Caledonian Sleeper

[Freightmaster]

The Sleeper is booked to run into King's Cross via the ECML during the Carstairs blockade.

You're correct about the ECML part, but they are running to/from Euston as normal, via Camden Road and Wembley yard.




MARK

 

[Christmas]

You're correct about the ECML part, but they are running to/from Euston as normal, via Camden Road and Wembley yard.




MARK

I'm afraid not, I booked it yesterday and my ticket clearly says King's Cross. I'm travelling from Fort William on a Thursday and returning on a Tuesday and both portions are running to and from King's Cross. The clerk confirmed this is for the duration of the works as he tried several other dates to see when the Euston service resumed.

 

[zero]

I'm afraid not, I booked it yesterday and my ticket clearly says King's Cross. I'm travelling from Fort William on a Thursday and returning on a Tuesday and both portions are running to and from King's Cross. The clerk confirmed this is for the duration of the works as he tried several other dates to see when the Euston service resumed.

What dates are you talking about then? I may be wrong but I can only see Kings Cross is to be used from 7-10 April.

 

[janb]

If anyone knows the answer to my shower token question that would be great as all my other ones have been answered

According to the Caledonian Sleeper website,

FAQ | Buying Tickets | Delivery | General Queries | Caledonian Sleeper

Our FAQ section is here to answer your questions, from buying tickets online, to general enquires about the trains, departure times and on-board facilities

www.sleeper.scot

Guests travelling in Caledonian Double and Club Rooms will be able to make use of an en suite shower and toilet. Guests in Classic and Seated accommodation can purchase a shower token for £5 from the on board team for use in the locations below.

 

[Freightmaster]

I'm afraid not, I booked it yesterday and my ticket clearly says King's Cross. I'm travelling from Fort William on a Thursday and returning on a Tuesday and both portions are running to and from King's Cross. The clerk confirmed this is for the duration of the works as he tried several other dates to see when the Euston service resumed.

For clarification, the weekday (i.e. Monday to Thursday night) sleepers are only diverted via the ECML for two weeks;
from March 20th they revert to running via the WCML, Beattock and Carstairs south curve.

However, as 'zero' points out above, Kings Cross *is* being used over the Easter weekend (southbound trains
on the Thursday, Friday and Sunday, plus northbounds on the Friday and Sunday and Monday)




MARK

 

[jagardner1984]

Can KGX take a full rake of 16 or is it short formed when it runs there ?

 

[zwk500]

Can KGX take a full rake of 16 or is it short formed when it runs there ?

Short formed, Longest KGX platform is c.300m. 2 x 20m locos and 11 x 23m carriages - there may be a platform that can take 2 + 12, not sure.

 

[jagardner1984]

Short formed, Longest KGX platform is c.300m. 2 x 20m locos and 11 x 23m carriages - there may be a platform that can take 2 + 12, not sure.

I note on the website for one of the dates, the Glasgow is showing as Sleeping Cars J-M, Club Car, Seated Car H, and then weirdly another a club car, but I’d assume a 6 car half set is what’s intended.

It’s also showing as a 0615 arrival - presumably they need it out the way before KGX gets really busy with slightly more urgency than at EUS.

 

[Blindtraveler]

In The dying days of the old stock when the mk2 seated coaches were often faulty they would, if the load factor was down simply not take the seats with them and upgrade people to a bed

 

[185143]

In The dying days of the old stock when the mk2 seated coaches were often faulty they would, if the load factor was down simply not take the seats with them and upgrade people to a bed

The seats were the brake Coach AFAIK, so that wasn't possible. So I was told one night when a water leak in the Aberdeen seats caused a cancellation.

 

[Christmas]

For clarification, the weekday (i.e. Monday to Thursday night) sleepers are only diverted via the ECML for two weeks;
from March 20th they revert to running via the WCML, Beattock and Carstairs south curve.

However, as 'zero' points out above, Kings Cross *is* being used over the Easter weekend (southbound trains
on the Thursday, Friday and Sunday, plus northbounds on the Friday and Sunday and Monday)




MARK

You're right, I'm travelling over the Easter weekend. However the clerk did say that the train was going to King's Cross on other dates as he went through the booking process on the ticket machine but I can't confirm what he was actually looking at.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Mar 2023 ==

I note on the website for one of the dates, the Glasgow is showing as Sleeping Cars J-M, Club Car, Seated Car H, and then weirdly another a club car, but I’d assume a 6 car half set is what’s intended.

It’s also showing as a 0615 arrival - presumably they need it out the way before KGX gets really busy with slightly more urgency than at EUS.

Mine is booked in at 08.15, platform 0R. I certainly don't expect to be kicked off two hours early!

 

[najaB]

The seats were the brake Coach AFAIK, so that wasn't possible. So I was told one night when a water leak in the Aberdeen seats caused a cancellation.

Indeed. On one occasion the heating was broken so we got upgraded to a berth, but the seated coach was still in the formation.

 

[Bald Rick]

Presumably GBRF have a contract with Serco.

No, GBRf have a contract with Serco Caledonian Sleepers Ltd. That contract will remain unaffected by the switch of ownership (and change of name) of that company from Serco to the Scottish Government.

Have got a classic berth and am travelling alone - I take it I should be able to get a bar stool seat in the lounge so I can grab some dinner/have a couple of whiskey's?

You’ll get some dinner, but no whiskeys. Plenty of Whisky available though ; I recommend the Bunnahabhain.

 

[najaB]

You’ll get some dinner, but no whiskeys. Plenty of Whisky available though

Bravo, sir. First-class pedantry.

 

[Bald Rick]

Bravo, sir. First-class pedantry.

One has standards when it comes to the Aqua Vitae.

 

[najaB]

One has standards when it comes to the Aqua Vitae.

Indeed. Very kind of our Irish and American cousins to make it easy to spot their pale imitation of the real thing.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Short formed, Longest KGX platform is c.300m. 2 x 20m locos and 11 x 23m carriages - there may be a platform that can take 2 + 12, not sure.

Promise I am not trying to be pedantic but 92s are over 70 foot long - wiki quotes 21.36m. I assume GBRf CS and Network Rail have figured that out.

 

[najaB]

Promise I am not trying to be pedantic but 92s are over 70 foot long - wiki quotes 21.36m. I assume GBRf CS and Network Rail have figured that out.

Do both locomotives have to be fully platformed though? Does Kings Cross have a significant gap between the end of the platform and the signal?

 

[zwk500]

Promise I am not trying to be pedantic but 92s are over 70 foot long - wiki quotes 21.36m. I assume GBRf CS and Network Rail have figured that out.

Some platforms at KGX are more than 300, some less. If they're using 0 I assume that's the longest, so yes they will have.

 

[Facing Back]

No, GBRf have a contract with Serco Caledonian Sleepers Ltd. That contract will remain unaffected by the switch of ownership (and change of name) of that company from Serco to the Scottish Government.




You’ll get some dinner, but no whiskeys. Plenty of Whisky available though ; I recommend the Bunnahabhain.

That’s interesting. I had assumed that the transfer would be more typical, with a new legal entity created, staff transferring through TUPE and contracts novated across as required/possible. I understand that is how it happened with Southeastern and it’s how it’s generally what has happened with the non-rail transfers I’ve seen. Is that not the case here and it will a change of owner of the existing TOC?

 

[JModulo]

I'm afraid not, I booked it yesterday and my ticket clearly says King's Cross. I'm travelling from Fort William on a Thursday and returning on a Tuesday and both portions are running to and from King's Cross. The clerk confirmed this is for the duration of the works as he tried several other dates to see when the Euston service resumed.

I also booked it yesterday, for April 7th, and my ticket is Euston. I queried this and apparently Kings Cross is not the plan anymore.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Promise I am not trying to be pedantic but 92s are over 70 foot long - wiki quotes 21.36m. I assume GBRf CS and Network Rail have figured that out.

On the other hand the Mk5s are 22.2m in length, not 23m so a recalculation will bring a new answer.

 

[Bald Rick]

That’s interesting. I had assumed that the transfer would be more typical, with a new legal entity created, staff transferring through TUPE and contracts novated across as required/possible. I understand that is how it happened with Southeastern and it’s how it’s generally what has happened with the non-rail transfers I’ve seen. Is that not the case here and it will a change of owner of the existing TOC?

I’m not sure of the details of how it will work, but needless to say the contract with GBRf will be unaff3cted.

 

[jagardner1984]

Presumably this one is slightly more complex as historically the OLR operations have been in geographically different places, so the preservation of seperate local controls makes total sense in a way that doesn’t here.

The crossover between the bits that are in ScotGov control and GB Railways will be interesting to see.

 

[35B]

The behind the scenes job duplication needn't have occurred but not only that, at the time of the split, staff who worked on the Sleeper suddenly found themselves stuck there, unable to apply for job opportunities within ScotRail that previously they could have.

I hear rumours that Serco intend to keep the top few layers on management and redeploy them rather than transferring them through TUPE, rather than just the director level, so it might end up being a defacto joint operation.

There's a little thing called TUPE that gets involved when businesses transfer. As well as protecting employees in a transfer, it also works to protect the businesses as it's based on the job roles. That may, depending on how the Scottish Government play things, affect whether Serco can actually do that.

Presumably GBRF have a contract with Serco.
Will that be transferrable, which seems sensible? And, after the transfer, will that be on current terms and binding to both parties?

I don't know anything about this.
But wonder if, for example, GBRF needed to look for a review of contract value to cover unforeseen developments whether the Scottish Government could have them bumped off similarly to Serco?

There was always a break clause in the franchise, and so the contract would have been structured to handle a change like this.

That’s interesting. I had assumed that the transfer would be more typical, with a new legal entity created, staff transferring through TUPE and contracts novated across as required/possible. I understand that is how it happened with Southeastern and it’s how it’s generally what has happened with the non-rail transfers I’ve seen. Is that not the case here and it will a change of owner of the existing TOC?

You're thinking of a transfer of people between companies. In that situation, contracts between suppliers and TOC would be handled by novating them to the new TOC; leaving the company unchanged in all but ownership is what happened with the transition to LNER and saves a lot of complications at handover.

 

[Facing Back]

There's a little thing called TUPE that gets involved when businesses transfer. As well as protecting employees in a transfer, it also works to protect the businesses as it's based on the job roles. That may, depending on how the Scottish Government play things, affect whether Serco can actually do that.

TUPE? Gosh - do tell! Are you saying that Serco can't offer roles to senior staff who used to work in their core business and have to transfer them to whoever is the new supplier?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Mar 2023 ==

You're thinking of a transfer of people between companies. In that situation, contracts between suppliers and TOC would be handled by novating them to the new TOC; leaving the company unchanged in all but ownership is what happened with the transition to LNER and saves a lot of complications at handover.

This was my question. Is it a transfer of ownership of an existing company, or is it a transfer of staff, services and contracts to a new company. SE was the latter, I don't know about LNER off the top of my head.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Mar 2023 ==

There was always a break clause in the franchise, and so the contract would have been structured to handle a change like this.

Agreed, a contract of this length will generally have a break clause. And can also be terminated for a number of other reasons. All termination options will have extensive provisions for continuity of service.

I'm not questioning that the locomotive providers will carry on doing it - they will - my question was academic and about the process to be followed - there are options and precedents. In any of the cases the staff will carry on with their current T&Cs and pensions and the service will be able to continue as it is on day 1.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Mar 2023 ==

I’m not sure of the details of how it will work, but needless to say the contract with GBRf will be unaff3cted.

Fair enough and yes needless to say that GBRf will continue to pull the trains - or however it is properly described

 

[Tezza1978]

You’ll get some dinner, but no whiskeys. Plenty of Whisky available though ; I recommend the Bunnahabhain.

I was always a bit unsure of the spelling variations vis a vis whisky vs whiskey!

Thanks for the tip mate - I will give that one a try, probably with some ginger ale to add! I'm not a whisky expert (more a rum man tbh) but do like a few from time to time and have had a few excellent Scottish ones in the past!

 

[Facing Back]

I was always a bit unsure of the spelling variations vis a vis whisky vs whiskey!

Thanks for the tip mate - I will give that one a try, probably with some ginger ale to add! I'm not a whisky expert (more a rum man tbh) but do like a few from time to time and have had a few excellent Scottish ones in the past!

if you want to add ginger ale to it then I would suggest a decent single malt might damage the tasting experience - as being punched in the mouth often offends!

 

[alistairlees]

I was always a bit unsure of the spelling variations vis a vis whisky vs whiskey!

Thanks for the tip mate - I will give that one a try, probably with some ginger ale to add! I'm not a whisky expert (more a rum man tbh) but do like a few from time to time and have had a few excellent Scottish ones in the past!

Do not add, or ask to add, ginger ale! Whisky can be taken with water, or neat.

 

[najaB]

Thanks for the tip mate - I will give that one a try, probably with some ginger ale to add!

Sacrilege! Ice or water, nothing else.