CAF selects Newport for UK rolling stock factory

[thenorthern]

I would think the CAF factory will stay open for quite a long time, post Brexit the British Government will want to look like they are supporting British jobs which buying trains from Siemens won't be the same.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I would think the CAF factory will stay open for quite a long time, post Brexit the British Government will want to look like they are supporting British jobs which buying trains from Siemens won't be the same.

Even if the product from Siemens is superior?

It would be interesting to know how many British jobs were responsible for the production of a class 700 compared to a CAF product assembled in this country.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I would think the CAF factory will stay open for quite a long time, post Brexit the British Government will want to look like they are supporting British jobs which buying trains from Siemens won't be the same.

Except that, at the moment, you can't specifically exclude Siemens and Stadler from winning a bid, because the competition is also based on spec, cost and performance, and even financing and maintenance.
In fact CAF has not (yet) included maintenance in its contracts, unlike all the others.

If you lined up the competing trains and worked out the UK content, I wouldn't expect CAF or Hitachi to be more than 25% even with UK assembly.
Hitachi can also assemble trains in Italy rather than Newton Aycliffe, so there is no guarantee orders will be fulfilled in the UK..
Without local plants Siemens is maybe 10%, and Stadler maybe only 5% with no UK presence.
Bombardier maybe about 40% at Derby.
Introduction and maintenance would obviously have a high UK content.
But the vast bulk of design and development (the best-paying jobs) remain abroad.
Those figures also include UK-specific parts like TPWS which can't realistically come from abroad.

 

[Moonshot]

I would think the CAF factory will stay open for quite a long time, post Brexit the British Government will want to look like they are supporting British jobs which buying trains from Siemens won't be the same.

Makes you wonder what will happen to Airbus workers in the UK post brexit.

 

[RichmondCommu]

This is a truism - it is valid for any factory.

True but a job in the Wearside Nissan car plant is probably a lot more secure than the new CAF plant. The same could be said for the BMW plant at Cowley if it gets the go ahead to build the electric Mini.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Makes you wonder what will happen to Airbus workers in the UK post brexit.

Well quite, especially given that BAE sold their stake in Airbus some years a go.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Neither do I.....and in fact if a member of this forum was to announce that he/she was setting up their own business in the rail environment, I m sure we would wish them the best of luck and applaud them for taking a business risk.

I dare say some of us would but there is a difference between well meaning sentiment and being prepared to invest in their business venture and sharing the risk. Words are cheap.

 

[thenorthern]

Even if the product from Siemens is superior?

It would be interesting to know how many British jobs were responsible for the production of a class 700 compared to a CAF product assembled in this country.

Indeed I am not saying its right but given that both the right wing press such as the Daily Mail and the unions both will criticize the DfT when a contract is given to a company that will build trains for the United Kingdom abroad the Government will want to show its creating British Jobs when ordering trains even if it is from CAF, Bombardier and Hitachi which aren't British firms.

Makes you wonder what will happen to Airbus workers in the UK post brexit.

Indeed as I think the situation will change soon.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Which is a sad thing of course but surely the years (however many it ends up being) of high quality and well paid jobs it provides are, on the whole, a net positive to both the local area and the UK as a whole?

I have grave doubts about the long term viability of the Hitachi plant in my neck of the woods but even if it only lasts ten years that's ten years of quality jobs for an area that's sorely lacking in them.

I just don't get the attitude of 'oh well it'll close in a couple of years anyway so why bother?'...

The problem is if the Hitachi plant closes in ten years time how many other skilled jobs are there within an hours drive of Shildon other than Nissan? You're then faced with not being able to pay mortgage or being able to feed and buy clothes for your children.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Indeed I am not saying its right but given that both the right wing press such as the Daily Mail and the unions both will criticize the DfT when a contract is given to a company that will build trains for the United Kingdom abroad the Government will want to show its creating British Jobs when ordering trains even if it is from CAF, Bombardier and Hitachi which aren't British firms.

As I said before how many British jobs were involved in the Siemens contract to build the class 700s compared to a CAF assembly plant in South Wales? A quick internet search suggests around 2,000 jobs.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

As I said before how many British jobs were involved in the Siemens contract to build the class 700s compared to a CAF assembly plant in South Wales?

A Siemens plant on Tyneside was used for supplying some of the electrical components.
Siemens might not have much of a manufacturing presence in rail (though they have recently bought signalling assets), but they are big in other engineering and systems sectors, like health and wind turbines.
Overall, I'm sure they can claim a significant UK presence.
Alstom and Hitachi are other companies with a significant UK operation outside rail.

 

[158756]

The problem is if the Hitachi plant closes in ten years time how many other skilled jobs are there within an hours drive of Shildon other than Nissan? You're then faced with not being able to pay mortgage or being able to feed and buy clothes for your children.

Better to be able to feed your children for 10 years than not at all. If we're only considering proximity to multiple big car plants then no one should ever open a factory anywhere. 20% of the workers of Shildon worked in some sort of manufacturing before the Hitachi plant opened. How skilled are it's jobs anyway, just putting the train together?

Of course it would be better if the factory was more permanent, actually building trains - but no company is ever going to invest in such a facility when British manufacturing is uncompetitive on price and the market is entirely dependent on the whims of the UK government, with foreign customers unlikely to buy anything.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Of course it would be better if the factory was more permanent, actually building trains - but no company is ever going to invest in such a facility when British manufacturing is uncompetitive on price and the market is entirely dependent on the whims of the UK government, with foreign customers unlikely to buy anything.

As coppercapped pointed out the weak pound might help with exports but we will have to wait and see.

 

[krus_aragon]

As coppercapped pointed out the weak pound might help with exports but we will have to wait and see.

But as LNW-GW Joint and superkev mentioned upthread, the British-based supply chain of components is not what it was, so many parts will be imported for assembly.

 

[thenorthern]

CAF probably know something we don't know such as with the Valley Lines electrification happening soon who will the Welsh Government call on to build the new trains?

 

[158756]

CAF probably know something we don't know such as with the Valley Lines electrification happening soon who will the Welsh Government call on to build the new trains?

They know something we don't if they think Valley Lines electrification will happen any time soon.

 

[RichmondCommu]

But as LNW-GW Joint and superkev mentioned upthread, the British-based supply chain of components is not what it was, so many parts will be imported for assembly.

I concur but exports might give the plant a more assured future.

 

[RichmondCommu]

CAF probably know something we don't know such as with the Valley Lines electrification happening soon who will the Welsh Government call on to build the new trains?

When you say soon.....

 

[krus_aragon]

When you say soon.....

... I think of Spaceballs.

[youtube]5drjr9PmTMA[/youtube]

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I concur but exports might give the plant a more assured future.

Yes, but CAF are a Spanish company and will put their plants in Spain first.
It was said they were on the brink of closing some before they got the string of UK TOC orders.

 

[Mikey C]

For the last 5-10 years I imagine the UK has bought more rolling stock than more or less every other country in Europe anyway, when you consider the size of the S stock, 700, 345, 80* orders, the big orders for Greater Anglia, SWT and elsewhere, and the upcoming NTfL order.

Manufacturers desperately want a slice of this action. The UK market is clearly very attractive, and with the high population density and sheer number of long distance commuters, likely to remain so.

 

[jon0844]

Which is a sad thing of course but surely the years (however many it ends up being) of high quality and well paid jobs it provides are, on the whole, a net positive to both the local area and the UK as a whole?

I have grave doubts about the long term viability of the Hitachi plant in my neck of the woods but even if it only lasts ten years that's ten years of quality jobs for an area that's sorely lacking in them.

I just don't get the attitude of 'oh well it'll close in a couple of years anyway so why bother?'...

You're absolutely right, and it's certainly good for as long as it lasts - but I do fear some of these deals will bolster the Brexit voters into thinking that our leaving the EU is not an issue now we're showing how great everything is going to be - and then having a nasty shock in 10 or 15 years.

If these plants were big enough to allow us to restart full-scale manufacturing in the UK, and not need to import all the components from abroad, it would be genuinely good news and a sign that we feel we can manufacture things again.

But it's not really like that is it?

I interviewed someone recently who works for a UK firm that makes mobile phones, but as you can guess, they're bought from China and redesigned by a UK agency. So they are like Apple; designed in the UK, made in China.

They sell one phone for £99 and last year they went to Wales to see if it was practical to build the phones there, so they could go for the 'Made in UK' badge to possibly boost sales off the back of our increased patriotism.

For one, the components would all be imported, but just the final assembly would have forced the phone to go up in price by around £40. A huge increase on such a cheap device, and only really doable if they tried to get into the premium end of the market where the increase could be absorbed more easily (but at that end, you're dead in the water competing with Samsung, LG, HTC, Apple etc).

I'm sure if he could secure funding to build a plant, he'd consider it but it would obviously only last for as long as he was being subsidised.

Neither do I.....and in fact if a member of this forum was to announce that he/she was setting up their own business in the rail environment, I m sure we would wish them the best of luck and applaud them for taking a business risk.

Not quite a member of this forum, or starting from nowhere, but what about the support for Vivarail?

 

[jon0844]

For the last 5-10 years I imagine the UK has bought more rolling stock than more or less every other country in Europe anyway, when you consider the size of the S stock, 700, 345, 80* orders, the big orders for Greater Anglia, SWT and elsewhere, and the upcoming NTfL order.

Manufacturers desperately want a slice of this action. The UK market is clearly very attractive, and with the high population density and sheer number of long distance commuters, likely to remain so.

We are certainly going mad for new rolling stock, but how long until we reach another dip in demand and existing orders are in service and running for 30-40 years, perhaps longer?

 

[sjoh]

We are certainly going mad for new rolling stock, but how long until we reach another dip in demand and existing orders are in service and running for 30-40 years, perhaps longer?

In some respects I feel we've set ourselves up for a bit of a financial rollercoaster. It's great having lots of investment in great new shiny trains, but the problem is they're also all going to be needing replacing at a similar time. This puts pressure on production lines (ie a longer queue for products all being ordered at the same time), and squeezes finances (whether that's reflected in the passenger fare or not, it certainly does at some level have an impact on the wider ability to invest in other railway projects).
It would have been nice to have staggered orders for stock to keep production ticking over gently. But i appreciate that's not exactly easy to do given the decentralised nature of operating railway services today.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Not quite a member of this forum, or starting from nowhere, but what about the support for Vivarail?

Shooter missed a trick not promising jobs for the Boyo's he could have got WG to pay for a facility for him. Then again the DfT Permanent Secretary Rutnam promised him the D Stock was in the frame for the North of England until the political consequences dawned on Cameron's Government in the run up to the 2015 Election.

 

[Mikey C]

We are certainly going mad for new rolling stock, but how long until we reach another dip in demand and existing orders are in service and running for 30-40 years, perhaps longer?

One bonus for train manufacturers, is that with changing requirements, especially around London, the life expectancy of trains is being cut artificially short. The Mk3 based EMUs, the D78 Underground stock all were replaced before being life expired, and similar thing will happen to the Networkers, and many of these trains have little practical use elsewhere on the network.

 

[fgwrich]

I see the Siemens supply jobs comment upthread has been bought up again - here is the diagram produced around the time of the introduction of the 700s. You've also got to remember that there's a fair few other suppliers not mentioned on there - Axminster Carpets in Devon (All of the FGW & GWR Carpets are from them), Treadmaster of Cornwall (again a big supplier to FGW), ATD of Coventry supplying seats - there's also a supplier who's name escapes me who is producing brand new doors for 158s amongst other units at the moment.

Let's not also forget that if manufacturing does decline, These facilities will also double up as large supply and servicing facilities - if anything, they'll be the opposite of Alstom's Widnes site which is being set up to service and supply first, then potentially manufacture later.

 

[D365]

Even if the product from Siemens is superior?

There must be a reason why SWR have ordered from Bombardier despite First Group having extensive insights into the Class 700 procurement and Class 707 testing...

 

[RichmondCommu]

There must be a reason why SWR have ordered from Bombardier despite First Group having extensive insights into the Class 700 procurement and Class 707 testing...

Yes I suppose there must be.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Yes I suppose there must be.

And why First Group went to CAF for 12 EMUs for TPE, only last year.
These are seemingly bog-standard EMUs, and the CAF design had no UK experience.
The 802 order is more understandable, as it part of the GWR order profile.