Caledonian Sleeper discussion

[Far north 37]

Someone spied 87002 outside the TMD the other day too (with 032 IIRC).

It's still showing "X" (exam/repair) on TOPS and has done for almost a month now, and last worked on 3rd July I believe.

You'd expect they'd want (need!) as many locos as possible available for the weekend with the extra train and ECS moves. The 2x 90s back in the fray will no doubt help.

yes 87002 was outside willesden tmd on saturday coupled up to 92032 and 09007 alongside a cs 92

 

[Mag_seven]

yes 87002 was outside willesden tmd on saturday coupled up to 92032 and 09007 alongside a cs 92

I saw 87002 today also outside - Difficult to know if it was outside has having maintenance completed or just to make space for a class 378 inside!

 

[TimboM]

yes 87002 was outside willesden tmd on saturday coupled up to 92032 and 09007 alongside a cs 92

Sorry, should've credited you with the sighting... was trying to recall who it was who'd seen it!

I saw 87002 today also outside - Difficult to know if it was outside has having maintenance completed or just to make space for a class 378 inside!

Still "X" on TOPS. I reckon it's just been kicked out to make space! I know the statuses on TOPS aren't always reliable, but it's been that for almost a month now so I'm thinking it's got an issue of some sort.

86101 also hasn't worked the last couple of nights - 92032 is doing the ECS honours (although that might just be to give 032 a run out before the Kings Cross operation over the weekend).

 

[Mag_seven]

Sorry, should've credited you with the sighting... was trying to recall who it was who'd seen it!



Still "X" on TOPS. I reckon it's just been kicked out to make space! I know the statuses on TOPS aren't always reliable, but it's been that for almost a month now so I'm thinking it's got an issue of some sort.

86101 also hasn't worked the last couple of nights - 92032 is doing the ECS honours (although that might just be to give 032 a run out before the Kings Cross operation over the weekend).

87002 still outside today, along with 92023.

 

[Jay92044]

Does anyone know what tonight's allocations are looking like? Presume 92010/033 and 90044 will be on the down workings to Kings X, with 92018 and Skoda 42 on the up? As 92014 is showing a exam is due.

 

[Mag_seven]

Does anyone know what tonight's allocations are looking like? Presume 92010/033 and 90044 will be on the down workings to Kings X, with 92018 and Skoda 42 on the up? As 92014 is showing a exam is due.

You have "down" and "up" transposed!

Will be interested to know tonight's runners and riders particularly on the Southbound (i.e. "up") services!

 

[TimboM]

Does anyone know what tonight's allocations are looking like? Presume 92010/033 and 90044 will be on the down workings to Kings X, with 92018 and Skoda 42 on the up? As 92014 is showing a exam is due.

I don't know what they'll be, but I don't think you're too far off. If they stay in their current rotations (which isn't always a given) it'd be:

Southbound/Up:
92033 on the Lowlander (1M11 [Correction: 1E35] ) via EDB to pick up the Edinburgh portion and via ECML to KGX

92028 on the Polmadie-Glasgow ECS (5M11) [and the return in the morning (5S26)]

92010 taking the EDB Lowlander portion ECS (5C11) to EDB, then remaining in Waverley working one of the 'split' Highlanders. [UPDATE: worked the Aberdeen/Fort William 1E43]

90044 (currently stabled in Waverley) working the other Highlander. [UPDATE: worked the Inverness 1E39]

Northbound/Down:
1S25 and 1S26 this evening are going via the ECML and a reverse at Wembley, so both will need to go into Euston T'n'T with the "main" loco on the front (buffer end).

I expect 92018 (currently on the Highlander) will be one of them and then either 92014 (if exam done quickly) or 90042 as you suggest.

The two Euston-Wembley "drag-back" locos would then most likely be 92032 and 86101 (and/or 90042 if 92014 is operational).

92032 did the ECS last two nights in place of 86101, but I presume this was to give 92032 a run-out having not worked for a bit (and had a recent spell in Willesden for exam/repair) rather than finding out when needed this weekend that it had some fault or other.

Anyway, we'll see...!

UPDATE: TOPS showing 86101 and 92032 at Euston in the "engine siding" ready to do the Euston-Wembley drag-backs. 92018 and 90042 at Wembley so presumably they'll bring the ECS in for 1S25/1S26 then be on the front after the reverse at Wembley. 92014 at Willesden, so presumably stopped for that exam.

87002/92023 still "X" as they have been for a while (especially 87002).

 

[TimboM]

The timings for 1S25 and 1S26 are showing only 10 mins and 20 mins respectively for the reverse at Wembley. When this was done for the spring ECML diversions it was 30-40 mins and often took a good chunk of that time.

I believe the lead loco out of Euston will still need come off as I understand the T'n'T is now 'disallowed' for the Sleeper on the main trunk run.

It may just be a vagary of the timings and there's padding elsewhere, but these turnaround times will need some nifty work at Wembley if they're to be met..!

1S25: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C74104/2017/08/25/advanced

1S26: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C74108/2017/08/25/advanced

 

[Scotrail84]

The timings for 1S25 and 1S26 are showing only 10 mins and 20 mins respectively for the reverse at Wembley. When this was done for the spring ECML diversions it was 30-40 mins and often took a good chunk of that time.

I believe the lead loco out of Euston will still need come off as I understand the T'n'T is now 'disallowed' for the Sleeper on the main trunk run.

It may just be a vagary of the timings and there's padding elsewhere, but these turnaround times will need some nifty work at Wembley if they're to be met..!

1S25: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C74108/2017/08/25/advanced

1S26: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C74108/2017/08/25/advanced

Correct, TnT is banned on trains in service. Any loco on moves must be dead in tow behind the the lead loco.

 

[TimboM]

I've updated the post above, but to highlight for the Northbound/Down workings...

TOPS is showing 86101 and 92032 at Euston in the "engine siding" ready to run round and do the Euston-Wembley drag-backs for each service (86101 on 1S25, 92032 on 1S26).

92018 and 90042 showing as being at Wembley so presumably they'll bring the ECS x2 in for 1S25 (i.e. 5S95) and 1S26 (i.e. 5S96) then be on the front after the reverse at Wembley to take the trains north.

92014 at Willesden, so guessing it's stopped for that exam.
87002/92023 still "X" as they have been for a while (especially 87002).

UPDATE: 92 just taken 5S95 Highlander ECS in, presumably 92018, so that will be on 1S25; with 90042 on 1S26 (...if TOPS is correct).

 

[Mag_seven]

The timings for 1S25 and 1S26 are showing only 10 mins and 20 mins respectively for the reverse at Wembley. When this was done for the spring ECML diversions it was 30-40 mins and often took a good chunk of that time.

I believe the lead loco out of Euston will still need come off as I understand the T'n'T is now 'disallowed' for the Sleeper on the main trunk run.

It may just be a vagary of the timings and there's padding elsewhere, but these turnaround times will need some nifty work at Wembley if they're to be met..!

1S25: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C74108/2017/08/25/advanced

1S26: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C74108/2017/08/25/advanced

Both these links bring up 1S26. Here is the 1S25 link:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C74104/2017/08/25/advanced

 

[TimboM]

Both these links bring up 1S26. Here is the 1S25 link:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C74104/2017/08/25/advanced

Doh! Corrected original post too.
Thanks.

 

[43096]

Correct, TnT is banned on trains in service. Any loco on moves must be dead in tow behind the the lead loco.

So how does that work with tomorrow's Skegness 66s?

 

[TimboM]

86101 on 1S25 Euston-Wembley (with the 92 under power on the rear up Camden Bank).

92032 on 1S26 Euston-Wembley

 

[TimboM]

So how does that work with tomorrow's Skegness 66s?

Reference is to Sleepers only I believe. TnT clearly ok on many other loco hauled workings (scheduled and railtours).

To do with how the 92s are braked (or not) when dead on rear and in layman's terms you end up with 126 tonnes clunking into the back of the rake every time the train brakes which doesn't make for a peaceful night's sleep.

There's a post buried somewhere with a more technical explanation.

 

[Mag_seven]

86101 on 1S25 Euston-Wembley (with the 92 under power on the rear up Camden Bank).

92032 on 1S26 Euston-Wembley

Obviously to help speed up the reversal process at Wembley Yard.

 

[Sarahs_Railway]

I have uploaded a few images of 73971 stabled at Fort William Oil Terminal. It isn't the easiest place to come up with imaginative angles as there is the oil terminal on one side and fencing all around but hopefully they look ok.
For anyone venturing up to this site it is very easy to locate - just follow the A82 from FTW as if you were going to Inverness then left at roundabout signed for Inverlochy.
PS Bring waterproofs. It was bucketing down up there today and the midges were out big time.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/149563882@N07/

 

[TimboM]

Obviously to help speed up the reversal process at Wembley Yard.

Will have helped the reversal process, but also think it was done to get the train up Camden Bank without issue. Might have still been sat on Camden Bank if the 92 hadn't been giving it a shove - didn't exactly race up!

Looks like they detached the 86 and did the reversal in the 10 mins - good effort

 

[Scotrail84]

Will have helped the reversal process, but also think it was done to get the train up Camden Bank without issue. Might have still been sat on Camden Bank if the 92 hadn't been giving it a shove - didn't exactly race up!

Looks like they detached the 86 and did the reversal in the 10 mins - good effort

2 early at Welwyn

 

[Jay92044]

I don't know what they'll be, but I don't think you're too far off. If they stay in their current rotations (which isn't always a given) it'd be:

Southbound/Up:
92033 on the Lowlander (1M11) via EDB to pick up the Edinburgh portion and via ECML to KGX

92028 on the Polmadie-Glasgow ECS (5M11) [and the return in the morning]

92010 taking the EDB Lowlander portion ECS (5C11) to EDB, then remaining in Waverley working one of the 'split' Highlanders.

90044 (currently stabled in Waverley) working the other Highlander.

[The 3x 92s are all at Polmadie so could be switched around - would be surprised if 92028 got put on a full trunk run, though, unless it was absolutely necessary as hasn't worked a passenger service yet since its major overhaul/mods.]

Northbound/Down:
1S25 and 1S26 this evening are going via the ECML and a reverse at Wembley, so both will need to go into Euston T'n'T with the "main" loco on the front (buffer end).

I expect 92018 (currently on the Highlander) will be one of them and then either 92014 (if exam done quickly) or 90042 as you suggest.

The two Euston-Wembley "drag-back" locos would then most likely be 92032 and 86101 (and/or 90042 if 92014 is operational).

92032 did the ECS last two nights in place of 86101, but I presume this was to give 92032 a run-out having not worked for a bit (and had a recent spell in Willesden for exam/repair) rather than finding out when needed this weekend that it had some fault or other.

Anyway, we'll see...!

UPDATE: TOPS showing 86101 and 92032 at Euston in the "engine siding" ready to do the Euston-Wembley drag-backs. 92018 and 90042 at Wembley so presumably they'll bring the ECS in for 1S25/1S26 then be on the front after the reverse at Wembley. 92014 at Willesden, so presumably stopped for that exam.

87002/92023 still "X" as they have been for a while (especially 87002).

Yeah that looks the case, cheers.

 

[bb21]

Looks like 92028 brought in the empties from Polmadie as you said and 92033 taking the up lowland.

 

[TimboM]

Looks like 92028 brought in the empties from Polmadie as you said and 92033 taking the up lowland.

Aye - just seen those two are on 5M11 per TOPS and doubt 028 would be taking the train South.

Leaves 92010 as the loco for the ECS out to Waverley (5C11) and must then be the most likely option to work the other half of the Highlander south later as expected (with 90044 on the other half).

Also looks like 86401 has completed its exam at Craigentinny, so possible that will come in on one of the paths in the early hours and then work 5S26 (Down Lowlander Edinburgh portion ECS) back to Polmadie in the morning.

EDIT: 86401 staying at Craigentinny all weekend (effectively as a spare). 92018 worked 5S26 to EDB-Polmadie after it came off 1S25 Down Highlander.

 

[Mag_seven]

Seems there were some issues with two of yesterday mornings Kings Cross-Wembley ECS:

5E39 71 late start: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97180/2017/08/26/advanced

5E43 39 late start: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97181/2017/08/26/advanced

 

[TimboM]

Seems there were some issues with two of yesterday mornings Kings Cross-Wembley ECS:

5E39 71 late start: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97180/2017/08/26/advanced

5E43 39 late start: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97181/2017/08/26/advanced

Possibly for pathing reasons? I'm thinking having three trains going out of Kings Cross (KGX) to just north of Finsbury Park, reversing and heading back south and round the NNL would've caused one or two headaches. I reckon with all the reversals there were 14 extra movements in total to fit in between Hornsey<->Copenhagen Jnc and vice versa.

5E39 and 5E43 left within 3 mins of each other in the end. Also looks like 5E39 (at least) reversed at Ferme Park Reception Sidings instead of Hornsey Sig K440 (although both pretty much in the same place).

Another slightly interesting thing I thought was 92032 (0E39 light loco for 5E39 Inverness ECS) ended up coming into KGX at the same time as 90044/1E39 (https://flic.kr/p/WQC74f not mine) and went into a different platform temporarily before running out and back on top of 1E39. The original timings (and I would have thought more straightforward approach) was for the 92 to run in directly on top of the stock once it was in platform.

I expect a lot of it will be down to Kings Cross box having to fit these extra interlopers in and around the existing traffic coming in and out of the station.

 

[StephenHunter]

I've been looking at my 1967 timetable and have this for the KGX sleepers in May 1967 (cross referencing with the Chronicles of Napier), starting from 0000 onwards:

• 1A02 0100 'The Tynesider' to Newcastle, with a 1st class only portion to Edinburgh Tuesday to Friday, which I think was attached to the Aberdeen service at Newcastle. Deltic hauled, car carrying available.
• 1A58 1930 to Edinburgh, Friday only, Buffet Car to York
• 1A60 1940 'The Aberdonian' to Aberdeen and Fort William, splitting at Edinburgh. Deltic hauled.
• 2115 1A62 Caledonian Road to Perth car sleeper.
• 1A70 2215 to Aberdeen. Deltic hauled.
• 1A72 2230 to Edinburgh. Deltic hauled, car carrying available.
• 1A76 2320 to Edinburgh.
• 1A78 2335 'The Night Scotsman' to Edinburgh. Deltic hauled.

Were cars carried on a separate train to the non-Perth sleepers?

 

[Adam0984]

Seems there were some issues with two of yesterday mornings Kings Cross-Wembley ECS:

5E39 71 late start: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97180/2017/08/26/advanced

5E43 39 late start: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97181/2017/08/26/advanced

The issue was that due to an oversight no one was booked to dispatch the trains from Kings Cross. In the end VTEC staff dispatched but had to be authorised by higher powers

 

[TimboM]

Does anyone know which locos did which ECS moves from Wembley into Kings Cross last night please?

I'm fairly certain it was 86101 and 90044 with one loco taking 5S66 (Inverness ECS) in then running out once 1S66 had left to attach to the 'back' of 5S72 (Glasgow ECS) at Ferme Park/Hornsey and drag that back in; and then the second loco working 5S70 (Aberdeen/Fort William ECS)...

...assuming this much is correct, anyone know which way round it was?


EDIT: Found the answer I think... 90044 worked 5S70 (with 92033). So guessing that leaves 86101 doing the rest.

 

[43094]

Yes, that's correct.

To complete the picture, 92010 was 1S66, 92033 1S70 & 92014 1S72.

 

[A Challenge]

Is it normal for a loco to work a sleeper into Edinburgh (from Fort William in this case) and then out again the same night? I saw the same (Class 73) loco in Fort William on the front of the sleeper two days running.

Will update with exact number if I can find the photos!

 

[TimboM]

Is it normal for a loco to work a sleeper into Edinburgh (from Fort William in this case) and then out again the same night? I saw the same (Class 73) loco in Fort William on the front of the sleeper two days running.

Will update with exact number if I can find the photos!

More often the case than not the 73/9 working the Fort William portion in to Waverley in the evening then takes the portion north in the early hours (and likewise the Aberdeen portion).

However, they usually all head to Craigentinny for the few hours in between (along with the hired-in DB 67 from the Inverness portion) so swaps can happen for a variety of operational reasons (e.g. a loco may need to be switched as it has a fault, or due an exam etc).

Also as per your sighting, the same loco may stay on the same portion for a few nights running.
There are only 3x 73/9s currently in service (other three in Loughborough) so the other factor at the moment is there aren't that many to choose from!

73970 worked Fort William last night by the way, 73967 on Aberdeen.