CAF selects Newport for UK rolling stock factory

[RichmondCommu]

And why First Group went to CAF for 12 EMUs for TPE, only last year.
These are seemingly bog-standard EMUs, and the CAF design had no UK experience.
The 802 order is more understandable, as it part of the GWR order profile.

Well as you said previously if the DfT / TOC's are indeed propping up CAF once the UK orders are complete or if the Spanish plants have spare capacity it will more than likely be the South Wales plant that goes first.

 

[WatcherZero]

https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/about-us/publications.html?task=file.download&id=469772150

The size of the fleet is increasing by a fifth over the next couple of years but we are still replacing the 70's/80's era rolling stock. When that's done we will probably looking at replacing the 90's. Even purely like for like replacement and not catering for increased demand starting around the 20's we will be looking to order around 600 a year.

The graphs on page 20 and page 9 are quite informative.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Lets remember its politics - if the winning wales and border franchise bidder includes welsh assembled CAF trains its a win win for the Welsh Government and they will bask in the headline its for the here and now of course there will be talk of wining more orders and exports but that's a problem fo the next Minister...

 

[coppercapped]

Regarding the longevity of the factory - I hope it lasts longer than INMOS.

 

[Moonshot]

Lets remember its politics - if the winning wales and border franchise bidder includes welsh assembled CAF trains its a win win for the Welsh Government and they will bask in the headline its for the here and now of course there will be talk of wining more orders and exports but that's a problem fo the next Minister...

It is indeed.

 

[ac6000cw]

Regarding the longevity of the factory - I hope it lasts longer than INMOS.

The semiconductor production plant at Newport that Inmos built in 1982 is still making chips - it's gone through several owners since Inmos days (currently owned by Infineon, but they are looking to sell it). So that's 35 years of production so far...

 

[coppercapped]

The semiconductor production plant at Newport that Inmos built in 1982 is still making chips - it's gone through several owners since Inmos days (currently owned by Infineon, but they are looking to sell it). So that's 35 years of production so far...

I'm glad it's still working - but somewhere I had picked up the idea that it had closed.

Glad to be wrong in this case!

 

[dgl]

I'm glad it's still working - but somewhere I had picked up the idea that it had closed.

Glad to be wrong in this case!

Yep, brought by International Rectifier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Rectifier now a division of Infineon

 

[Dai Corner]

Yep, now owned by International Rectifier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Rectifier

Getting back to railways, IR are owned by Infineon who, among many other products, make components for railway traction systems (but not in Newport as far as I know).

https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/applications/industrial/traction/

 

[coppercapped]

Getting back to railways, IR are owned by Infineon who, among many other products, make components for railway traction systems (but not in Newport as far as I know).

https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/applications/industrial/traction/

Infineon used to be Siemens' semiconductor business until it was hived off nearly 20 years ago.

 

[jon0844]

I did some searching on Twitter for the reactions and there are, as you might expect, a lot of Brexit supporters using this plant as proof that we're perfectly able to do without Europe and this is proof that all the remoaners were wrong.

 

[HH]

I did some searching on Twitter for the reactions and there are, as you might expect, a lot of Brexit supporters using this plant as proof that we're perfectly able to do without Europe and this is proof that all the remoaners were wrong.

Or is it proof that we're already on the path to be a low wage, low corporate tax haven for international business?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I did some searching on Twitter for the reactions and there are, as you might expect, a lot of Brexit supporters using this plant as proof that we're perfectly able to do without Europe and this is proof that all the remoaners were wrong.

The CAF contracts preceded the Brexit vote, and they were bound to support them locally in the UK.
Stadler, on the other hand, was post-referendum.
They have still to say if they will have a UK presence (though they will own maintenance facilities here).

And how does "do without Europe" and ordering from CAF fit together?

 

[Gareth Marston]

The CAF contracts preceded the Brexit vote, and they were bound to support them locally in the UK.
Stadler, on the other hand, was post-referendum.
They have still to say if they will have a UK presence (though they will own maintenance facilities here).

And how does "do without Europe" and ordering from CAF fit together?

The real world is lot more grey and less black and white than many Brexiters perceive.

 

[47802]

Problem with this of course is that its not really any benefit if it takes an order that would have otherwise gone to Bombardier/Hitachi or Siemens.

For instance if they got the tube contract in preference to the Bombardier/Hitachi bid which one suspects is a significant motivation behind this then clearly that would significantly detrimental to both those companies and not much overall benefit to the UK.

So it would have to be such as the regional DMU. or Trams where the others don't offer such a product or a UK built version of it, and other than tube train contract I think there will be significant lack of orders and trains to build beyond the end of 2020.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Problem with this of course is that its not really any benefit if it takes an order that would have otherwise gone to Bombardier/Hitachi or Siemens.

It does provide competition (keeps the others honest).
WG cannot, of course, direct that trains for Wales come from this factory.
Competitions have to be open, even outside the EU.

 

[coppercapped]

46,000 m^2 (assuming this is all building) is similar to Hitachi's Building at Newton Aycliffe at 44,000 m^2 so this is going to be final assembly only rather than complete factory where the norm is 10-20 times bigger across Europe for the big Alstom, Bombardier or Siemens plants.

£30m + the WG grant isn't going to buy much building and equipment given that floor area hence it again just looks like final assembly from this point of view.

Completely gaming the UK jobs + apprenticeships concept.

Practically all factories doing final assembly work have sourced their material from other sites or companies. Aircraft factories don't make all the parts on one site, large chunks are made elsewhere and then put together. Large chunks of the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carrier were not made at Rosyth, but only assembled there. Cars are frequently assembled in plants where practically everything - engines, seats, windows, trim, wiring - are made elsewhere.

There is no longer any correlation between the size of the final assembly plant and depth of manufacture. This correlation is a very 19th century concept.

 

[ac6000cw]

Practically all factories doing final assembly work have sourced their material from other sites or companies. Aircraft factories don't make all the parts on one site, large chunks are made elsewhere and then put together. Large chunks of the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carrier were not made at Rosyth, but only assembled there. Cars are frequently assembled in plants where practically everything - engines, seats, windows, trim, wiring - are made elsewhere.

There is no longer any correlation between the size of the final assembly plant and depth of manufacture. This correlation is a very 19th century concept.

Agreed - and also assembly and fitting out of trains is labour intensive because you're having to fit a lot of equipment into a small space (just think about all the wiring and plumbing behind the panels, as well as everything under the floor). So from a jobs point of view, the final assembly plant is probably one of the better parts of the production chain to have.

The electronics business (where I work) is probably a good example of today's globalised, fragmented production - a UK company selling their own products into, say, the industrial capital equipment sector, might contract with someone to design it (my end of the business) then with another UK company to manufacture it for them.

That sub-contract manufacturer then buys a variety of standardised component parts (usually via distributors) that are made in high-volume production plants all over the world. It might buy the printed circuit board (the custom made panel that the components are soldered to which wires them all together) from another UK company, then it assembles components on the board, puts it into an enclosure (which has come from yet another supplier), maybe adds some hand wiring to connect circuit board to connectors and switches etc. on the enclosure. After testing the finished product and packaging it, it ships it to the original 'product' company.

So in the scenario above, the company that is actually selling the end product actually does very little of the manufacturing (or the detailed design), but it does support a whole hinterland of jobs in the UK and around the world. This is the essence of 21st century manufacturing, at least at the lower volume end of things (and trains are not high-volume products).

 

[CosherB]

Pardon me, but the UK is still a fully paid up member of the EU and will remain so for (at least) a further two years! :roll:

I accept, however, that such inward investment has one eye on a post-Brexit world, whatever that form may take.

 

[Dave1987]

As Roger Ford pointed out in a recent MR, there is going to be a lot of 'give us orders or we close the plant' once this current glut in orders finishes. That coupled with Brexit. A lot of the current order book are being built (yes fully built not just assembled) outside the UK. I don't think NA will survive long term as after the current order book is complete it was intended to assemble trains for the Europe market. Then Hitachi went and purchased a full manufacturing plant in Europe. Politicians may be singing from the rafters about UK jobs but it will be a very different story in a few years time. Doubt this CAF plant will last long so forgive me for not singing from the rafters. UK needs long term well paid stable jobs.......

Wonder whether the jobs will actually even get £3m into the local economy via wages.

 

[northwichcat]

Pardon me, but the UK is still a fully paid up member of the EU and will remain so for (at least) a further two years! :roll:

I accept, however, that such inward investment has one eye on a post-Brexit world, whatever that form may take.

Yes but a new facility doesn't happen overnight - they need to buy the land, design the facility, get planning permission, build the facility and recruit staff to work in the facility before it can do anything. My old employer moved off a site which was sold to developers, by the time the development was complete my employer's 5 year lease for a new site had almost expired.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So in the scenario above, the company that is actually selling the end product actually does very little of the manufacturing (or the detailed design), but it does support a whole hinterland of jobs in the UK and around the world. This is the essence of 21st century manufacturing, at least at the lower volume end of things (and trains are not high-volume products).

On top of that, components cross borders multiple time before ending up in final assembly.
The automotive, aerospace and electronics sectors have complex supply chains which need "frictionless" trade. Train manufacture is no different.
While the final assembly jobs may be fairly numerous, they are not "high value".
Hardly any of the Hitachi, Siemens, CAF or Stadler trains have UK-designed content.
Alstom can call on UK design skills for traction packages, and Bombardier can do a bit better on the overall package, but most of the "value" is still foreign.
But the financing deals often have a high UK content, so it's quite likely that the biggest contribution to UK PLC from train-building orders is from the City (even if built abroad).

 

[Chester1]

As Roger Ford pointed out in a recent MR, there is going to be a lot of 'give us orders or we close the plant' once this current glut in orders finishes. That coupled with Brexit. A lot of the current order book are being built (yes fully built not just assembled) outside the UK. I don't think NA will survive long term as after the current order book is complete it was intended to assemble trains for the Europe market. Then Hitachi went and purchased a full manufacturing plant in Europe. Politicians may be singing from the rafters about UK jobs but it will be a very different story in a few years time. Doubt this CAF plant will last long so forgive me for not singing from the rafters. UK needs long term well paid stable jobs.......

Wonder whether the jobs will actually even get £3m into the local economy via wages.

Newton Aldcliffe has a capacity of 35 carriages per month so approximately 420 per year. The CAF site is nearly the same size and will probably have a similar capacity. If Alstrom turn their Halewood site into a assembly site with similar capacity then the total capacity of all 3 assembly factories would not exceed 1300 carriages per year. In comparison HS2 will need 540 for phase 1 and in excess of 1000 for phase 2 and there are 6500 currently on order. I don't know what Bombardier Derby capacity is. There is enough work as long as we export a small number of trains. If that doesn't happen then the industry isn't sustainable. I agree with Fords argument but it is no different to the political pressure by Bombardier. The factories need enough UK orders to stay open but significantly less than their maximum capacity so that they have to export to make good profits. I am reasonably optimistic that the UK can export, particularly outside of the EU. Hitachi is continuing to invest in NA and it is now was 900 staff at the factory. It has a good facility and it would be a waste of money to close it even if it is costed into their IEP contract price.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I am reasonably optimistic that the UK can export, particularly outside of the EU. Hitachi is continuing to invest in NA and it is now was 900 staff at the factory. It has a good facility and it would be a waste of money to close it even if it is costed into their IEP contract price.

A good sign would be if Newton Aycliffe got some of the ETR1000 (or its successor) work for Trenitalia, currently targeted at Pistoia.
All we have so far is the reverse (Pistoia building 802s for the UK).

 

[RichmondCommu]

The factories need enough UK orders to stay open but significantly less than their maximum capacity so that they have to export to make good profits. I am reasonably optimistic that the UK can export, particularly outside of the EU.

I'm sorry to say I'm not. When was the last time any rolling stock let alone locomotives were exported from this country? Off the top of my head I can only think of trams from Derby to somewhere overseas.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm sorry to say I'm not. When was the last time any rolling stock let alone locomotives were exported from this country? Off the top of my head I can only think of trams from Derby to somewhere overseas.

Trams were for Strasbourg.
Electrostar for Gautrain (Johannesburg), but mostly assembled in SA.
Alstom UK electrics are used on some TGV derivatives (inc class 373).

Used kit:
Class 86/87/92 to Hungary/Bulgaria.
Class 66s to Europe (US/Canada-built).

There is some UK (BR) IPR used in Switzerland and Italy (APT-derived).

 

[RichmondCommu]

Trams were for Strasbourg.
Electrostar for Gautrain (Johannesburg), but mostly assembled in SA.
Alstom UK electrics are used on some TGV derivatives (inc class 373).

Used kit:
Class 86/87/92 to Hungary/Bulgaria.
Class 66s to Europe (US/Canada-built).

There is some UK (BR) IPR used in Switzerland and Italy (APT-derived).

I presume the electric locos were snapped up because they were cheap rather than anything else.

I'm guessing that the class 66s were just transferred across to different subsidiaries?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I presume the electric locos were snapped up because they were cheap rather than anything else.

I'm guessing that the class 66s were just transferred across to different subsidiaries?

Yes to both...
Sensibly, the GM/EMD design of the 66 was intended for use across Europe, not just the UK.
Some other UK locos (eg class 20, 56) have been used on high-speed construction projects, as they were the only surplus diesel locos available.
They were often scrapped afterwards.

 

[CosherB]

Yes to both...
Sensibly, the GM/EMD design of the 66 was intended for use across Europe, not just the UK.
Some other UK locos (eg class 20, 56) have been used on high-speed construction projects, as they were the only surplus diesel locos available.
They were often scrapped afterwards.

Or parked up, doing nothing, in France and Spain, in the case of the 58s.

 

[SamYeager]

The automotive, aerospace and electronics sectors have complex supply chains which need "frictionless" trade.

Worth noting that despite no free trade deal between the USA & the EU both their major civil aircraft manufacturers include significant amounts of products from each other's countries. I do feel some posters may be a bit too much "doom and gloom" about the effect of Brexit