Caledonian Sleeper

[Statto]

1M11 is at Carstairs, 1C11 is currently loading in Edinburgh, 1M11 should depart Carstairs 00.11, no chance of that as it takes around 30 minutes from Edinburgh to Carstairs

 

[Sleepy]

" Correct, that's the rules. In this instance, CS have laid on alternative transport and so no obligation to provide a hotel room exists. Albeit a coach is undoubtedly a poor substitute, they've done all they had to."

For a premium business, this is simply a bad attitude.

GWR have certainly offered hotel then day train when Night Riv. was subbed by HST ex Paddington last year - simpler when 1 TOC involved of course !

 

[Sleepy]

Still can't quite believe the " If you booked at a station / 3rd party we don't have contact info. to inform you of problems" Why the hell not ? - it has always been part of booking process to provide phone no. when booking sleeper berths !! It's 2019 not 1979.......

 

[Flying Snail]

So, you believe that businesses should provide customers with something they haven't paid for, purely because the customer decides that's what they want?

Sorry but this is utter Bulls***. A CS booking is for transport AND a night's accommodation. For seat customers then road transport is an equivalent albeit one many will not be happy with. For berth customers who have paid for a bed then an alternative room with a bed as well as transport to their destination is the appropriate replacement.

Many customers, particularly those who live near the originating station may not require a hotel room but others, particularly the large-walletted foreign tourists CS seem so keen on catering to will not have any viable alternative other than finding a last-minute hotel room in an unfamiliar location at inflated price themselves.

A night on a seat in a coach is not acceptable for those who have bought a bed, to suggest that expecting a hotel room is looking for something that hasn't been paid for is just incorrect.

As it happens I have never paid CS or Scotrail sleeper for travel but have bought overnight accommodation from them many times. As in this scenario I would only have bought a berth supplement (which has increased in price by 100% under CS) from them and be using a separate product for the travel element, their action would be to offer a refund for the missing accommodation and deny any further responsibility for me effectively being stranded without a bed for the night. Simply unacceptable.

 

[_toommm_]

Still can't quite believe the " If you booked at a station / 3rd party we don't have contact info. to inform you of problems" Why the hell not ? - it has always been part of booking process to provide phone no. when booking sleeper berths !! It's 2019 not 1979.......

I believe that's down to the GDPR. It's the same way that if you book a ticket on TheTrainLine, LNER for example can't text or email you if there's a problem with your train.

Personally, I wouldn't class passing the phone number is an unnecessary sharing of data, but I guess that could be debatable really...

 

[paddington]

Are they still being diverted onto the ECML as per previous Sundays?

No - last week was the last one of this latest batch.

I'm interested in the new route it was supposed to take this morning. Is the normal route straight along the Trent Valley main line? It was supposed to go on the Birmingham line avoiding Wolverhampton then via Bescot and Ascot to Stechford. In the end it did go along the direct route and also avoided Northampton meaning the 114L departing Carstairs was only 25L at Euston, so looks like no compo!

Were there engineering works in the way meaning it was scheduled to go via this route, or is it for knowledge retention or just to take up extra time given the earlier departure on Sunday (though I see there is 30 mins slack around Lockerbie)? Given that the Trent Valley lines were available an hour later, why isn't it just timetabled to wait somewhere for longer and then travel via the straighter routes? On sleeper services I have tried, the more twists and turns, and accelerating and braking around junctions, the harder it is for me to stay asleep.

 

[TimboM]

I'm interested in the new route it was supposed to take this morning. Is the normal route straight along the Trent Valley main line? It was supposed to go on the Birmingham line avoiding Wolverhampton then via Bescot and Ascot to Stechford. In the end it did go along the direct route and also avoided Northampton meaning the 114L departing Carstairs was only 25L at Euston, so looks like no compo!

Were there engineering works in the way meaning it was scheduled to go via this route, or is it for knowledge retention or just to take up extra time given the earlier departure on Sunday (though I see there is 30 mins slack around Lockerbie)? Given that the Trent Valley lines were available an hour later, why isn't it just timetabled to wait somewhere for longer and then travel via the straighter routes? On sleeper services I have tried, the more twists and turns, and accelerating and braking around junctions, the harder it is for me to stay asleep.

It is normally/regularly routed via Birmingham and Northampton on Sunday nights to allow for engineering work. If these possessions aren't being taken (or the train is late) they will be bypassed as per last night - probably saved about 25-30 mins all in. The 30 min slack around Lockerbie is in case of Single Line Working (again for engineering) - which rarely happens.

It's a signaller's call on the day/night whether it's feasible to go off the booked route - the plan/scheduled route is what should happen and allows for what is expected (e.g. possessions in certain places at certain times). The railway isn't as simple as just being able to stop 1M11 somewhere for an 30 mins then run it a different route (and wouldn't that involve more braking/acceleration in the early hours...?)

Rest assured the drivers are aware folk are sleeping on board and ease off around the twisty bits and junctions where they can - even when running late.

1M11 was 20L vs the Public Timetable at Euston, so yes, no Delay Repay.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You know they have.

Clearly not enough.

It is common practice to lop testing time if something is late - I always push back against it but often the customer pressures for it...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I believe that's down to the GDPR. It's the same way that if you book a ticket on TheTrainLine, LNER for example can't text or email you if there's a problem with your train.

That's complete rubbish, and if anyone quotes it as a reason they are using it as an excuse. You can transfer non-sensitive personal data if it is in the interest of the customer (legitimate interest), this does not require consent, and a booking agent transferring to a transport operator on which they have placed a booking is a classic example of the legitimate interest ground for transferring data.

They simply don't have a system in place to do it.

 

[TimboM]

Clearly not enough.

It is common practice to lop testing time if something is late - I always push back against it but often the customer pressures for it...

c.£25m losses in the year and rising by the thousands every day the new stock isn't introduced into service; the "customer" are politicians who have their reputations to think about... there's pressure and then there's pressure! I wonder how well you (or anyone else) would've been able to stand up to it in practice?

The reality is there's a triple-whammy: late stock because of build issues... less time for testing as it's (very) late... losses mounting up on old stock as having to run longer... all equals new stock with issues coming into service when not really ready.

But the alternative is to make a long delay even longer, and pile big losses on already huge losses, and the "customer" to lose even more (political) face. It's pretty much an impossible situation and a snowball effect once there's problems with the stock build/delivery.

 

[BRX]

From a politician's point of view... Would anyone really notice if the introduction was delayed further? It's a bit of a niche service (unlike say the HST intro) so delays aren't really going to prompt negative press coverage in the same way as a botched introduction will (and has) - having got everyone's attention by announcing it.

 

[_toommm_]

That's complete rubbish, and if anyone quotes it as a reason they are using it as an excuse. You can transfer non-sensitive personal data if it is in the interest of the customer (legitimate interest), this does not require consent, and a booking agent transferring to a transport operator on which they have placed a booking is a classic example of the legitimate interest ground for transferring data.

They simply don't have a system in place to do it.

Absolutely - I don't see it being a problem as they're not using the phone number for marketing, or anything other than service updates. However' companies have been very careful since the GDPR came in, and it is thrown about a lot when there aren't many of the general population who fully understand it, and all of its intents and implications.

 

[ainsworth74]

There was some discussion early about CS meeting it's contractual obligations in regards to service disruption and how they had legally discharged their duty and owed the passenger nothing more. I'm not so sure that's true and I'm not convinced the Small Claims Court would toss a claim out with not even a second glance. The Consumer Rights Act 2015 applies to rail journeys and does include the following term at Section 50:

50 Information about the trader or service to be binding

(1)Every contract to supply a service is to be treated as including as a term of the contract anything that is said or written to the consumer, by or on behalf of the trader, about the trader or the service, if—

(a)it is taken into account by the consumer when deciding to enter into the contract, or​

(b)it is taken into account by the consumer when making any decision about the service after entering into the contract.

(2)Anything taken into account by the consumer as mentioned in subsection (1)(a) or (b) is subject to—

(a)anything that qualified it and was said or written to the consumer by the trader on the same occasion, and​

(b)any change to it that has been expressly agreed between the consumer and the trader (before entering into the contract or later).

I've had a poke around on their website and it certainly is clear that they're entertaining to provide a quality experience and, in the case of berth passengers, overnight accommodation to hotel standards (particularly for Club Room where the website states on multiple occasions: "A hotel experience"). It seems reasonable that a consumer would make the inference, therefore, that they can expect both a premium product and to be provided with the sort of service that a hotel would provide. I had a glance through the Guest Charter (though it's in dire need of an update as it appears to date from September 2016 and still refers to the Conditions of Carriage, sharing with strangers, only the old berths and fails to mention the Consumer Rights Act which has applied to the railway since October 2016) and figure three on page twenty says regarding the non-availability of booked accommodation:

When you arrive at the station, if it is not possible for you to travel due to a fault of the railway and you have booked and have a valid reservation, we will give you a full reimbursement and offer you alternative transport and accommodation (where this applies).

Note that it isn't alternative transport or accommodation it's alternative transport and accommodation.

So, in a circumstance where CS have failed to run the advertised service and have only provided alternative transport (be it a coach or travel the next day early morning trains), I would strongly suggest that a claim could be brought against CS under the Consumer Rights Act. Now whether or not a court would agree that CS had actually failed in someway to fulfil their duties and therefore award some sort of compensation is a question to which I do not feel qualified to provide a definitive answer.

But, in any event, I don't think it's a simple as saying "they met the NRCoT therefore they've discharged their duties totally and no further claim could be made or entertained".

 

[Bletchleyite]

Absolutely - I don't see it being a problem as they're not using the phone number for marketing, or anything other than service updates. However' companies have been very careful since the GDPR came in, and it is thrown about a lot when there aren't many of the general population who fully understand it, and all of its intents and implications.

It does seem that it is used as an excuse, along the lines of "security" for anything passenger-unfriendly at an airport.

 

[jagardner1984]

Isn’t this sort of thing exactly the reason why there should be one national ticketing company/system, into which operators input ticket products, thus enabling far simpler contact of passengers, far simpler reallocation of tickets in times of disruption, and one system which the ticket machines, ticket offices and websites feed into ?

(See the absence of sleeper services from other operators websites, which routinely incorrectly advertise the “last” train as being the 1930 from Euston to Glasgow, and the difficulties the uninitiated have booking day travel on the seated coach).

Can anyone think of one positive benefit that a fragmented system has brought to the passenger ?

 

[Chrism20]

c.£25m losses in the year and rising by the thousands every day the new stock isn't introduced into service; the "customer" are politicians who have their reputations to think about... there's pressure and then there's pressure! I wonder how well you (or anyone else) would've been able to stand up to it in practice?

The reality is there's a triple-whammy: late stock because of build issues... less time for testing as it's (very) late... losses mounting up on old stock as having to run longer... all equals new stock with issues coming into service when not really ready.

But the alternative is to make a long delay even longer, and pile big losses on already huge losses, and the "customer" to lose even more (political) face. It's pretty much an impossible situation and a snowball effect once there's problems with the stock build/delivery.

I couldn’t give a toss about Serco/CS’s losses as a customer.

I pay them to provide a bed and get me from A to B.

That is the response you will get from any customer of the sleeper. And that will include timely boarding and departure. That’s what they advertise and that is what the consumer is entitled to expect more often than not.

This £25m garbage doesn’t wash with the consumer. Sercos losses and woes don’t matter one jot to them.

 

[hwl]

I couldn’t give a toss about Serco/CS’s losses as a customer.

I pay them to provide a bed and get me from A to B.

That is the response you will get from any customer of the sleeper. And that will include timely boarding and departure. That’s what they advertise and that is what the consumer is entitled to expect more often than not.

This £25m garbage doesn’t wash with the consumer. Sercos losses and woes don’t matter one jot to them.

I suspect that the impact of the consumer rights acts being more onerous than the existing C of C didn't feature in the TS or Serco thinking pre award (it seemed to take the rail industry by surprise in general) and will probably ultimately sink the premium concept they are currently marketing.

Just one case or a super complaint from Which etc. would crystallise the nightmare for TS / Serco.

Serco will have agreed the either travel or accommodation position for when things go wrong, the problem is that the legal background has shifted in between so the question is whether TS or Serco picks up the additional cost.

 

[Darandio]

One of the (many) reasons I don't travel on the sleeper is that I don't think the contract I would be entering into by buying a ticket, defined by the NRCOT, adequately protects my interests. But, if I did buy a ticket and this is what happened, I would have no comeback against CS since they would have fulfilled their side of the contract I freely entered into.

This is the crux of the matter right here. Anyone buying a ticket to travel with accomodation on the Caledonian Sleeper enters into a very poor one sided contract that isn't in favour of the passenger in any way. This in itself isn't unusual of course, it's apparent in many industries.

The problem here is that Caledonian Sleeper doesn't advertise itself as a train service, it advertises itself as an overnight hotel with high class accomodation, catering and attentive service by staff, things you would associate with a similarly priced hotel. Yet when the turd hits the fan it's allowed to hide behind a poor set of terms and conditions that revert the Caledonian Sleeper back to a train service.

Analogies are crap on here and this is no better, but imagine rocking up at the Malmaison in London at 10pm and told there is no room for you and you cannot book anywhere else either. But they will provide you with a ticket to ride around London on a night bus until 6am. Like I said it's a crap analogy but arriving to travel on the Caledonian Sleeper after paying a premium and expecting to sleep in high class accomodation only to be offered a replacement bus as an alternative cannot feel much different.

I had planned to take the boy in September/October to try out the new stock but there is absolutely zero chance now, regardless of whether the service improves dramatically or not.

 

[70014IronDuke]

This is the crux of the matter right here. Anyone buying a ticket to travel with accomodation on the Caledonian Sleeper enters into a very poor one sided contract that isn't in favour of the passenger in any way. This in itself isn't unusual of course, it's apparent in many industries.

The problem here is that Caledonian Sleeper doesn't advertise itself as a train service, it advertises itself as an overnight hotel with high class accomodation, catering and attentive service by staff, things you would associate with a similarly priced hotel. Yet when the turd hits the fan it's allowed to hide behind a poor set of terms and conditions that revert the Caledonian Sleeper back to a train service.

Analogies are crap on here and this is no better, but imagine rocking up at the Malmaison in London at 10pm and told there is no room for you and you cannot book anywhere else either. But they will provide you with a ticket to ride around London on a night bus until 6am. Like I said it's a crap analogy but arriving to travel on the Caledonian Sleeper after paying a premium and expecting to sleep in high class accomodation only to be offered a replacement bus as an alternative cannot feel much different.

I had planned to take the boy in September/October to try out the new stock but there is absolutely zero chance now, regardless of whether the service improves dramatically or not.

I think it's a perfectly reasonable analogy.

This post gets my vote for post of the year on UK Rail Forums - and it has some excellent competition on this thread alone.

 

[Highlandspring]

Out of interest if I ran a business and wanted to source, say, one hundred decent quality hotel rooms for immediate occupation in London or Edinburgh at 23:00 on a Friday night how would I go about it? Are there agencies set up to resource stuff like this? How do airlines manage it?

 

[Chrism20]

Out of interest if I ran a business and wanted to source, say, one hundred decent quality hotel rooms for immediate occupation in London or Edinburgh at 23:00 on a Friday night how would I go about it? Are there agencies set up to resource stuff like this? How do airlines manage it?

Yes there are agencies that will happily source a corporate customer that number of rooms at relatively short notice. They would be scattered about all over the city and possibly out into nearby towns etc but it can be done.

The idea that Edinburgh hotels run at 100% occupancy 365 days of the year is fantasy. It would be a challenge to source that number but on most nights it’s doable.

Also would you be looking at as many rooms as that? Are there 100 rooms on the new trains plus some people would go home if living in Edinburgh/nearby.

 

[stepho]

Glasgow - Euston cancelled tonight....

 

[Highlandspring]

Yes there are agencies that will happily source a corporate customer that number of rooms at relatively short notice. They would be scattered about all over the city and possibly out into nearby towns etc but it can be done.

The idea that Edinburgh hotels run at 100% occupancy 365 days of the year is fantasy. It would be a challenge to source that number but on most nights it’s doable.

Also would you be looking at as many rooms as that? Are there 100 rooms on the new trains plus some people would go home if living in Edinburgh/nearby.

It was a genuine question aimed at broadening my knowledge - I’m not an apologist for CS. I’ve no idea how the hotel industry works or whether they would even take bookings at that time of night.

 

[nickswift99]

Glasgow - Euston cancelled tonight....

No ticket acceptance on the first train making it impossible to get to London before 1000. That's very poor.

 

[Iskra]

It was a genuine question aimed at broadening my knowledge - I’m not an apologist for CS. I’ve no idea how the hotel industry works or whether they would even take bookings at that time of night.

Of course they would, they want to make money. They would definitely do it for a corporate customer.

Hotels would normally only decline an available room on the night if they thought the room was going to be mis-used in some way.

 

[Chrism20]

It was a genuine question aimed at broadening my knowledge - I’m not an apologist for CS. I’ve no idea how the hotel industry works or whether they would even take bookings at that time of night.

Apologies it wasn’t meant to come across as abrupt as it did.

An account manager at the likes of Concur, CTM, Egencia etc would jump at a contract such as this from CS.

Hotels will happily fill any room they have remaining at whatever time of the day particularly to an account customer.

 

[kingqueen]

Referring back to Friday's problem with the down Fort Bill, does anyone know how the fitter(s) reached the train somewhere "south of Tulloch".

It was just outside the station, tbh, not near Corrour.
Sorry, that probably doesn't help much with your question.

 

[Flying Snail]

Yes there are agencies that will happily source a corporate customer that number of rooms at relatively short notice. They would be scattered about all over the city and possibly out into nearby towns etc but it can be done.

The idea that Edinburgh hotels run at 100% occupancy 365 days of the year is fantasy. It would be a challenge to source that number but on most nights it’s doable.

Also would you be looking at as many rooms as that? Are there 100 rooms on the new trains plus some people would go home if living in Edinburgh/nearby.

There are 52 rooms on each Mk5 half set, 4 accessible, 4 double suites, 24 club, 20 classic and 31 seats. Mk3 sets have 72 rooms and 31 seats.

You could remove 4 sleeper coaches from a full Mk3 set and only be down 8 rooms from a Mk5 rake.

On the hotel rooms issue, I doubt that finding enough hotels for those that would require them, bearing in mind some passengers would return home and others would cancel their trip or choose to use the alternative travel, would be a massive problem on most nights. Edinburgh festival would be an issue no doubt but I have had no issue getting reasonable rate hotel rooms in Glasgow during that period. Fort William and Inverness lines would probably be the worst, particularly in the summer season.

 

[kingqueen]

I believe that's down to the GDPR. It's the same way that if you book a ticket on TheTrainLine, LNER for example can't text or email you if there's a problem with your train.

Personally, I wouldn't class passing the phone number is an unnecessary sharing of data, but I guess that could be debatable really...

I wonder what the point is of the ticket seller collecting this personal data (phone number) given they don't pass it on. Personally I think that may be less GDPR compliant because they are collecting personal data they don't need or use.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem here is that Caledonian Sleeper doesn't advertise itself as a train service, it advertises itself as an overnight hotel with high class accomodation, catering and attentive service by staff, things you would associate with a similarly priced hotel. Yet when the turd hits the fan it's allowed to hide behind a poor set of terms and conditions that revert the Caledonian Sleeper back to a train service.

Yes, precisely. A bus is a (slightly poor but) valid replacement for a train service. But a sleeper is something special in terms of accommodation, so the replacement really should have to be equivalent, which is a night in a hotel and a day train or flight.

Thinking on, are those Megabus sleeper coaches still knocking around? They're not as nice as CS, being more couchette style, but would probably be a reasonable replacement - I slept better on one of those than I did on a train due to the orientation meaning the cycle of "blood to head, blood to feet" at every corner didn't happen. Maybe CS needs to agree with Stagey a long term hire on them?

I had planned to take the boy in September/October to try out the new stock but there is absolutely zero chance now, regardless of whether the service improves dramatically or not.

My nephew wants to go on one, I think it's going to have to be the Riviera now. Might be better for him anyway as he'll be able to play on the beach when we arrive.