Caledonian Sleeper

[Facing Back]

Sacrilege! Ice or water, nothing else.

Not ice. Just water!

 

[najaB]

Not ice. Just water!

I sometimes put one or maybe two ice cubes, no more than that.

 

[Facing Back]

I sometimes put one or maybe two ice cubes, no more than that.

You may get a single raised eyebrow from the steward, but I'll forgive you

 

[fgwrich]

No, GBRf have a contract with Serco Caledonian Sleepers Ltd. That contract will remain unaffected by the switch of ownership (and change of name) of that company from Serco to the Scottish Government.




You’ll get some dinner, but no whiskeys. Plenty of Whisky available though ; I recommend the Bunnahabhain.

I hope they've bought back the Whisky Menu! When I travelled on it last summer, I found it had been replaced with fancy Gins instead, much to my disappointment!

(I've found and loved a few new tipples to add to my collection thanks to journeys on the Sleeper)

 

[Bald Rick]

I sometimes put one or maybe two ice cubes, no more than that.

Yes I prefer an ice cube.

You may get a single raised eyebrow from the steward, but I'll forgive you

I know some eyebrows may be raised, but an ice cube does have the benefit of transforming into liquid water

I hope they've bought back the Whisky Menu! When I travelled on it last summer, I found it had been replaced with fancy Gins instead, much to my disappointment!

(I've found and loved a few new tipples to add to my collection thanks to journeys on the Sleeper)

Interesting. I can’t conceive of a situation where the CS doesn’t serve whisky. They do serve gins as well though, perhaps the whisky is on the other side of the menu?

 

[Bill57p9]

The seats were the brake Coach AFAIK, so that wasn't possible. So I was told one night when a water leak in the Aberdeen seats caused a cancellation.

The MK2 seats were, and Mk5 seats still are the brake coach so are required.
Presumably only one though - at least in the mk2 days. The Mk5 TMCS might not like it though

 

[Peter Sarf]

The MK2 seats were, and Mk5 seats still are the brake coach so are required.
Presumably only one though - at least in the mk2 days. The Mk5 TMCS might not like it though

One of the Mk5 seated sleeper coaches (I think the non-bar coach that has a guards bit in it) *HAS* to be in each rake of upto 8 Mk5s. So two are required for the 16-coach London to/from Scotland part of the route. The Fort William portion has to have said coach added/removed at Edinburgh for the Edinburgh to/from FortWilliam portion that is because Aberdeen and Invrness use the other two for their portions.

 

[Siemens Trains]

Interesting. I can’t conceive of a situation where the CS doesn’t serve whisky.

Perhaps we'd see the alcohol policies commoned up if the sleeper becomes merged with ScotRail. There was a time when outlawing passengers taking a drink on Scotland's daytime railway was inconceivable too, but this has become the norm and reversal seems unlikely now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps we'd see the alcohol policies commoned up if the sleeper becomes merged with ScotRail. There was a time when outlawing passengers taking a drink on Scotland's daytime railway was inconceivable too, but this has become the norm and reversal seems unlikely now.

I would be surprised to see CS stopping serving alcohol; it makes them a packet and it doesn't have any kind of ASB problem. At worst they may ban it in the seated accommodation but not in the lounge car.

I'd not say banning consuming* alcohol on day trains was particularly inconceivable (much as I'd not ban it), most people don't drink alcohol on day trains and some shorter distance TOCs like Merseyrail had it banned for years.

* Banning taking it home with you in your bag would be a different matter, but that's only the case on specific trains mostly relating to football.

 

[185143]

I would be surprised to see CS stopping serving alcohol; it makes them a packet and it doesn't have any kind of ASB problem. At worst they may ban it in the seated accommodation but not in the lounge car.

I'd not say banning consuming* alcohol on day trains was particularly inconceivable (much as I'd not ban it), most people don't drink alcohol on day trains and some shorter distance TOCs like Merseyrail had it banned for years.

* Banning taking it home with you in your bag would be a different matter, but that's only the case on specific trains mostly relating to football.

They did exactly that until at least August 2021. The TM fully agreed with me it was stupid given there were the grand total of three of us in the carriage, and a significant purpose to the next carriage in the formation is to sit and drink alcohol!

 

[Bletchleyite]

They did exactly that until at least August 2021. The TM fully agreed with me it was stupid given there were the grand total of three of us in the carriage, and a significant purpose to the next carriage in the formation is to sit and drink alcohol!

The seated car is a difficult one, because it's open and people making noise while having mini parties and consuming alcohol could be an issue for those who might want to sleep. I can see the grounds for not allowing it there, or perhaps only allowing consumption of alcohol purchased from CS and ceasing sale around midnight, which is roughly when the lounge car often will cease serving.

 

[lachlan]

The seated car is a difficult one, because it's open and people making noise while having mini parties and consuming alcohol could be an issue for those who might want to sleep. I can see the grounds for not allowing it there, or perhaps only allowing consumption of alcohol purchased from CS and ceasing sale around midnight, which is roughly when the lounge car often will cease serving.

Are CS strict on noise in the sleeper coach? Last time I took it someone had nursery rhymes on repeat to their crying child for the first two or three hours of the journey. I may have complained if I hadn't had my noise cancelling headphones to drown it out.

Meanwhile a couple lads ordered drinks and I don't remember them being noisy at all.

 

[185143]

The seated car is a difficult one, because it's open and people making noise while having mini parties and consuming alcohol could be an issue for those who might want to sleep. I can see the grounds for not allowing it there, or perhaps only allowing consumption of alcohol purchased from CS and ceasing sale around midnight, which is roughly when the lounge car often will cease serving.

Is it hugely different to an aircraft cabin in that respect? You obviously can't take your own through security, but litre bottles of spirits are always for sale in Duty Free and I'm certainly not naive enough to think that no groups have ever cracked one open in-flight!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it hugely different to an aircraft cabin in that respect? You obviously can't take your own through security, but litre bottles of spirits are always for sale in Duty Free and I'm certainly not naive enough to think that no groups have ever cracked one open in-flight!

Cabin crews do intervene on people who do that if they see it. I'm sure it happens but it's not allowed.

 

[Mordac]

You are allowed to bring your own booze on an airplane, but you must ask the cabin crew to pour it for you.

 

[JModulo]

The MK2 seats were, and Mk5 seats still are the brake coach so are required.
Presumably only one though - at least in the mk2 days. The Mk5 TMCS might not like it though

Not so much the "brake" coach anymore so to speak though. Only needed for the TCMS.

 

[35B]

TUPE? Gosh - do tell! Are you saying that Serco can't offer roles to senior staff who used to work in their core business and have to transfer them to whoever is the new supplier?

The answer to that will depend on a mixture of law and contracts. But if a job role is “in scope” for transfer, there are constraints on how easily the employee and current employer can just move out of scope. From experience of both being subject to and sidestepping a transfer, and of being around consultation and negotiation, the detail will be buried in the facts of the issue and not necessarily clear cut.

Look at it another way. You are taking on a business, where some of the senior staff are a critical part of its operations. Are you going to be happy for them to just drop out of the business without replacement?

 

[trebor79]

TUPE? Gosh - do tell! Are you saying that Serco can't offer roles to senior staff who used to work in their core business and have to transfer them to whoever is the new supplier?

The answer to that will depend on a mixture of law and contracts. But if a job role is “in scope” for transfer, there are constraints on how easily the employee and current employer can just move out of scope. From experience of both being subject to and sidestepping a transfer, and of being around consultation and negotiation, the detail will be buried in the facts of the issue and not necessarily clear cut.

Look at it another way. You are taking on a business, where some of the senior staff are a critical part of its operations. Are you going to be happy for them to just drop out of the business without replacement?

This is also my understanding, having been involved on the periphery of a similar situation. There can be negotiation and horsetrading to come to an arrangement, but essentially, no Serco cannot just unilaterally poach staff out of the business that has been sold.

 

[Meerkat]

This is also my understanding, having been involved on the periphery of a similar situation. There can be negotiation and horsetrading to come to an arrangement, but essentially, no Serco cannot just unilaterally poach staff out of the business that has been sold.

Is this sort of thing covered in the rules that set up franchises? I would have thought it could be foreseen that you didn't want an owning group losing a franchise and gutting the staff to use in a continuing franchise elsewhere.

 

[trebor79]

Is this sort of thing covered in the rules that set up franchises? I would have thought it could be foreseen that you didn't want an owning group losing a franchise and gutting the staff to use in a continuing franchise elsewhere.

Well, it can get complicated. For example if the parent company "rents" senior management or key stuff to the franchise then those staff might not be counted as part of the transferred company. But equally, they might if the majority of their time is spent in the business being sold.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Is this sort of thing covered in the rules that set up franchises? I would have thought it could be foreseen that you didn't want an owning group losing a franchise and gutting the staff to use in a continuing franchise elsewhere.

Fundamentally, as a college lecturer used to tell us, you can’t contract out of the law

 

[martyn.connoll]

A fair bit of talk about TUPE here. Having a great deal of experience on Tupe, the rules are quite clear and quite messy at the same time from what I've seen about the arrangement for the Caledonian Sleeper it looks like this is ultimately this is a service provision change. On this occasion it's a hybrid insourcing and transfer of service.

Most affected will enter a period of consultation, either collective consultation or the business to elect an employee rep consultation if there is no TU/Group reps (unlikely to be the case in this instance TU will probably negotiate)

Employer will identify those affected in groups and each individual will usually be informed by a letter if they are in scope or out of scope, with a reason for either.

The old and proposed new employer are then required to provide a whole lot of information about the transfer, how it affects you, your rights, your terms (which will mostly remain the same), any important information etc.

A transfer date is agreed, and most of the workers will seamlessly transfer across to the new employer.

Those in scope IE work directly on the service that are transferring can always reject the transfer. In most cases that will be seen as a resignation though they might offer to redeploy you somewhere else in the business. Otherwise your resignation is effective on the date of transfer.

 

[Facing Back]

The answer to that will depend on a mixture of law and contracts. But if a job role is “in scope” for transfer, there are constraints on how easily the employee and current employer can just move out of scope. From experience of both being subject to and sidestepping a transfer, and of being around consultation and negotiation, the detail will be buried in the facts of the issue and not necessarily clear cut.

Look at it another way. You are taking on a business, where some of the senior staff are a critical part of its operations. Are you going to be happy for them to just drop out of the business without replacement?

Yes indeed. In the last few years I've been through this a couple of times as the transition and operations directors for the client and the incoming supplier respectively. The rules are designed mainly to protect the employee, not the employers as such and having spent many happy hours with the lawyers talking through the poaching of key staff I can say with quite some confidence, that there are a good few methods for the outgoing supplier to retain staff - or rotate them into other business areas, if the staff want this to happen. Ultimately the member of staff can simply refuse to transfer to the new supplier, effectively resigning or making themselves redundant, and may choose this if they have an offer from the incumbent to stay - and in some cases this was exactly the position we had.

No you are not happy, but there is not a big stick you can wave to make it go away. Normally it is through negotiation with both the outgoing supplier - who is not always highly motivated to help - and the staff members themselves.

And there are of course the other options mentioned here. Depending on the circumstances, roles can be declared "out", staff turn out to be on parent company employment contracts, sometimes mysteriously recently signed and a good half dozen other ways - all of which turn out to by legal, so long as the employee's interests are maintained and they are agreeing to whatever is going on.

There are generally extensive transition provisions that the outgoing provider has to meet in their contract which attempt to mitigate some of these behaviours - sometimes more successfully that others. I've ended up holding the baby as a supplier without key staff whilst reparations were paid to the client from the outgoing supplier - and strangely not passed on to us.

 

[PG]

All this discussion re Tupe shows us that the undoubted winners in the privatised rail industry are the lawyers

 

[Peter Sarf]

All this discussion re Tupe shows us that the undoubted winners in the privatised rail industry are the lawyers

Oh gosh yes. I seem to recall it was said that the original privatisation process was the biggest legal earner in history.

 

[najaB]

All this discussion re Tupe shows us that the undoubted winners in the privatised rail industry are the lawyers

Isn't that always the way though?

 

[Tezza1978]

Sacrilege! Ice or water, nothing else.

Oh I normally try a sip or two of it neat with ice but like to add a SMALL bit of ginger ale afterwards

Like I said Im no whisky expert lol...being more of a rum man (and I do like some of those neat with ice , particularly the darker more molasses tasting ones)

I will take the good advice on here though and try a few with just ice and water next time

 

[najaB]

Like I said Im no whisky expert lol...being more of a rum man (and I do like some of those neat with ice , particularly the darker more molasses tasting ones)

Ginger ale should be reserved for blended whiskies - after all you need something to disguise the taste!

 

[Facing Back]

Oh I normally try a sip or two of it neat with ice but like to add a SMALL bit of ginger ale afterwards

Like I said Im no whisky expert lol...being more of a rum man (and I do like some of those neat with ice , particularly the darker more molasses tasting ones)

I will take the good advice on here though and try a few with just ice and water next time

Good luck with the whisky, let us know how you get on studying it in its natural habitat .

I suspect you would get less grief setting fire to the train than putting ginger beer in single malt in Scotland.

btw a nice rum is brilliant too - I love it

 

[Stathern Jc]

Re TUPE.
Employees in posts listed for transfer can, of course, apply for any positions that become vacant with the original company.
Though it does depend on something matching your skills, being of interest, at an acceptable salary, and at a suitable location as relocation could be at your own expense. All that isn't really a very high probability, but you could be lucky.