Caledonian Sleeper discussion

[najaB]

I wonder how the Scotrail Guards strikes have been impacting on the running of the Sleeper on the routes not covered by their own Guards?

Have a look at RTT for the Aberdeen and Inverness portions...

Edit: Both running ECS for when the links stop working.

 

[Clansman]

Well I'm currently on the southbound sleeper from Glasgow. Just north of Lockerbie. And we have been stood 10 minutes or so. Not sure why.
Lots of waiting in the lounge car tonight. Only 1 guy working. And lots of people mysteriously locked out of their rooms.

Rob

You were stopped at Beattock Summit because your train was 14 minutes early.

 

[Observer]

How plausable would it be for Serco to use VTEC/XC guards instead for the Inverness / Aberdeen journeys where applicable?

 

[Blindtraveler]

I dont have a clue if dooable but its pritty poor IMO of Scotfail and TS not to appologise publicly for the inconvenience being caused to non scotrail pax by a Scotrail issue

 

[BRX]

I was booked to travel this Thursday to Fort William. Got an email at the weekend saying it was cancelled beyond Edinburgh. Didn't fancy getting put onto a bus in the wee hours - negates the whole purpose of the sleeper so am going to go by day train instead.

 

[Johnuk123]

I was booked to travel this Thursday to Fort William. Got an email at the weekend saying it was cancelled beyond Edinburgh. Didn't fancy getting put onto a bus in the wee hours - negates the whole purpose of the sleeper so am going to go by day train instead.

Do you know why it's terminating at Edinburgh ?

 

[BRX]

Do you know why it's terminating at Edinburgh ?

Because of the Scotrail strike. I assume they can't get a guard for the Edinburgh to FTW leg.

 

[thetangoman]

I noticed that last nights southbound from Fort William was listed on RTT as an empty stock movement. When it passed my house it was double headed by CS 73's and if I remember right 7 coaches instead of the usual 4

 

[Johnuk123]

Because of the Scotrail strike. I assume they can't get a guard for the Edinburgh to FTW leg.

Oh yes I expect you're right.

 

[Haig paxton]

How plausable would it be for Serco to use VTEC/XC guards instead for the Inverness / Aberdeen journeys where applicable?

They won't be passed out on the Sleeper stock. Quite different from the HST.

 

[47271]

Yes, that's exactly what's happening. There aren't enough guards available to cover all of the sections north of Edinburgh on strike days so they run the affected trains ECS to keep them in position, and the crew and passengers bounce alongside in a fleet of coaches.

Not at all satisfactory, but I suppose they're doing everything they can to keep the trains running.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are they only running any of them to Edinburgh? If so, might it make sense to offer a choice of a coach at 4am or a coach at say 7am so the passengers can at least get some kip? Or run the train later from Euston?

 

[Haig paxton]

This might be the chance for more people to try the megabus sleeping coach.

 

[BRX]

Are they only running any of them to Edinburgh? If so, might it make sense to offer a choice of a coach at 4am or a coach at say 7am so the passengers can at least get some kip? Or run the train later from Euston?

I've actually asked them if there's an option to stay (asleep) on the train at edinburgh and continue north by rail later in the day.

 

[Norther Monkey]

Yes, that's exactly what's happening. There aren't enough guards available to cover all of the sections north of Edinburgh on strike days so they run the affected trains ECS to keep them in position, and the crew and passengers bounce alongside in a fleet of coaches.

Not at all satisfactory, but I suppose they're doing everything they can to keep the trains running.

As something of an aside I'm fairly disappointed that the RMT are allowing this dispute to impact so severely the sleeper services. As I understand it, they have no current dispute with Serco yet are subjecting sleeper pasengers to significant disruption (potentially costing other workers money, family time or both).

It certainly loses them much of my sympathy. If there's any RMT members reading I'd be interested in their opinion.

 

[gsnedders]

As something of an aside I'm fairly disappointed that the RMT are allowing this dispute to impact so severely the sleeper services. As I understand it, they have no current dispute with Serco yet are subjecting sleeper pasengers to significant disruption (potentially costing other workers money, family time or both).

It certainly loses them much of my sympathy. If there's any RMT members reading I'd be interested in their opinion.

I presume Serco have a contract with Abellio ScotRail to provide guards, so as far as the guards are concerned it's part of their ScotRail contract and subject to disputes with ScotRail management.

 

[Flying Snail]

I've actually asked them if there's an option to stay (asleep) on the train at edinburgh and continue north by rail later in the day.

But with the strike on there won't be any rail services later in the day.

If they wanted to be proactive they should offer 2 coach services as suggested, one as close to the normal times and a second allowing a reasonable nights sleep.

For Aberdeen and Inverness they could always book passengers wishing to sleep later onto a citylink/megabus service.

Looking at their website they give no times for the replacement coach service which is no good for anyone trying to plan a journey for strike days.

 

[Agent_c]

As something of an aside I'm fairly disappointed that the RMT are allowing this dispute to impact so severely the sleeper services. As I understand it, they have no current dispute with Serco yet are subjecting sleeper pasengers to significant disruption (potentially costing other workers money, family time or both).

It certainly loses them much of my sympathy. If there's any RMT members reading I'd be interested in their opinion.

I'm not a RMT member, but the dispute is with their employer, Scotrail. It is with Scotrail that CS have their contract - they've outsourced their need for guards and are Scotrail's client just as much as any rail passenger is.

With your theory no outsourcer would ever have to fear about their staff going on strike because it would impact the client as well as the employer

 

[BRX]

But with the strike on there won't be any rail services later in the day.

The strike is on the 14th; it'll be the morning of the 15th when we actually get to Edinburgh.

If they wanted to be proactive they should offer 2 coach services as suggested, one as close to the normal times and a second allowing a reasonable nights sleep.

For Aberdeen and Inverness they could always book passengers wishing to sleep later onto a citylink/megabus service.

Looking at their website they give no times for the replacement coach service which is no good for anyone trying to plan a journey for strike days.

Agree with this in principle though.

 

[Norther Monkey]

I'm not a RMT member, but the dispute is with their employer, Scotrail. It is with Scotrail that CS have their contract - they've outsourced their need for guards and are Scotrail's client just as much as any rail passenger is.

With your theory no outsourcer would ever have to fear about their staff going on strike because it would impact the client as well as the employer

Not sure I agree with that, this is a very specific, and peculiar, set of circumstances. Surely each set of action could be considered on its merits. As far as I know the RMT has no current quarrel with their duties in support of Serco. The unions currently (often unfairly) struggle with their PR and the publics' perception of them. Knocking out the sleeper service seems very short sighted, causing further disruption to the public on a service, and to a company who are not part of this dispute.

 

[Whistler40145]

Is there any business case for one of the Sleepers to call additionally at Birmingham New Street, thus giving passengers from the Midlands an overnight service to Scotland?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there any business case for one of the Sleepers to call additionally at Birmingham New Street, thus giving passengers from the Midlands an overnight service to Scotland?

That, and Milton Keynes Central, which is probably more justified than Watford Junction. However, the platforms are too short, so that would require SDO, which is not fitted to the existing stock.

 

[reb0118]

The strike is on the 14th; it'll be the morning of the 15th when we actually get to Edinburgh.



Agree with this in principle though.

There are three separate departures from Edinburgh after the Highland Sleeper from London arrives and splits.

Only for the Aberdeen [ABD] portion does the guard book on at Edinburgh [EDB] that morning - for the other two (Inverness [INV] & Fort William [FTW]) the guard will book on the previous night (but won't as he will be on strike) to take the evening portion from Perth [PTH] & Glasgow [GLQ] respectfully to EDB.

Edinburgh crews can no longer work via Bathgate [BHG] & very few will still have the sleeper traction and the route knowledge between Dunblane [DBL] & Hilton Jn. I personally still do but I'm not convinced that the rostering system in place actually realises that. (As an aside my depot "lost" a route a few years back so from the timetable change we only worked a through train 3/4 of the way where previously we'd worked it throughout. Nothing else changed for that diagram so we were booked to sit in the depot and await our next workings. On day one of the change they cancelled the last 1/4 of the run: reason no crew! When we queried this we were told that we didn't have the route knowledge!!)

I do sympathise will the sleeper staff & esp. passengers as you are collateral damage in a dispute not of your making however I have heard that ScotRail contacted Serco early on in this dispute to discuss their requirements in manning the sleeper during strike action (we have a few "sleeper daft" managers who would love playing at trains at ungodly hours.....) but were told by Serco that they could manage with their own staff. I don't think Serco fully understood the requirements that that would entail.

Practical solutions? Not many....

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

 

[Norther Monkey]

There are three separate departures from Edinburgh after the Highland Sleeper from London arrives and splits.

Only for the Aberdeen [ABD] portion does the guard book on at Edinburgh [EDB] that morning - for the other two (Inverness [INV] & Fort William [FTW]) the guard will book on the previous night (but won't as he will be on strike) to take the evening portion from Perth [PTH] & Glasgow [GLQ] respectfully to EDB.

Edinburgh crews can no longer work via Bathgate [BHG] & very few will still have the sleeper traction and the route knowledge between Dunblane [DBL] & Hilton Jn. I personally still do but I'm not convinced that the rostering system in place actually realises that. (As an aside my depot "lost" a route a few years back so from the timetable change we only worked a through train 3/4 of the way where previously we'd worked it throughout. Nothing else changed for that diagram so we were booked to sit in the depot and await our next workings. On day one of the change they cancelled the last 1/4 of the run: reason no crew! When we queried this we were told that we didn't have the route knowledge!!)

I do sympathise will the sleeper staff & esp. passengers as you are collateral damage in a dispute not of your making however I have heard that ScotRail contacted Serco early on in this dispute to discuss their requirements in manning the sleeper during strike action (we have a few "sleeper daft" managers who would love playing at trains at ungodly hours.....) but were told by Serco that they could manage with their own staff. I don't think Serco fully understood the requirements that that would entail.

Practical solutions? Not many....

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

Thanks for the information, it's appreciated. As a regular Scotrail, and reasonably regular Sleeper user this strike starting to get not only frustrating, but is also costing me financially and in terms of quality of life.

I'm broadly supportive of your cause. Not so much from the safety of DOO, but simply that having a well trained railway savvy member of staff on the train tends to make travelling a better experience.

That said, the levels of disruption being caused are starting to reduce the sympathy I have for the cause. The RMT will need the public on side of that are ultimately to win this battle. They should carefully consider how this enduring action is affecting public opinion.

Edited to add, why could those guards rostered for Sleeper work not turn up for work? Your strike still has impact on Scotrail services but you avoid the 'collateral damage'.

 

[Bodiddly]

Thanks for the information, it's appreciated. As a regular Scotrail, and reasonably regular Sleeper user this strike starting to get not only frustrating, but is also costing me financially and in terms of quality of life.

I'm broadly supportive of your cause. Not so much from the safety of DOO, but simply that having a well trained railway savvy member of staff on the train tends to make travelling a better experience.

That said, the levels of disruption being caused are starting to reduce the sympathy I have for the cause. The RMT will need the public on side of that are ultimately to win this battle. They should carefully consider how this enduring action is affecting public opinion.

Edited to add, why could those guards rostered for Sleeper work not turn up for work? Your strike still has impact on Scotrail services but you avoid the 'collateral damage'.

So what you are saying is the strike is affecting you personally. Isn't that the whole point of a strike?

 

[Norther Monkey]

So what you are saying is the strike is affecting you personally. Isn't that the whole point of a strike?

I thought a strike was intended to put pressure on the employer, with the side effect that the travelling public were affected. If the whole point of a strike is to affect the public then I'd suggest the unions can forget any significant popular support for their cause.

I'm any case, my main point is that the strike is needlessly disruptive, specifically as the RMT are witholding labour from a company with which they are not in dispute. I merely suggest that with a little more thought they could do things a little differently, which may help keep more of the public on side. As is now being seen with Southern this is a political as well as industrial dispute. Public support will help apply political pressure, I think all unions are naive in how they present themselves to the public.

I'm a working man, the type the unions claim to represent. If union action costs me time, money and ultimately work then I'd suggest I've every right to at least debate their industrial action.

 

[Chrism20]

I thought a strike was intended to put pressure on the employer, with the side effect that the travelling public were affected. If the whole point of a strike is to affect the public then I'd suggest the unions can forget any significant popular support for their cause.

I'm any case, my main point is that the strike is needlessly disruptive, specifically as the RMT are witholding labour from a company with which they are not in dispute. I merely suggest that with a little more thought they could do things a little differently, which may help keep more of the public on side. As is now being seen with Southern this is a political as well as industrial dispute. Public support will help apply political pressure, I think all unions are naive in how they present themselves to the public.

I'm a working man, the type the unions claim to represent. If union action costs me time, money and ultimately work then I'd suggest I've every right to at least debate their industrial action.

Have to disagree with the comments about the RMT withholding labour.

The people on strike are employed by ScotRail and the RMT dispute is with ScotRail.

Serco pay ScotRail to provide guards they don't pay the guards directly as they are ScotRail employees seconded to work a Serco service. Their working terms and conditions are governed by ScotRail.

 

[Bodiddly]

I thought a strike was intended to put pressure on the employer, with the side effect that the travelling public were affected. If the whole point of a strike is to affect the public then I'd suggest the unions can forget any significant popular support for their cause.

I'm any case, my main point is that the strike is needlessly disruptive, specifically as the RMT are witholding labour from a company with which they are not in dispute. I merely suggest that with a little more thought they could do things a little differently, which may help keep more of the public on side. As is now being seen with Southern this is a political as well as industrial dispute. Public support will help apply political pressure, I think all unions are naive in how they present themselves to the public.

I'm a working man, the type the unions claim to represent. If union action costs me time, money and ultimately work then I'd suggest I've every right to at least debate their industrial action.

Your post sounds rather naive if you think that industrial action isn't intended to affect the public. You only have to look at strike dates to realize they tie in with particular days to cause maximum impact. That is the bargaining chip the union have over the employer. Is it just coincidence that Thursday's strike day is the first day of the Open? As for your quote that the strike is needlessly disruptive, there is no such thing as needless disruption when you have chosen industrial action because disruption is the whole point of a strike. Whether you agree with the strike or not, people are feeling the pain on both sides.
The Serco contract is only that, a contract to provide guards for their trains. If guards are on strike, they can't provide the service. Your view is that they should work the trains because they are not Scotrail services and is again a very naive view in how a union carries out industrial action. Are Network Rail signallers unable to strike because it stops other companies trains running on their infrastructure?

 

[47271]

Regardless of all of the above and the rights and wrongs of the strike, if I were Serco I'd be trying to come up with a better Plan B than bussing people all over Scotland in the middle of the night.

That the empty train, including your empty bed, is virtually running alongside you adds insult to injury, it's difficult to imagine anything more farcical.

I'd imagine that if you're subjected to that as a first time sleeper user you'd be thinking 'never again'.

 

[Norther Monkey]

Your post sounds rather naive if you think that industrial action isn't intended to affect the public. You only have to look at strike dates to realize they tie in with particular days to cause maximum impact. That is the bargaining chip the union have over the employer. Is it just coincidence that Thursday's strike day is the first day of the Open? As for your quote that the strike is needlessly disruptive, there is no such thing as needless disruption when you have chosen industrial action because disruption is the whole point of a strike. Whether you agree with the strike or not, people are feeling the pain on both sides.
The Serco contract is only that, a contract to provide guards for their trains. If guards are on strike, they can't provide the service. Your view is that they should work the trains because they are not Scotrail services and is again a very naive view in how a union carries out industrial action. Are Network Rail signallers unable to strike because it stops other companies trains running on their infrastructure?

I might have a naive view. But, if it's a course of action that costs the RMT public support in a dispute that has a huge political aspect then I contend it may not be me who is being naive.