CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[tfw756rider]

Thanks both.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Oct 2025 ==

I know I like the 197s, despite their flaws (including the toilet door problems), but this is bad.

197036 has only been in service for about one month, and while riding on it today, I've seen its toilet door stick open... twice (so the guard had to reset it twice).

And one of the times it was stuck open, when the guard was busy, a young boy ended up having to go for a number 1 with his mother standing in the open doorway (!)

Now, obviously these toilet door problems are the fault of CAF, and thanks to contribution to this thread, I've heard that some progress has been made with fixes, but not finished (if I remember correctly).

Does anyone in here know if any further progress has been made? After what I saw today, this really is bad.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Thanks both.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Oct 2025 ==

I know I like the 197s, despite their flaws (including the toilet door problems), but this is bad.

197036 has only been in service for about one month, and while riding on it today, I've seen its toilet door stick open... twice (so the guard had to reset it twice).

And one of the times it was stuck open, when the guard was busy, a young boy ended up having to go for a number 1 with his mother standing in the open doorway (!)

Now, obviously these toilet door problems are the fault of CAF, and thanks to contribution to this thread, I've heard that some progress has been made with fixes, but not finished (if I remember correctly).

Does anyone in here know if any further progress has been made? After what I saw today, this really is bad.

Don't go toilet on any 197. They are grim even before public use them.

 

[tfw756rider]

Don't go toilet on any 197. They are grim even before public use them.

I find them to be fine *when the door works and the inner lid actually stays up.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

I find them to be fine *when the door works and the inner lid actually stays up.

Fair enough. When I've cleaned them at work before they enter service they are pretty grim when you use a specialist torch.

 

[tfw756rider]

Fair enough. When I've cleaned them at work before they enter service they are pretty grim when you use a specialist torch.

Wow, how is that even possible?

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Wow, how is that even possible?

People who work on the trains beforehand don't clean them very well.

 

[vicbury]

People who work on the trains beforehand don't clean them very well.

I've noticed the cleanliness on the 197s leaves a lot to be desired, and others on here have commented too. Grubby window sills, tables, spray and splatter on walls, ceilings and luggage racks etc. Don't take this as a personal attack though - I'm sure you do your best in the time you are given.

 

[Anonymous10]

I've noticed the cleanliness on the 197s leaves a lot to be desired, and others on here have commented too. Grubby window sills, tables, spray and splatter on walls, ceilings and luggage racks etc. Don't take this as a personal attack though - I'm sure you do your best in the time you are given.

Im noticing it being a general issue with tfw. Been on 231s which looked very dirty inside which had came off canton and 197s as well as the more forgivable 150s. Also found 3 month old train tickets under a seat (seriously?)

 

[Jacob Porrett]

I've noticed the cleanliness on the 197s leaves a lot to be desired, and others on here have commented too. Grubby window sills, tables, spray and splatter on walls, ceilings and luggage racks etc. Don't take this as a personal attack though - I'm sure you do your best in the time you are given.

I only clean them when they have been on test runs. Not passenger service. Same when I external clean them as well.

 

[WirralLine]

I've noticed the cleanliness on the 197s leaves a lot to be desired, and others on here have commented too. Grubby window sills, tables, spray and splatter on walls, ceilings and luggage racks etc. Don't take this as a personal attack though - I'm sure you do your best in the time you are given.

Ive noticed some of the 197s introduced early on are looking quite shabby already. The main thing i noticed is as you say grubby window surrounds with ground in dirt - also the window pillars where people have been resting their heads. I think the main issue is you can wipe the white window surround/pillar panels as much as you like - theyre matt and textured rather than smooth and shiny/easy clean, a poor design for a train.

 

[Jez]

I had a look at RTT and today it seems there are approximately 43 of the 197s in service, 26 x 2 car and 17 x 3 car.

Of the 2 cars - 1 x Bidston, 1 x Liverpool, 2 x Birmingham, 6 x Pembroke/Swanline, 2 x Ebbw Vale/Maesteg, 3 x Cardiff/Holyhead, 2 x Manchester to North Wales and 9 x Manchester to South/West Wales.

Of the 3 cars - 1 x covering for a MK4 diagram, 6 x Manchester to North Wales, 1 x Liverpool, 1 x covering the Crewe Local, 1 x Crewe/Chester, 1 x Ebbw/Maesteg, 3 x Cardiff to Holyhead and 3 x Manchester to South Wales.

There were a few ECS workings which may have been in service earlier and nothing on the Conwy Valley due to engineering work but 43 seems a little bit short.

Interesting that the Crewe-Shrewsbury Stopper is a 3 car 197 vice an AT set. And more 2+2 cars rather than the 2+3 booked for South Wales to Manchester. Seems North Wales is priority for the 3 cars.

 

[sd0733]

I had a look at RTT and today it seems there are approximately 43 of the 197s in service, 26 x 2 car and 17 x 3 car.

Of the 2 cars - 1 x Bidston, 1 x Liverpool, 2 x Birmingham, 6 x Pembroke/Swanline, 2 x Ebbw Vale/Maesteg, 3 x Cardiff/Holyhead, 2 x Manchester to North Wales and 9 x Manchester to South/West Wales.

Manchesters appear to be 4 car almost as regularly as 5 cars now. Several of the 3 car sets appear to now be out of use. They've been replaced by the recent influx of ERTMS sets but obviously leaves 2 car instead of 3.

Fresh out the box 197037 failed outside Cardiff too and had to be dragged into the station early this morning before getting a hand back to Chester.

 

[Jez]

Manchesters appear to be 4 car almost as regularly as 5 cars now. Several of the 3 car sets appear to now be out of use. They've been replaced by the recent influx of ERTMS sets but obviously leaves 2 car instead of 3.

Fresh out the box 197037 failed outside Cardiff too and had to be dragged into the station early this morning before getting a hand back to Chester.

Yes i noticed quite a few of the 3 cars were out of use. At least 4 cars on the Manchesters is better than a single unit. The only thing i find with the 2 car units is the carriage which has the disabled toilet and storage cupboard, there are significantly less seats in this carriage, its really noticeable how much less there is compared to the other carriage. So when its formed of a 5 car that extra carriage full of seats (aside from the small toilet) makes a huge difference. But overall 4 cars seem to cope okay most of the time.

I notice 197037 has been in service attached to another unit. Makes me wonder how many of them are kept in service with the help of another unit.

 

[MickeyN]

Does anyone know the numbers of the units in Crewe South Yard please?

 

[SeaKing]

Manchesters appear to be 4 car almost as regularly as 5 cars now. Several of the 3 car sets appear to now be out of use. They've been replaced by the recent influx of ERTMS sets but obviously leaves 2 car instead of 3.

Fresh out the box 197037 failed outside Cardiff too and had to be dragged into the station early this morning before getting a hand back to Chester.

197037 back out on Bidston's today

 

[sd0733]

197037 back out on Bidston's today

Can't have been anything too major then.

 

[Daniel Boone]

Is anyone aware whether TFW intend to allow seat reservations once the entire fleet is in service?

 

[Peter Sarf]

I make it that ten of the ETCS 197s are currently in use. These are :-

197022,
197024,
197026 ?,
197027,
197031,
197033,
197034,
197035,
197036 &
197037

But 197026 seems to have not been out all week when I check on RTT. Has it gone out of use ?.

 

[Caaardiff]

A 3 car hit a cow the other day, and i think a few 2 cars got damaged after hitting trees. Not the fault of CAF or TFW, but they do seem to take a lot longer to get back into service than the 15x fleet. Some of them have been parked up for days at Chester and not moved. May be a parts issue?
Weren't there some 3 cars stored because of suspension crack issues? Those covered by the ETCS sets.

 

[wythallpaul]

I make it that ten of the ETCS 197s are currently in use. These are :-

197022,
197024,
197026 ?,
197027,
197031,
197033,
197034,
197035,
197036 &
197037

But 197026 seems to have not been out all week when I check on RTT. Has it gone out of use ?.

197026 was on 1D11 last Saturday Morning 4th October 2025.

Clarification:- 1D11 0709 Birmingham International (BHI) to Rhyl (RHL).
Terminated at Chester (CTR) 56 Minutes late. This Journey was made during Adverse Weather. I have not noticed it on RTT since. It may have Received some damage during this Journey.

Edited to provide Clarification.

 

[MP393]

197026 was on 1D11 last Saturday Morning 4th October 2025.

Clarification:- 1D11 0709 Birmingham International (BHI) to Rhyl (RHL).
Terminated at Chester (CTR) 56 Minutes late. This Journey was made during Adverse Weather. I have not noticed it on RTT since. It may have Received some damage during this Journey.

Edited to provide Clarification.

197026 did hit a tree in the Ruabon area on 1D11 and sustained some damage to the front end, for which it’s been out of service for.

 

[Peter Sarf]

197026 was on 1D11 last Saturday Morning 4th October 2025.

Clarification:- 1D11 0709 Birmingham International (BHI) to Rhyl (RHL).
Terminated at Chester (CTR) 56 Minutes late. This Journey was made during Adverse Weather. I have not noticed it on RTT since. It may have Received some damage during this Journey.

Edited to provide Clarification.

+

197026 did hit a tree in the Ruabon area on 1D11 and sustained some damage to the front end, for which it’s been out of service for.

Thankyou both for your replies, pesky trees then.

A bit more than lineside vegetation rash then !.
Lets hope the 197 front end is not a weaker/more-vulnerable area than on older units as seems to be the case with the Mk3 DVTs ?.

 

[158822]

I was on a 197 197034 yesterday and it kept making strange cracking noises. Has anyone else noticed this? I didn’t record the noise.

 

[tfw756rider]

I was on a 197 197034 yesterday and it kept making strange cracking noises. Has anyone else noticed this? I didn’t record the noise.

Can you be more specific with what the strange cracking noises are / where they're coming from?

 

[158822]

From where I was sat at the front the sound was coming from the lower right side, either under the floor or close to it. It sounded like some hard plastic was cracking.

 

[tfw756rider]

From where I was sat at the front the sound was coming from the lower right side, either under the floor or close to it. It sounded like some hard plastic was cracking.

That's a new one on me. I'm not sure what that would be without hearing it.

 

[WirralLine]

I was on 197111 earlier which had an engine isolated and no working heating in the engine-less coach. Also stunk of diesel and took an age to get going from stations.

 

[tfw756rider]

I was on 197111 earlier which had an engine isolated and no working heating in the engine-less coach. Also stunk of diesel and took an age to get going from stations.

It's really not good that this new fleet of trains is having more issues than it should. Surely Transport for Wales Rail and CAF are going to have to work together at some point to properly sort them out? They've got to last for multiple decades.

 

[158822]

If it’s cheaper to pay some fines and move on instead of fixing the trains then that is probably what will happen.

 

[craigybagel]

I was on 197111 earlier which had an engine isolated and no working heating in the engine-less coach. Also stunk of diesel and took an age to get going from stations.

That's always an issue on 197s with an engine isolated - the holding brake isn't released until the computer detects there is enough power coming from the engines to prevent the unit rolling back, and that takes a while if there's an engine isolated. As far as I know this seems to be the norm on all new trains these days; drivers are no longer trusted to have full control of the brakes themselves.

On the plus side, a 3 car with an engine out still performs pretty well, and will keep to time far better than a 175 with an engine out would.