Caledonian Sleeper

[Bletchleyite]

We knew it had broken down on Friday but had to guess as to whether it would be mended for tonight. They could have said it will be ok, it won’t be ok, or we hope it will be ok.

Given the importance and time-critical nature of business journeys (which is what most Sunday evening ones will be), it would actually have made sense for them to give a warning of possible cancellation and offer refunds to anyone wishing to take them and travel during the day on Sunday instead, which is near-certainly what I would have chosen to do. Those wishing to retain their booking and take the chance could have done so and accepted the alternatives offered (much as I think the lack of hotel accommodation is unacceptable).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I spent the night when they cancelled a train in the reception of Jurys Inn, Edinburgh, with about 100 other people if that counts.....

FWIW Sunday is probably the easiest night of the week for them to get hotel rooms. They tend to be very cheap, largely because it's the quietest night of the week - the holidaymakers have gone home but most business travellers not arrived yet.

 

[side effect]

At least I know know what the jury's inn is now.

Could they have put them on virgin trains earlier today or would getting there 7 hrs earlier would cause more harm than good.

 

[VT 390]

I agree that should be the bare minimum, but it isn't is it. They're doing all that the NRCOT obliges them to do. More, in fact, by giving everyone a full refund.
Maybe the rules need changing so that, for sleeper services, the option of a hotel room and transport the next morning (or vice versa and hotel at destination) is required, but the rules are what they are.
As I've said before, I'd love to see someone take them to court under the Consumer Rights Act and see what the court ruled was appropriate in all the circumstances. Short of that, though, I can't see anything changing.

I thought if the Highlander or Lowlander are Cancelled as there would be no services after these that day to get you to your destination they had to according to the NRCoT provide overnight accommodation if alternate transport is not arranged (which does not really seam possible for Fort William or Inverness because of the distance).

 

[Mathew S]

Who gives a stuff what the rules are? They are a minimum.

They are selling an allegedly premium product on which they are treating passengers worse than they would be treated were this a late evening cancellation of a budget airline flight.

OK, the airlines are required to do more by law, but if you offer a premium product you need to do more than a budget airline, don't you?

It is downright shoddy.

Erm, I give a stuff what the rules say, as I'm sure do CS, and as I'm sure would the courts if ever someone were to bring a case under the consumer rights act. One of the (many) reasons I don't travel on the sleeper is that I don't think the contract I would be entering into by buying a ticket, defined by the NRCOT, adequately protects my interests. But, if I did buy a ticket and this is what happened, I would have no comeback against CS since they would have fulfilled their side of the contract I freely entered into.

Regardless of what any of us think, the contractual rules which you enter into a customer when you buy a ticket are not a 'minimum', they are all that is required to be done in exchange for the price that you paid. You can't go along and say, "oh, well, you said you were a premium service, I think that my evening meal should be included in that price, so I'm not going to pay for it." You are entitled to what you paid for, no more, no less. In just the same way, your entitlements in the event of disruption are laid out in the contract and you are absolutely not entitled to anything more (especially when CS have already offered a full refund on the price you paid, in addition to fulfilling the contract).

I completely agree that it's not good enough, but I think anyone buying a ticket and expecting anything more than they're legally entitled to is either staggeringly naive, or just looking for trouble.

Would I like to see overnight accommodation required in these situations? Yes, of course. It should be written into the franchise agreements as a requirement, in my opinion. But that doesn't mean, if I were a customer, that I have any right to expect CS to provide it tonight.

 

[Essexman]

Given the stock will be in London one assumes that Glasgow southbound will be cancelled tomorrow.
So why not tell people now?

Tell us what the problem is with the half set that's at Wembley and if it's likely to run on Tuesday.

Tell us why you can't use some of the old stock. I know people have given reasons on here but most users won't read the forum.

I have meetings in Glasgow on Wednesday & Thursday and near Elgin on Friday. I certainly won't travel by coach. I could travel by day train but it's now too late to cancel the Flexipass booking. I can't do anything until CS tell us whether it will run.

Technical, infrastructure and staff issues will always occur on a railway. I accept that. However the inconvenience can be minimised by good communication. CS disappeared had no activity on Twitter from Saturday morning until 7pm tonight and didn't respond to questions before then.

I'm a regular business user of the sleeper but have lost confidence in the service, communication and that fares will remain justifiable. As it stands it's unlikely that I'll be buying another Flexipass. If I as a very pro rail person am saying this how many other users will be lost too?

 

[Mathew S]

We knew it had broken down on Friday but had to guess as to whether it would be mended for tonight. They could have said it will be ok, it won’t be ok, or we hope it will be ok.

My situation is I’m travelling Tuesday and needed to cancel Flexipass booking by midday today if I was to make other arrangements. If there was a doubt about Tuesday, which there may be now, then I’d have cancelled.

I do sympathise, but where do you draw the line? It's like with Northern and Hull Trains and all the others, once they know they're going to have to cancel a service, they can say that. Until then, it's daft because all you do is create needless anxiety and a whole load of rubbish press coverage.

I thought if the Highlander or Lowlander are Cancelled as there would be no services after these that day to get you to your destination they had to according to the NRCoT provide overnight accommodation if alternate transport is not arranged (which does not really seam possible for Fort William or Inverness because of the distance).

Correct, that's the rules. In this instance, CS have laid on alternative transport and so no obligation to provide a hotel room exists. Albeit a coach is undoubtedly a poor substitute, they've done all they had to.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Regardless of what any of us think, the contractual rules which you enter into a customer when you buy a ticket are not a 'minimum', they are all that is required to be done in exchange for the price that you paid.

I hope I never deal with a business led by you. Premium businesses work by anticipating the needs of their customers, this is called "good service". "Going over and above" is what they do. So, I maintain that as long as CS sell themselves as a premium service, they are out of order.

Do you think the Waldorf will be pouring through the contract before sorting out your issue to your satisfaction? I rather doubt it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Correct, that's the rules. In this instance, CS have laid on alternative transport and so no obligation to provide a hotel room exists. Albeit a coach is undoubtedly a poor substitute, they've done all they had to.

For a premium business, this is simply a bad attitude.

 

[Mathew S]

I hope I never deal with a business led by you. Premium businesses work by anticipating the needs of their customers, this is called "good service". "Going over and above" is what they do. So, I maintain that as long as CS sell themselves as a premium service, they are out of order.

Do you think the Waldorf will be pouring through the contract before sorting out your issue to your satisfaction? I rather doubt it.

You may think they are out of order, I may do too. Still doesn't make any difference to the contractual position.
I have to say, if I did run a business where I actually had to deal with customers (thankfully those days are long behind me) and a customer was trying it on the way you appear to be suggesting CS customers demand here, I would be politely, but firmly, declining their custom in future.

 

[Highlandspring]

Given the stock will be in London one assumes that Glasgow southbound will be cancelled tomorrow.
So why not tell people now?

Not necessarily; it may well run empty either overnight or during the day tomorrow to be in position for tomorrow evening’s service.

Tell us what the problem is with the half set that's at Wembley and if it's likely to run on Tuesday.

Do British Airways or Ryanair explain why a flight is cancelled beyond “technical problems”?

 

[TimboM]

Simply not acceptable to give no warning the service was in doubt, disappear of Twitter, then cancel at 7pm.

From what I understand the issue causing the cancellation occurred late in the day and passengers were informed very soon after the decision was made. The intention until that point was to run the full service. Not sure why CS don't explain this as the questions linking the cancellation to Saturday morning's problems are understandable.

 

[option]

Mk5s have been operating the Lowlander every night for almost 2 months. Yes they undoubtedly have some problems that need to be sorted, but they're far from completely hopeless and needing to be returned to CAF!!!

Income form passengers also only covers about a third of the cost of each train that runs (subsidy and Serco foot the bill for the rest) so a significant drop in passenger numbers doesn't have quite the impact it may appear.

The service cancelled today;
no passenger income (tickets & on-board purchases)

cost of replacement coach service
staff costs
track access costs (I assume last minute cancellations don't get refunded)

Are TS really going to pay a subsidy for a service that doesn't run?

So thats a massive cash loss, & it's not something that can be sold at a future point.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You may think they are out of order, I may do too. Still doesn't make any difference to the contractual position.
I have to say, if I did run a business where I actually had to deal with customers (thankfully those days are long behind me) and a customer was trying it on the way you appear to be suggesting CS customers demand here, I would be politely, but firmly, declining their custom in future.

Then we would be in agreement that I would not use your business, as it would be more obsessed with the precise wording of the contract than it would with good quality customer service as a premium operation.

At present, for that reason, I will not be using CS.

Again, if CS brand themselves as a budget operation (e.g. Thello) what they are doing would be OK. But a single room might be under £100, not double that.

Obsessing about the contract is all well and good for a B2B business. For B2C, the contract is of low importance - customer satisfaction is key.

(business to business/business to consumer, for those who haven't come across those terms before)

 

[Essexman]

CS haven't give any reason at all for the cancellation.
It's not even obvious on the website. No banner at the top to give this urgent information as there should be and used to be.

 

[Essexman]

From what I understand the issue causing the cancellation occurred late in the day and passengers were informed very soon after the decision was made. The intention until that point was to run the full service. Not sure why CS don't explain this as the questions linking the cancellation to Saturday morning's problems are understandable.

Is your understanding that it was related to last week's problem?

And do you have any idea if it will be resolved in time to run tomorrow (empty to Glasgow & back) or Tuesday?

Sorry to have to ask but CS aren't giving customers this information.

 

[mralexn]

Not necessarily; it may well run empty either overnight or during the day tomorrow to be in position for tomorrow evening’s service.

Do British Airways or Ryanair explain why a flight is cancelled beyond “technical problems”?

Well, I am sure we will find out tomorrow night at around 22:30 or something like that

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do British Airways or Ryanair explain why a flight is cancelled beyond “technical problems”?

easyJet certainly do. Airlines used to be awful at it (e.g. the standard "late arrival of the inbound aircraft" non-information) but some have got particularly good at it these days.

Where are the unusable coaches? Presumably there's going to be a mirror cancellation from Scotland tomorrow? If so, why isn't it being announced now?

It's an absolute mess.

 

[ScottDarg]

Looks as though the empty stock for tonights Lowlander from Edinburgh may have run into some troubles also. Seems to have come to a stand around Cambuslang?

 

[Mathew S]

Then we would be in agreement that I would not use your business, as it would be more obsessed with the precise wording of the contract than it would with good quality customer service as a premium operation.

At present, for that reason, I will not be using CS.

Again, if CS brand themselves as a budget operation (e.g. Thello) what they are doing would be OK. But a single room might be under £100, not double that.

Obsessing about the contract is all well and good for a B2B business. For B2C, the contract is of low importance - customer satisfaction is key.

(business to business/business to consumer, for those who haven't come across those terms before)

So, you believe that businesses should provide customers with something they haven't paid for, purely because the customer decides that's what they want?

You, I, or anyone else, can ask CS for a hotel room when this happens. CS can decide to say yes if they want to. My point, as I am confident you are well aware, is that they don't have to and that if they say no, as is their right under the contract you agreed with them, there's not a thing you can do about it.

Is it poor customer service? Yes. Is it poor PR? You bet it is. Is it inconsistent with the public image they have chosen to project? Absolutely. Have they done anything wrong? Not even remotely.

 

[TimboM]

Is your understanding that it was related to last week's problem?

And do you have any idea if it will be resolved in time to run tomorrow (empty to Glasgow & back) or Tuesday?

Sorry to have to ask but CS aren't giving customers this information.

No idea on either of those questions.

That said, if the issue can't be resolved to get the stock north for tomorrow night's southbound you'd hope it'd be sorted for Tues night northbound.

 

[Highlandspring]

easyJet certainly do. Airlines used to be awful at it (e.g. the standard "late arrival of the inbound aircraft" non-information) but some have got particularly good at it these days.

Do they actually announce at a level of detail as being something like “a damaged second stage turbine blade on number one engine which is suspected to have been caused by flying through a hail storm earlier” these days? I haven’t been on a delayed flight for a few years and have never had a flight cancelled but last time I was late with Flybe from Southampton it was annouced as “a problem with the plane”.

Where are the unusable coaches? Presumably there's going to be a mirror cancellation from Scotland tomorrow? If so, why isn't it being announced now?

You’re making two assumptions here based on absolutely no information - 1) that the problem is with the coaches and 2) that whatever the problem is won’t be overcome in time to position the rolling stock correctly for tomorrow’s journey.

 

[Clayton]

So, you believe that businesses should provide customers with something they haven't paid for, purely because the customer decides that's what they want?

You, I, or anyone else, can ask CS for a hotel room when this happens. CS can decide to say yes if they want to. My point, as I am confident you are well aware, is that they don't have to and that if they say no, as is their right under the contract you agreed with them, there's not a thing you can do about it.

Is it poor customer service? Yes. Is it poor PR? You bet it is. Is it inconsistent with the public image they have chosen to project? Absolutely. Have they done anything wrong? Not even remotely.

Yes of course you are right. But the point people are making is that they to start going over and above if they want to restore some customer credibility

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it poor customer service? Yes. Is it poor PR? You bet it is. Is it inconsistent with the public image they have chosen to project? Absolutely. Have they done anything wrong? Not even remotely.

Legally? No, they aren't in the wrong. But as a premium operation it absolutely stinks and deserves to lose all its custom.

 

[6Z09]

ECS Polmadie to Edinburgh having problems?
Sitting in X Country Glasgow to Edinburgh, train ahead having problems!
5C11 likely culprit!

 

[Kendalian]

Aberdeen lounge out of action northbound tonight and as already advised, appears to be problems getting the stock to Edinburgh for the southbound Lowlander.

CS...if anything can go wrong it will

 

[VT 390]

Correct, that's the rules. In this instance, CS have laid on alternative transport and so no obligation to provide a hotel room exists. Albeit a coach is undoubtedly a poor substitute, they've done all they had to.

So do they provide a coach all the way to Fort William if the Highlander is cancelled?

 

[Mathew S]

So do they provide a coach all the way to Fort William if the Highlander is cancelled?

I mean, they could do a coach to Glasgow and point people to the 0823 from Queen Street I suppose (provided ticket acceptance was agreed with Scotrail).

 

[TimboM]

I mean, they could do a coach to Glasgow and point people to the 0823 from Queen Street I suppose (provided ticket acceptance was agreed with Scotrail).

Typically given the relative loadings, when the FTW has been cancelled passengers have been accommodated on the Lowlander, then road transport or day train from Glasgow (usually) in the morning.

 

[housebythesea]

So, you believe that businesses should provide customers with something they haven't paid for, purely because the customer decides that's what they want?

You, I, or anyone else, can ask CS for a hotel room when this happens. CS can decide to say yes if they want to. My point, as I am confident you are well aware, is that they don't have to and that if they say no, as is their right under the contract you agreed with them, there's not a thing you can do about it.

Is it poor customer service? Yes. Is it poor PR? You bet it is. Is it inconsistent with the public image they have chosen to project? Absolutely. Have they done anything wrong? Not even remotely.

They may not have done anything unlawful, although I would like to see them try to defend their position in court if, god forbid, some harm came to a passenger as a result of being effectively marooned at KX with no accommodation.

I can't travel by coach, so I won't use the sleeper until the service improves dramatically. As a woman travelling alone I do not intend to find myself in the position of having to find hotel accommodation in London, late at night, or having to hang around Euston until God knows what time.

None of the options are acceptable, which is fine. Their loss, I won't use them.