result in warm storage and no revenue.
Maybe snapping up business on a a few peak days per week with stock that has marginal residual value might work. Anything less frequent would result in warm storage and no revenue.
xc170
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- 9 Feb 2008
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- 815
It think was fairly obvious what I meant.
I've never understood how it's possible to get a kick out of being pedantic.
Steve Harris
Member
No I don't know what you meant, as the post wasn't very well written.
If it was obvious, I would not of replied.
I can have a guess at what you meant, but as you haven't clarified your point.... I don't know if I have guessed correctly or not.
IF I was being pedantic I would have said there was 6 sleeper services !! (Lowlander =2, Highlander =3, Night Riviera =1)
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xotGD
Established Member
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Plus six in the opposite direction makes twelve.
FrodshamJnct
Established Member
Would HAVE said.
Steve Harris
Member
Thank you and now corrected.
Steve Harris
Member
Indeed. But thats pendant overload. lol
xc170
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Okay, possibly service wasn't the right word to use, but as its only you that seems to have an issue with the wording then maybe the problem wasn't necessarily with my post.......
I've requested my original post be deleted.
Steve Harris
Member
How do you know it's only me that has an issue with your post ?
Just because I'm the only member to reply, doesn't mean I'm the only person who didn't understand your post. Other members may have chosen not to respond, due to the fact that someone (me) had already asked for clarification.
Perhaps your a politician? As they seem to have a problem of saying one thing but meaning the complete opposite and never answering a straight question with a straight answer.
I don't know why you want the post deleted, afterall, you could of just said sorry I typed service instead of operator. Would of saved a lot of off topic posts and bothering a Moderator to delete it.
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Steve Harris
Member
Oops... That's the problem with predictive text and not proof reading my post.
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Well said lets get back on topic this is the
Caledonian Sleeper Thread
Where all things relating to the day to day or even night to day running, operational functions, failures and pros & cons of the said service(s) can be discussed and debated for the benefit of those interested in the current service(s).
For all other speculative ideas this forum does have a specific section for this.
see here :
https://www.railforums.co.uk/forums/speculative-ideas.172/
Struner
Member
Anyway - you're not very good at proofreading, as in ment or afterall
This was meant for @Steve Harris of course.
This was meant for @Steve Harris of course.
Bassman
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- 14 Dec 2018
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- 79
Wondering what's the uptake in sleeper usage at the moment as we are in the low season? Are the trains running at good levels of use when the tourist numbers are not so high?
Clansman
Established Member
Two sleeper coaches on the Aberdeen currently, which with the Mk5s operating now, is the lowest ever number of berths the Aberdeen portion has had to contend with. And they still don't sell out!
When did it go down to two? It was three a fortnight ago when I was on it
Clansman
Established Member
About 2 weeks ago.
With the decrease in capacity you'd think 3 sleepers for the Aberdeen would at least be justifiable based on the capacity of the 2 Mk3s it was seeing in their later days, but 2 Mk5s is either a sad indictment of what the Aberdeen sleeper has become, or a huge boost to the Fort William portion's success. Sadly, it is almost certainly the latter, if I had to pick out've either of them.
47271
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I don't know about the Aberdeen, but from what I hear the Inverness is loading okay.
Just wait though until the Flexipass prices shoot up in January - I'm hearing £195 per single journey for Club. £165 for Classic isn't so bad, but there's a growing rumble against the Club price. It was inevitable of course - this is going to be the moment of truth for the regulars.
Their business model will be well and truly tested in 2020.
Clansman
Established Member
If the scrapping of bargain berths didn't kill sleeper patronage, the staff quota reduction, the increase in accomodation quality and prices along with it, certainly has.
2020 will be a big year for Serco. If patronage remains the same, I really can't see a future where the sleeper is a) viable as a standalone franchise, and b) not part of ScotRail. Many staff from CS and ScotRail feel the same.
Most staff I have spoken to believe that the new model for both the Sleeper and ScotRail IC services for that matter, is unsustainable and will one way or another crumble spectacularly. With each passing day I can't say that I disagree with them so long as things stand as they currently are.
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MrEd
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- 13 Jan 2019
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Used the Inverness portion northbound on Tuesday 5th November (arriving Wednesday November 6th). The sleeping cars were very nearly full, with just the last two standard class berths in Coach P spare. I don’t think the seated coach was that busy, but the lounge car was extremely busy both in the evening and in the morning, so much so that I couldn’t get a seat in the evening (and had room service instead). Of course, the sleepers have much less capacity now, so are easier to fill. I think that the loadings were about 30 first class cabins occupied and 22 standard (of course I can’t be sure whether any given cabin had one or two occupants). But these seemed to be relatively healthy loadings for a Tuesday night in November, and I must say that I was quite taken aback by how busy the lounge car was for a winter midweek night. I remember midweek winter nights in First Group days when, even on the Inverness portion, you’d still find a few spare seats in the lounge car leaving Euston and the occupancy was about 18 first class cabins and 15 or so standard.
Sadly from the point of view of CS, all those passengers on the train I was on ended up (myself included) getting a free journey, as arrival into Inverness was nearly 100 minutes late (an all too frequent occurrence of late, it seems). A good number, too, were irate because of the delay, poor communication from staff and residual faults with the Mk5s. I’m no expert in these matters, but CS need to be careful or they’ll lose any prospect of repeat custom...
cf111
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Hardly scientific but I purchased a Sleeper ticket from Inverness to Euston this evening for next Friday and expected to either get nothing or to be really gouged for it, but I have a club room for £205 which I believe to be the lowest price point, and I had plenty of berths to choose from.
This is still the most the sleeper has ever cost me but I was expecting to have to pay for one of the double rooms or pay for a seat. I'm looking forward to the journey but I'd still rather a day train or a flight would have worked for me as they usually do.
MrEd
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I feel exactly the same way. What worries me is the frequency with which passengers paying the high fares are eligible for delay repay due to extremely late arrivals, thereby destroying any prospect of increased revenue from increased patronage and higher fares. Surely the unreliability caused by the mess with the Mk5s (and various other issues) this year has blown a huge hole in Serco’s finances, and with no possibility of cross-subsidy from other, more profitable services, I don’t see how Serco can carry on for much longer...
Also, I worry that the poor punctuality and (on many occasions) curtailment of catering/on-board services due to staff shortages will put off any repeat custom. When I was on the northbound Inverness portion on 5-6 November, I was quite taken aback by the number of extremely irate customers (who suggested, on the basis of conversations that I overheard, that they would be unlikely to use the service again). The 100-minute late arrival was perhaps not Serco’s fault, but the continuing faults with the stock and the unhelpful attitude of the frankly graceless London crew (who were far from the sleeper’s usual high standards of on-board service and gave perfunctory, and in some cases inaccurate or misleading, information regarding ETA in Inverness and what to do about onward connections), combined with other issues like two of the dinner choices and half the breakfast choices being unavailable, I find slightly harder to excuse (especially in the light of the very high standards of accommodation and hospitality now expected by users of the service). I personally enjoyed the journey despite the hiccups, but I got a feeling that I was in a minority. I have started to come to the conclusion that CS management have not been taking the service’s shortcomings seriously enough.
I don’t know what would happen if Serco did lose the franchise, but I can’t think I’m alone in thinking that CS management really do need to wake up, smell the coffee and pull a finger out...
Clansman
Established Member
If Serco lost the franchise it still wouldn't change much other than the financial situation. Many people I have spoken to both staff and passengers alike feel that there is a general trend of 'run before you can walk' with the service. In other words, the basics have been ignored, which is making passengers less inclined to use the service. By basics, I'm talking about trivial matters like the interior designs of the Mk5s, the working conditions, the culture in which staff onboard are now expected to act in, etc etc. Their words, not mine - though coincidently our views aren't too disimilar. It goes deeper than financials, it goes right to the heart of what the service used to be about, and how decripit this has since become. Put it this way, the old sleeper was still prone to the same attrocious delays and mishaps, yet the same passengers kept coming back one way or another. The cause to the change in habit as you mention perhaps goes beyond simply punctuality.
The rebranding of the sleeper towards a more tourist based market has backfired spectacularly. If not backfired, then grossly understimating of the tourism market in relation to its patronage. If anything Serco are just as much victims, as that vision was peddled first and formost by Transport Scotland and the Scottish Government, without any real thought for their then existing market of general commuters - of which they have since alienated all but completely. I won't blame them for trying to put emphasis on that market, but the way in which they have done so makes the whole rebranding seem like an experiment gone wrong. They have the chance in the next few years to cut the franchise, get back to the drawing board, and really think about where they want it to go. Because the way it is now on all levels, simply isn't working. Perhaps I'm old school in looking at it through the perspective of culture of the old and new service (despite being in my early 20s), however I can't be that wrong given this is becoming the concensus among those who regularly used the service both as passengers and staff. If it is going to work in the way that they hoped, it will take much much longer to establish a) the culture and b) the market they want to operate in.
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MrEd
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You are so right in everything that you say. I certainly feel that the business plan has utterly failed in that it has alienated the staff and the regular users. This year has in fact seen the loss of a number of long-standing staff members, and I have a feeling that their dissatisfaction with what the service has become has played a part in their decision to resign (the incident in March aside). A number of the new staff that I’ve observed (a couple of whom were on duty that night I travelled) have no ’railway’ in their veins, and seem to me to be poorly trained and entirely at sea in a ’railway’ environment. I see very few other ’regulars’ now, and it looks like the number of regulars is only going to go one way in the light of the fare increases. I can’t imagine it’s much fun for the long-standing staff, to find that their working environment has increasingly been transformed from a public service train which happened to have beds and a lounge car into a (if I can be honest) slightly twee (and expensive) tourist attraction... a lot of the Scottish based crew that I’ve spoken to in particular are very unhappy about the brash, classless, touristy advertising and the cliched (to the point of being cringeworthy) decor and menus. The old train in Scotrail days, with its friendly staff, chatty regular travellers and warm, welcoming, intimate atmosphere in the lounge car was arguably much more emblematic of Scotland than this new train with its new marketing strategy ever could be (despite Transport Scotland’s claims to the contrary). I also wonder- do tourists actually want any of this tacky nonsense? A lot of tourists that I’ve spoken to in Scotland (and in many other countries) are after authentic experiences shared with ’real’ locals, not kitsch stereotypes.
I do feel that although it is busier than ever before, the lounge car has become somewhat soulless, both in the evenings and mornings; the decor contributes to this, but the loss of many of the regular travellers and of the mixture of travellers from all walks of life means that the good conversation and opportunities for socialising, for which the sleeper lounge car was famed in the past, have all but ended. What makes me particularly sad is that the sleeper service used to connect families and communities; now it just seems more like a theme park exhibit. No wonder, given the concomitant poor reliability, a lot of the staff are at their wits’ end.
MrEd
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I don’t think it’s necessarily to do with the Fort William portion’s success except perhaps in high summer (the Fort William portion does not load particularly well midweek in winter either, though it is busy at weekends, at least Friday night northbound, all year round). Unfortunately, I put the failure of the Aberdeen portion to load well down to two reasons: 1) the changing fortunes of Aberdeen’s oil industry, 2) the fact that the Aberdeen portion (like the Glasgow portion of the Lowlander) is not a major tourist draw, so the obsessively tourist-orientated marketing strategy cannot help it in the same way that it can help boost the services to Inverness, Fort William and Edinburgh. The fact that ordinary commuters/non-tourist travellers have been all but alienated is pretty much the death knell for the Aberdeen portion.
Scotrail84
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You're wrong. The Aberdeen consists of 5 coaches, A, Lounge, B, C and D.
Clansman
Established Member
Since the Mk5s were introduced, it was 5 coaches, however for the past 1-2 weeks, the Aberdeen portion has been 4 coaches, so you're wrong in that respect. I've seen it and travelled on it. Currently, it's 4.
You've honestly hit the nail on the head. I'm glad I'm not the only one who has found this to be the case on these forums. You echo my thoughts 100%. The atmosphere of the old lounge car in the ScotRail days was second to none, and absolute credit to what Scotland and ScotRail was all about - and I speak solely of Scottish culture in that regard. Now it is nothing but a steward being told to act the big lick tour guide watching over you until the very second you finish your macaroni cheese, because the lounge car is so dead they have nothing else to do. I remember the ScotRail days where the guard and all the staff would be in the lounge having the craic with many a regular user until the wee hours in the morning. Staff, regular commuters, businessmen, politicians, and tourists, under one roof in the same carriage all sharing the night together with a dram and a good old laugh. Now it's just soulless. A symbol of nothing but a vision for the service which does not suit it one bid. It's destroyed what it used to be, and as you say, that culture was more emblematic of Scotland than what anybody involved with running the current service is trying to do now. It'll never come as close to that. The sad thing is it was only roughly when ScotRail guards stopped working the service in ~2016/17 when the last spec of soul left that service.
To be fair it is well established that the oil buzz from the sleeper isn't what many think it is. Few oil workers used the service, if at all, given a fair amount of the airlifts to the rigs happen prior to the sleeper's arrival in Aberdeen. Indeed I hear the helicopters at 6am every weekday mornings, so to say that part of the Aberdeen portion's decline is due to oil worker patronage is stretching it I'd say. You're spot on about your second point though. Aberdeen isn't a tourist draw in respect to the rest of the cities, and most of the usage for the service used to come from commuters on bargain berths and staff travelers under ScotRail negotiated quotas. Since then, bargain berths have been discontinued and quotas were reduced significantly, and prices for the average passenger in a berth has increased to the extent where its usage is limited to tourists or those on the older age spectrum with higher incomes.
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