CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Peter Sarf]

As an indication as to how much the 197s are stretched I observed the following at Crewe yesterday (Thursday 08/10/2026/).

The late running 16:29 from Milford Haven to Manchester came into platform 6 as 4car 197. Then detached the rear two cars (197014). I watched as everyone (some belatedly and panicking) struggled to get on the front two coaches.

This (197014) then reversed out of platform 6 to make way for other services and I guessed it would become the 17:10 from Manchester to Cardiff (starting from Crewe). So I realised a two car 197 covering for a 67 + Mk4s and nothing from Manchester to Crewe.
I was going to use this to get to Nantwich but switched to the 17:19 stopper to Shrewsbury which I belatedly spotted on the screens !.

I watched from the 17:19 in platform 8 (?) as platform 6 filled up with a lot of passengers and then minutes after 197014 had reversed back into platform 6 (now late) there must have been an announcement and I watched lots of prospective passengers moving along the platform towards 197014. I could not see properly but i guess some might have been left behind.

My 17:19 left with very few passengers in the front coach by comparison. Either no one for Crewe to Shrewesbury was made aware of this alternative OR it indicates most standing passengers on the 17:10 were going beyond Shrewsbury. Not a nice "first class with catering" offering there then.

I remember seeing similar happening the last time I spent time at Crewe station. Bank Holiday Monday two 67+Mk5s were de-trained at platform 6 !.
One case replaced by a 2car 197 and the other case I think nothing.

It really indicates to me how dire the situation is if there are theoretically spare 197s (while Cambrian is not yet using 197s) but cannot cover a 5 or 6 coach South Wales / Manchester service. I can see that TfW can only safely manage a partial switch over on Cambrian any time soon so a shuttle between Pwllheli to Machynlleth seems the most we can hope for any time soon (say for 12 months).

 

[Andrew888]

with the Aberystwyth portion running solo, 2 cars vice 4

I'm familiar! With the aisles rammed with people standing and hence impassable, from Shrewsbury to Birmingham.

Also picks up a few minutes delay at each of those stations due to it taking forever for people to get on and off from the doors at the end. An issue a 197 would presumably be less affected by :/

 

[Harpo]

As an indication as to how much the 197s are stretched I observed the following at Crewe yesterday (Thursday 08/10/2026/).

The late running 16:29 from Milford Haven to Manchester came into platform 6 as 4car 197. Then detached the rear two cars (197014). I watched as everyone (some belatedly and panicking) struggled to get on the front two coaches.

This (197014) then reversed out of platform 6 to make way for other services and I guessed it would become the 17:10 from Manchester to Cardiff (starting from Crewe). So I realised a two car 197 covering for a 67 + Mk4s and nothing from Manchester to Crewe.
I was going to use this to get to Nantwich but switched to the 17:19 stopper to Shrewsbury which I belatedly spotted on the screens !.

I watched from the 17:19 in platform 8 (?) as platform 6 filled up with a lot of passengers and then minutes after 197014 had reversed back into platform 6 (now late) there must have been an announcement and I watched lots of prospective passengers moving along the platform towards 197014. I could not see properly but i guess some might have been left behind.

My 17:19 left with very few passengers in the front coach by comparison. Either no one for Crewe to Shrewesbury was made aware of this alternative OR it indicates most standing passengers on the 17:10 were going beyond Shrewsbury. Not a nice "first class with catering" offering there then.

I remember seeing similar happening the last time I spent time at Crewe station. Bank Holiday Monday two 67+Mk5s were de-trained at platform 6 !.
One case replaced by a 2car 197 and the other case I think nothing.

It really indicates to me how dire the situation is if there are theoretically spare 197s (while Cambrian is not yet using 197s) but cannot cover a 5 or 6 coach South Wales / Manchester service. I can see that TfW can only safely manage a partial switch over on Cambrian any time soon so a shuttle between Pwllheli to Machynlleth seems the most we can hope for any time soon (say for 12 months).

A friend witnessed a similar pantomime at Shrewsbury last Saturday with a service to Pembroke Dock losing a unit that reappeared to attach to a North Wales service.

 

[Caaardiff]

As an indication as to how much the 197s are stretched I observed the following at Crewe yesterday (Thursday 08/10/2026/).

The late running 16:29 from Milford Haven to Manchester came into platform 6 as 4car 197. Then detached the rear two cars (197014). I watched as everyone (some belatedly and panicking) struggled to get on the front two coaches.

This (197014) then reversed out of platform 6 to make way for other services and I guessed it would become the 17:10 from Manchester to Cardiff (starting from Crewe). So I realised a two car 197 covering for a 67 + Mk4s and nothing from Manchester to Crewe.
I was going to use this to get to Nantwich but switched to the 17:19 stopper to Shrewsbury which I belatedly spotted on the screens !.

I watched from the 17:19 in platform 8 (?) as platform 6 filled up with a lot of passengers and then minutes after 197014 had reversed back into platform 6 (now late) there must have been an announcement and I watched lots of prospective passengers moving along the platform towards 197014. I could not see properly but i guess some might have been left behind.

My 17:19 left with very few passengers in the front coach by comparison. Either no one for Crewe to Shrewesbury was made aware of this alternative OR it indicates most standing passengers on the 17:10 were going beyond Shrewsbury. Not a nice "first class with catering" offering there then.

I remember seeing similar happening the last time I spent time at Crewe station. Bank Holiday Monday two 67+Mk5s were de-trained at platform 6 !.
One case replaced by a 2car 197 and the other case I think nothing.

It really indicates to me how dire the situation is if there are theoretically spare 197s (while Cambrian is not yet using 197s) but cannot cover a 5 or 6 coach South Wales / Manchester service. I can see that TfW can only safely manage a partial switch over on Cambrian any time soon so a shuttle between Pwllheli to Machynlleth seems the most we can hope for any time soon (say for 12 months).

Looks like 1W59 was taken out of service at Crewe on the way into Manchester. Failed Mark4?

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G38983/2026-10-08/detailed

 

[Peter Sarf]

Looks like 1W59 was taken out of service at Crewe on the way into Manchester. Failed Mark4?

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G38983/2026-10-08/detailed

I assume that would be it. In the timetable the 2car service was supposed to have first class and a buffet. So I guess the 67+Mk4s failed sometime earlier in the day. Result two short formed services and one starting some way from its intended origin. Better than nothing.

Would make sense to have spare 197s dotted about (yeay £ssss) AND all South Wales to Manchester services formed of 197s.

Queue the idea of more Flirts for South Wales to free up 197s to bin of the unreliable micro fleet (67s+Mk4s).

 

[Turbo004]

Looks like 1W59 was taken out of service at Crewe on the way into Manchester. Failed Mark4?

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G38983/2026-10-08/detailed

Yes that is correct. The Mark 4 failed with a coach fault at short notice. As a result that was all TfW could do at such short notice. Ideally TfW would have a 5 car 197 spare at Crewe depot but that is not realistic.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Yes that is correct. The Mark 4 failed with a coach fault at short notice. As a result that was all TfW could do at such short notice. Ideally TfW would have a 5 car 197 spare at Crewe depot but that is not realistic.

One common fleet of 197s would make it easier.

I spied a 197 in Crewe South yard but nothing to say that was available.

 

[ajay1071]

I assume that would be it. In the timetable the 2car service was supposed to have first class and a buffet. So I guess the 67+Mk4s failed sometime earlier in the day. Result two short formed services and one starting some way from its intended origin. Better than nothing.

Would make sense to have spare 197s dotted about (yeay £ssss) AND all South Wales to Manchester services formed of 197s.

Queue the idea of more Flirts for South Wales to free up 197s to bin of the unreliable micro fleet (67s+Mk4s).

Are the fleet ready that unreliable? As I understand it there were many issues snd failures during their early days of their introduction but they seem to have settled down to a reliable stock formation with the odd failures which one can expect with all stock. As for the comfort and travelling environment on a mk4 set compared to say a 197 there is no comparison and the mk4's win hands down.

 

[MrBeanie]

When you look at some services out of Manchester being worked by 2 car 197's, both on the North Wales line or down to Cardiff / Swansea there's no comparison between that and a mk4 service. I would take the mk4 every time.

 

[Peter Sarf]

When you look at some services out of Manchester being worked by 2 car 197's, both on the North Wales line or down to Cardiff / Swansea there's no comparison between that and a mk4 service. I would take the mk4 every time.

But will it be a Mk4 every time it is supposed to be ?.

 

[Jez]

There seems to be 2 issues. MK4's being unreliable and most weekdays this year has seen at least 1 diagram out of the 5 being subbed. Even today there is only 3 out of 4 diagrams covered which is 75% Therefore 197s are covering regularly which is making some Manchester-South Wales short formed or other services subbed by something else.

Also 197s appear to still have issues going by the number of Sprinters that are covering on South Wales shorter routes such as Ebbw Vale, Pembroke Dock and Cheltenham. December will certainly be very interesting how they are going to cover everything.

 

[Peter Sarf]

There seems to be 2 issues. MK4's being unreliable and most weekdays this year has seen at least 1 diagram out of the 5 being subbed. Even today there is only 3 out of 4 diagrams covered which is 75% Therefore 197s are covering regularly which is making some Manchester-South Wales short formed or other services subbed by something else.

Also 197s appear to still have issues going by the number of Sprinters that are covering on South Wales shorter routes such as Ebbw Vale, Pembroke Dock and Cheltenham. December will certainly be very interesting how they are going to cover everything.

Getting 398s into service is becoming increasingly important / desperate.

 

[Jez]

Getting 398s into service is becoming increasingly important / desperate.

Exactly. They need to get their act together and sort out issues with 398, 197 and MK4's as this has gone on long enough. Then the 231's can be where they need to be long term.

 

[Peter Sarf]

If it drags on for much longer than I can see some Sprinters being considered for a major overhaul.

With so few 197s on Cambrian should TfW have more 197s to use elsewhere ?.
It is a matter of how many Flirts will be released to their intended routes thus freeing up 197s.
That of course depends on the 398s taking over the jobs covered by Flirts.
But I feel there should currently be a larger number of 197s available.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Anyone heard about the 10 new sets of 197s that TFW are ordering?

 

[Anonymous10]

Anyone heard about the 10 new sets of 197s that TFW are ordering?

Anything confirmed?

 

[southernyoshi]

I say this as a layman passenger on the Cambrian as a sort of advice to TFW - just accept that the 197 rollout on the Cambrian won't happen, deploy them on the lines which are struggling for stock & give the 158s the TLC that they should've already had so they can run for a good few years more. There's nothing wrong with those trains, they're not Pacers or 150s. New aircon & bilingual announcements & they'll be fine.

(And use those years to change the signalling back to join us to the national network again - then the 197s - or any other available diesel trains - can replace the 158s...why did we get a completely different system anyway, it's not like they'd have resignalled the entire UK network if it'd worked)

 

[DS25]

I say this as a layman passenger on the Cambrian as a sort of advice to TFW - just accept that the 197 rollout on the Cambrian won't happen, deploy them on the lines which are struggling for stock & give the 158s the TLC that they should've already had so they can run for a good few years more. There's nothing wrong with those trains, they're not Pacers or 150s. New aircon & bilingual announcements & they'll be fine.

As a massive fan of the 158s this is what would be ideal in my selfish opinion, but sadly it will never happen

 

[Kentish RYS]

(And use those years to change the signalling back to join us to the national network again - then the 197s - or any other available diesel trains - can replace the 158s...why did we get a completely different system anyway, it's not like they'd have resignalled the entire UK network if it'd worked)

Have you missed developments elsewhere? *edit genuine question this, on read back sound very abrupt, I didn't mean it that way*
This signalling system - ETCS - is used on the Thameslink core (admittedly with signals overlayed on longer blocks to allow non ETCS fitted trains to pass), The Northern City Line, the ECML training area (Welwyn Garden City to Hitchin) to allow Signals Away on the East Coast Mainline (with further expansion in early stages), the Heathrow Tunnels *added this to the list the day after the original post, I forgot this one* is in use and it is going in on the TransPennine Route after the upgrade. There are discussions for first areas in other routes/regions and as I understand it, re-signallings now start as a default of ETCS, then have to argue why it is not to be used. Cambrian does have issues with being the only one at first but it is getting more and more common

It is also used internationally (not just Europe, it is now pretty much a worldwide, Except North America Standard)so will be readily available from various suppliers

 

[southernyoshi]

Sorry, I thought the whole problem was that our 158s were the only trains that could run on the Cambrian, because of the signalling. And that that's why we have to have our own little sub fleet of 197s for if they get launched here. Do these introductions elsewhere mean other trains now have the system too? If there are any that have it that are gonna be replaced any time soon then maybe a cascade would be better...

(Even so I can't help thinking that it'd still be a huge waste of the 158s. A decent refurb could surely get another 10 years out of them here at least - & the 197s could go & be useful on the rest of TFW)

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Anything confirmed?

I don't know unfortunately. I just asked a friend who knows someone internally who told him.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Sorry, I thought the whole problem was that our 158s were the only trains that could run on the Cambrian, because of the signalling. And that that's why we have to have our own little sub fleet of 197s for if they get launched here. Do these introductions elsewhere mean other trains now have the system too? If there are any that have it that are gonna be replaced any time soon then maybe a cascade would be better...

The Cambrian ETCS was supposed to be a trial of the system before a wider rollout - I think it was called the 'ETCS Early Deployment Scheme'. I think there was also a 'National Integration Facility' on the Hartford loop which has (or had) an ETCS-fitted PEP EMU? As has already been said, there's also been ETCS installations more-recently on stretches like the Heathrow branch and (I think) Moorgate? However, to my knowledge very little diesel stock has been fitted with the on-train elements of ETCS - there were the 24 class 158s (and four class 37 locomotives, which became class 97/3 after conversion) done for the Cambrian trial, and now the 21 class 197s, and that's about it. An EMU, even if any of the ETCS-fitted ones were available for a cascade, would not be much use on the Cambrian at the moment. Tornado (the new-build A1 class steam locomotive) has also been fitted with ETCS (and has been tested overnight on eastern parts of the Cambrian Main Line, but is not permitted further west than about Newtown I believe (limited by route availability due to weight is my understanding, but I may be wrong)).

 

[Kentish RYS]

Sorry, I thought the whole problem was that our 158s were the only trains that could run on the Cambrian, because of the signalling. And that that's why we have to have our own little sub fleet of 197s for if they get launched here. Do these introductions elsewhere mean other trains now have the system too? If there are any that have it that are gonna be replaced any time soon then maybe a cascade would be better...

(Even so I can't help thinking that it'd still be a huge waste of the 158s. A decent refurb could surely get another 10 years out of them here at least - & the 197s could go & be useful on the rest of TFW)

Other trains have the onboards as well, but all places are in early fitment so nothing to release that has it fitted as it is a case of fitment is ongoing and older stuff is being phased out rather than fitted. Also a lot is electric at the moment, TransPennine will be where a lot of Non electric units get fitted, as many units go on and off the Overhead that is being fitted on of the TransPennine Route.

What is currently fitted and in service:
Cambrian
Class 158 (2 car Regional DMU)
Class 97 (Departmental Class 37 Diesel Locos)
Thameslink
Class 700 (8 & 12 car commuter EMU, 319s and Electrostars were replaced)
NCL
Class 717 (6 car commuter EMU, 313s were replaced)
Heathrow Tunnels
Class 345 (9 car commuter EMU)
387 Electrostar (4 car EMU)
East Coast Mainline
Class 717 (Run from the NCL on to ECML)

Under Test now or soon
Cambrian
Class 197 (2 car Regional DMU)
ECML (Some testing done on Cambrian or at what was called Old Derby Test Track near Melton Mowbray)
Class 700 (8 & 12 car commuter EMU)
Class 180 (125mph Intercity DMU)
Various 80X fleets (125mph Intercity EMUs and Bi-Modes)
Great Northern's Electrostar Fleet (4 car commuter EMUs)
Class 43 (Intercity 125 Powercars for Departmental and Charter Work)
Class 66 (Diesel Freight Locos)
1x LNER A1 (Steam Locomotive)
1x Class 55 Deltic (Heritage Diesel Loco)
Some Ontrack Machines like Tampers and Rail Grinders
Then fitment will spread to everything on the EMCL South. The Current east Coast Digital Programme is to run from London to Peterborough (with some bits still having conventional signals for crossing traffic)

You can see that currently not much is Regional Diesel Units, it is all 125mph Intercity or commuter EMUs or Freight and On Track Machines so cascades aren't going to be a thing soon to Cambrian. I do think it was not the decision I would have made with the number of ETCS fitted 197s. Hopefully all the non ETCS fitted 197s are what is called ETCS ready (i.e. have space for equipment in cupboards and cable runs but still far short of full fitment) so if they do want to add it later it is less painful. There is some details about baseline (sort of release version) with Cambrian being a very early 2.4.0D and ECML being 3.6.0, Cambrian being the in service trial has suffered from being the only one, but it is changing

The TRU ETCS will cover something like 90% of the Northern Drivers and a significant chunk of their fleet will be ETCS fitted so that will be a big change and giving options that may work on Cambrian or be similar enough. The one in the South that will be another big shift (but not much use for Cambrian as again mostly electric trains, though may get some bits depending on what is chosen) is the one that is the 'training area' for Southern (the Sudo TOC that is part of GTR, not the whole region). After a first fitment in a region there will be a tipping point as most staff are trained and trains are fitted so there will be less impediment to new schemes being ETCS.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 00:42 ==

The Cambrian ETCS was supposed to be a trial of the system before a wider rollout - I think it was called the 'ETCS Early Deployment Scheme'. I think there was also a 'National Integration Facility' on the Hartford loop which has (or had) an ETCS-fitted PEP EMU? As has already been said, there's also been ETCS installations more-recently on stretches like the Heathrow branch and (I think) Moorgate? However, to my knowledge very little diesel stock has been fitted with the on-train elements of ETCS - there were the 24 class 158s (and four class 37 locomotives, which became class 97/3 after conversion) done for the Cambrian trial, and now the 21 class 197s, and that's about it. An EMU, even if any of the ETCS-fitted ones were available for a cascade, would not be much use on the Cambrian at the moment. Tornado (the new-build A1 class steam locomotive) has also been fitted with ETCS (and has been tested overnight on eastern parts of the Cambrian Main Line, but is not permitted further west than about Newtown I believe (limited by route availability due to weight is my understanding, but I may be wrong)).

Just to reply to this which came as I was typing the above:
The ETCS National Integration Facility (ENIF) is/was a combination of the Laboratories and Part of the Hartford loop made into a test track (the other line on the section was made Bi-Directional to allow normal service and the testing happened on one line). I don't think the Loop Line can be turned into a test track anymore and the class 313 PEP EMU is now preserved as the setup was to test early stuff, then do a simulation of the Thameslink core where access could be made easier, the rest you have said what I did in far fewer words! The stock Fitted and Tested bit though, any stock then needs approval to enter the ETCS into Service after sufficient testing (approval bodies have to work this out). For things to be used on the ECML and other on Cambrian bits they may need testing on More than just Cambrian as the Cambrian is an early version there are some things that it doesn't have, just as 3.6.0 doesn't have some things that the latest 4.0.0 version has (released specs nothing built with it yet) has

 

[Philip Roberts]

I don't know unfortunately. I just asked a friend who knows someone internally who told him.

Is there already limited capacity at Chester to maintain the 197s? If so, I can't see how this would help without sorting this first

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Is there already limited capacity at Chester to maintain the 197s? If so, I can't see how this would help without sorting this first

Probably, I guess time will tell.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Sorry, I thought the whole problem was that our 158s were the only trains that could run on the Cambrian, because of the signalling. And that that's why we have to have our own little sub fleet of 197s for if they get launched here. Do these introductions elsewhere mean other trains now have the system too? If there are any that have it that are gonna be replaced any time soon then maybe a cascade would be better...
(Even so I can't help thinking that it'd still be a huge waste of the 158s. A decent refurb could surely get another 10 years out of them here at least - & the 197s could go & be useful on the rest of TFW)

The 158s will get their 10-year service extension - with another TOC once TfW have finished with them.

There's a long list of areas where ETCS is being installed or considered, and train fleets being converted, but few dates for live operation.
Even the Trans-Pennine installation is years away and will follow the TRU upgrade.
More likely to involve TfW is the intention to resignal Crewe-Preston-Carlisle with ETCS, including the route through Warrington BQ.
That will require all 197s to be ETCS-capable.
Nobody is going to authorise reversion to classic signalling on the Cambrian.

 

[BenBracken]

I've been told (I do have permission to pass this on) that the plan has gone back to 'big bang' (straight to all 197s from the start of 197 entry-to-service on [a few days after mid-way through October 2026] to the 158s coming off within 48 hours after then.

(I believe that this is still initially Cambrian-only, rather than Cambrian-Birmingham)

Midway through October would be the end of this week? Any further updates?

 

[Harpo]

Midway through October would be the end of this week? Any further updates?

Realtime trains offers clues. I’ve searched trains at Welshpool BUT - That data might be incomplete?

11/10 Last date when RTT shows Pwllheli trains scheduled beyond Machynlleth to International.
12/10 Aber only to Shrewsbury/Brum
23/10 -5/2/27 Aber only to Shrewsbury only
6/2/27 onwards mixes Aber only to Shrewsbury & Birmingham
9/4/27 onwards - No RTT data yet

So, presumably Pwllheli to Mach is self contained from 12/10 until further notice?

 

[Kentish RYS]

Nobody is going to authorise reversion to classic signalling on the Cambrian

It is also worth remembering that the previous signalling on the Cambrian wasn't conventional either, with Radio Electric Token Block (RETB). But as a basic system it did have some portable units for short notice train swaps, but these I imagine weren't as good with signal and the like. The fitted trains the onboard bit fitted to aerials that were on the train and I've seen a photo of a steam special on an RETB line with the fireman with the aerial attached to the shovel and holding it up as high as possible to try and get a signal.

 

[Jez]

As far as I know the Cambrian 197s (003 and 022-041) are the ones fitted but they can be used on other routes much the same as 158s are also used elsewhere.

It just feels like it is taking so long for them to start services on the Cambrian - wasnt it supposed to happen by September 2024 - a 2 year delay at least!