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Caledonian Sleeper discussion

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Blindtraveler

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idont disagree with you and its nice to hear that 2 of the essential pax who, once Serco have made the whole thing unproffitable will shout loudest should the decision be taken to cut it!
At £130 or so a pop, the customers mentioned are doing rather well. This type of customer and their employers will take a rise to an extent but CS need to be very careful here or they'll lose the core market outwith the tourist season and this can only have 1 outcome.
 
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philjo

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I went to Glasgow on the Lowland sleeper last night. First time since serco took over. freightliner livery 90045 was on the front at Glasgow this morning. On board generally better than before. The bedding is better especially the pillows which helped to filter out the noise. The highland breakfast was good - I had this in the lounge car so the food was hot but much smaller portion than a EC breakfast! On my last 2 trips all first offered was a strawberry yoghurt & soggy croissant so a big improvement. The Glasgow section wasn't very busy about half the cabins in my coach were empty.
 

CosherB

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Apparently, Freightliner have had a recent review of their loco fleet and there are a number of 90's that are now available to support the CS.

Meanwhile, a number of the CS 92's are working ECS moves in Scotland and also Mossend - Carlisle freight diagrams. Presumably for 'testing' and 'recommissioning' ..... this should have been done 12 months ago!
 

GM228

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Apparently, Freightliner have had a recent review of their loco fleet and there are a number of 90's that are now available to support the CS.

Meanwhile, a number of the CS 92's are working ECS moves in Scotland and also Mossend - Carlisle freight diagrams. Presumably for 'testing' and 'recommissioning' ..... this should have been done 12 months ago!

If rumours are true the FL review will see all their 90s redundant shortly, I find that hard to believe though!

The 92s are still restricted to ECS/local/frieght duties UFN.
 

Observer

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Is there any chance of GBRf perhaps taking on the 90s permanently if that is the case? They'd get at least a few more years out of them before new coaching stock requires 92s or any new / refurb which would satisfy ETH requirements.
 

Whistler40145

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The best idea would be to focus Class 90s on the current Sleeper services and put the Class 92s through a full works overhaul for use with the new sleeper stock.

Expecting Class 92s to start working on Sleeper services, when they've been primarily freight locomotives and had lengthy periods in store and the ETH equipment never had been used and required modifications prior to use was another problem.
 

GM228

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The best idea would be to focus Class 90s on the current Sleeper services and put the Class 92s through a full works overhaul for use with the new sleeper stock.

Expecting Class 92s to start working on Sleeper services, when they've been primarily freight locomotives and had lengthy periods in store and the ETH equipment never had been used and required modifications prior to use was another problem.

The dedicated 92s have already got an overhaul!
 

cadder toad

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92018 was sitting at the west end of the sleepers last night(Sat) at Polmadie. Don't know if it worked tonight(Sun)
 

JonathanH

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92018 was sitting at the west end of the sleepers last night(Sat) at Polmadie. Don't know if it worked tonight(Sun)

90045 worked the lowland sleeper on Sunday night - arrived Euston at 0615. 92018 did the Glasgow empties.

Scot-rail group says that 92032 did the Edinburgh portion.

Indications are that 90044 would have worked the northbound Glasgow sleeper, 90035 the southbound Highland sleeper and possibly 90047 on the northbound Highland sleeper (since it was the 90 in use on that at the end of last week).
 

andrewkeith5

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90045 worked the lowland sleeper on Sunday night - arrived Euston at 0615. 92018 did the Glasgow empties.

Scot-rail group says that 92032 did the Edinburgh portion.

Indications are that 90044 would have worked the northbound Glasgow sleeper, 90035 the southbound Highland sleeper and possibly 90047 on the northbound Highland sleeper (since it was the 90 in use on that at the end of last week).

I'm not sure which one it was but there was definitely a Freightliner liveried (in a very old looking silver livery) Class 90 on the southern end of the sleeper on platform 15 at Euston last night (From memory 15 is the highland?)
 

fgwrich

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I'm not sure which one it was but there was definitely a Freightliner liveried (in a very old looking silver livery) Class 90 on the southern end of the sleeper on platform 15 at Euston last night (From memory 15 is the highland?)

More than likely you saw 90043 then - I saw it in Edinburgh a few weeks back, looking rather service worn with BR Double Arrows and Depot Plate removed, but still in Two Tone grey and original Freightliner Logos.
 

andrewkeith5

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More than likely you saw 90043 then - I saw it in Edinburgh a few weeks back, looking rather service worn with BR Double Arrows and Depot Plate removed, but still in Two Tone grey and original Freightliner Logos.


Yes, that'll be the one then! Thanks. It did look in a bit of a state, and the grey livery didn't help.
 

17jwarman

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I think they should, as a toc now, order new locos. They are already getting new coaches so why not get new locos? I mean, they could really do something with electro-diesel locos, by which i mean could run off of OHLE and diesel.
There would be electro diesel locos to operate each highland portion, because even tapping into the wires between waverley and haymarket could save money on fuel. The fort william portion runs under wires to helensburgh! The three portions would meet up at edinburgh and two locos could stay behind whilst the other hauls the whole train to london. Surley this would be so much more cost effective as you wouldnt need so many locos?

1 for inverness portion
1 for aberdeen portion
1 for fort william portion
2 for the london run

1 for the glasgow portion
2 for the edinburgh portion and london run
these could be purley electric or they could be electro diesel for operational and maintenance conviniences

then would you need some for empty stock movements? CS currently has 5 locos for that

so all in all you're looking at 13 locos all of the same class. CS currently has 13+ (wikipedia dosent know how many class 90s they use) locos of 6 different classes

Also a question: i have added locos for the london runs because idk if locos can switch ends at euston. If so you'd only need 11 locos.
 
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HSTEd

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I am beginning to think they should operate the Highland sleeper as two separate trains.
That way they could use push pull rakes coupled together and cut the locomotive requirement significantly. (They can't do this currently because the platforms are too short).
 

HSTEd

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Do you mean the Lowland?

No, the Highland, if the train is broken into a train of one portion and one of two portions then all three diesel locomotives can be left coupled to their trains throughout.

It rather drastically simplifies the working of the trains. Since it then becomes far easier to have push pull sets working the service.
 

MarkyT

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The class 92 performance concern is nonsense.

Let's look at some specs:

Class 90:
Maximum speed - 110 mph (180 km/h)
Power output - 5,000 hp (3,730 kW)
Tractive effort - 58,000 lbf (258 kN)

Class 92:
Maximum speed - 87 mph (140 km/h)
Power output (25 kV) - 6,760 hp (5,040 kW)
Tractive effort - 81,000 lbf (360 kN), 90,000 lbf (400 kN) in 'boost' mode

On key indicators such as power and tractive effort, the 92 beats the 90 hands down. With a heavy loco-hauled set (up to 16 cars I understand) the 92 will do much better up the steep gradients at the northern extremities of the WCML and should be able to accelerate the train up to maximum speed much more quickly after both scheduled and unexpected stops en-route. On a southbound it's true that a 92 may not be able to use higher speed to catch up on late running, but it can be argued that the sheer grunt available on the northern section will have made such late running much less likely in the first place.

The 73s in their rebuilt form are a slightly different case. To all intents and purposes they are new locomotives, albeit within an old shell, and with only bogies and traction motors being the major components retained (refurbished to an as new condition), whilst the engine, generator, traction control and cab equipment are all new to modern standards with all the latest safety systems and bells and whistles as provided for new traction. The new engines fitted will almost perfectly match their maximum electrical output of 1,600 hp (1,193 kW) and if, as likely, they are heavier, they should be able to exceed their historic maximum electric tractive effort of around 40,000 lbf (177.9 kN) on diesel. That is very close to a cl.37 performance in a lighter weight package, and very suitable on their own for the half trains or double headed for the whole 16 cars. By contrast, the 67 is rubbish at the lower speeds. Despite an installed diesel power output of 3,200 bhp (2,386 kW), around 2,500 hp (1,864 kW) at rail, it only develops a tractive effort of 32,000 lbf (144 kN) maximum, or 20,700 lbf (92kN) @75kmh continuously. Clearly a cl.68 is much better than that with installed diesel power of 3,800 hp (2,800 kW) and tractive effort of 71,000 lbf (317 kN), but they are limited to 99MPH. The bigger risk of the cl.73 rebuilds is, in fact, their newness. With most important components being in fact 20 years younger than those in the cl.92s, they haven't all yet been tested exhaustively in service together as a system.

Whilst I respect drivers and their experience, they and their union leadership are not engineers, planners or safety professionals. Maximum speed capability is only one aspect of performance, with available tractive effort often being more important for applications where hill climbing and good acceleration are required. With the cl.73s being effectively new locomotives there remains a risk of minor flaws being uncovered, but these should be able to be fixed in the testing process underway currently before introduction in service.

Lastly if it is British jobs the union is worried about, the 73 rebuild has provided many thousands of hours of employment for British engineers and craftsmen in Loughborough. A new locomotive would have been built overseas like the 67s and 68s.

(NB - All locomotive power and tractive effort figures quoted above obtained from Wikipedia, so usual caution applies as to their veracity)
 

GM228

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Wasn't the 'performance concern' actually about the reliability (or lack of) with the 92s, as opposed to outright grunt? Everything looks good on paper.

Indeed the concerns are about their reliability which is why they are currently off front line duty!
 

MarkyT

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I haven't been keeping up with the thread to be perfectly honest! Interesting to hear some quoted figures re maintenance costs for 92 v 90 the other day. DBS are (allegedly) looking to downsize/offload their 92 compliment to around 5 (the same number of locos that are HS1 enabled), with the figure of £250k per year maintenance for a single 92 quoted against around £82k for a single 90.

I understand they are very complex beasts with many systems duplicated as a specific requirement for channel tunnel operation. I wonder if they could take a heavy half life rebuild with major redesign and modern components to improve reliability and maintenance costs. Would that be worth it compared to a new build?
 

Essexman

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Unlike other operators serco seem to have nothing on their website showing state of service. I'm on Inverness southbound sleeper tonight and highland line currently blocked but serco give no indication as to whether sleeper will run.
 

Edward101

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Unlike other operators serco seem to have nothing on their website showing state of service. I'm on Inverness southbound sleeper tonight and highland line currently blocked but serco give no indication as to whether sleeper will run.

I agree this would be very useful. The website makes mention of planned engineering but does not give real time information. For the Highland line disruption tonight, I suppose you'll have to check the Scotrail website for updates. I have checked the Scotrail website and it suggests that services are slowly returning to normal, and a full service should be back up and running for 7pm. Sounds like you'll be ok on the sleeper tonight but keep checking.
 
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An unrelated post but I happened to be in Euston the hour leading up to the highland sleeper departure and wondered how the PA system would deal with announcing it, but it wasn't announced. Is this normal?
 

najaB

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An unrelated post but I happened to be in Euston the hour leading up to the highland sleeper departure and wondered how the PA system would deal with announcing it, but it wasn't announced. Is this normal?
I'm pretty sure I've heard it announced before.
 

Edward101

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An unrelated post but I happened to be in Euston the hour leading up to the highland sleeper departure and wondered how the PA system would deal with announcing it, but it wasn't announced. Is this normal?

I have never heard it announced either, in all the times I have used it, though it is shown on all the departure boards. To be fair, I don't listen out for the announcements particularly as I always know what platform it will leave from (15 on weekdays and 1 on Sundays). It can also be difficult to hear announcements on the crowded concourse, I realise.
 
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