CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Jez]

Looks like normal service has more or less resumed today after a quick look at RTT. The only services I can see that are not 197 between Cardiff and Swansea is the booked MK4 working 1630 Manchester plus the 0622 Cardiff to Pembroke Dock which is a 150. Every service in the other direction between Swansea and Cardiff is a 197.

So one of the 3 Pembroke diagrams is a 150 but that isnt too bad considering until recently it was 100% Sprinters on that route. So likely to see a 150 going back to Cardiff on a service tomorrow I assume to swap the 150 back.

There appears to be better allocation of 3 cars on the Manchesters as well and even a few 4 cars which I believe are booked now e.g. the 0910 Milford to Manchester. The 0914 Swanline is also formed of 4 carriages. I think one set goes onto the Fishguard from Swansea around 11.00. Still it must have been a nice surprise for Swanliners who usually get 2 carriages.

@Lurcheroo I noticed it said to report the air con on X/Twitter. I do use it occasionally. They usually advise passengers to inform the train crew about such things but sometimes they said they will get in touch with the conductor. So its certainly worth reporting I think.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Looks like normal service has more or less resumed today after a quick look at RTT. The only services I can see that are not 197 between Cardiff and Swansea is the booked MK4 working 1630 Manchester plus the 0622 Cardiff to Pembroke Dock which is a 150. Every service in the other direction between Swansea and Cardiff is a 197.

So one of the 3 Pembroke diagrams is a 150 but that isnt too bad considering until recently it was 100% Sprinters on that route. So likely to see a 150 going back to Cardiff on a service tomorrow I assume to swap the 150 back.

There appears to be better allocation of 3 cars on the Manchesters as well and even a few 4 cars which I believe are booked now e.g. the 0910 Milford to Manchester. The 0914 Swanline is also formed of 4 carriages. I think one set goes onto the Fishguard from Swansea around 11.00. Still it must have been a nice surprise for Swanliners who usually get 2 carriages.

@Lurcheroo I noticed it said to report the air con on X/Twitter. I do use it occasionally. They usually advise passengers to inform the train crew about such things but sometimes they said they will get in touch with the conductor. So its certainly worth reporting I think.

158819 on one of the Chester to Liverpool diagrams today…

 

[rich.davies]

Yep, they do, and they do sometimes work. When it’s a warm day and working the saloon is quite pleasant. The best it can ever do is 6°C below the outside temp so once it gets really warm out, even the saloon will feel warm with the AC going but it’s still better than opening the windows.
Drivers also get AC on 158’s but guards don’t and the back cab seems to get a lot hotter than the saloon.


Yeah that does happen a bit to be fair.


I’d have done the same and just sat on the available seat haha.
Yeah of course, it’s a bit weird when there’s plenty of airline seat bays available and someone sits next to you in an airline seat though!
But once it gets busy, you have to just accept that you have to sit next to someone.


Just looked, it seems to just ask you to send it to them on X (twitter), which I don’t really use.


Not totally sure what’s gone on. I know a HOW was cancelled so possible getting units in the right place.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jul 2024 ==

Looks like the first day of fault free mileage accumulation on the Cambrian.
looks like to comes from Crewe, heads to Dovey junction, shuttles back to Welshpool then back to Dovey junction and then goes back to Crewe again.

Realtime Trains | 3Q51 0614 Crewe South Yard to Shrewsbury | 02/07/2024

Real-time train running information for 3Q51 0614 departure from Crewe South Yard to Shrewsbury on 02/07/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Looks like it didn't make it past Shrewsbury due to signalling issues

 

[Jez]

158819 on one of the Chester to Liverpool diagrams today…

Ah, thanks. I hadn't checked what was happening in the North..

I see there are 2 x 3 car 197s on Ebbw Vale (the other diagram is a 150) and 1 x 3 car on Maesteg. The other Maestegs are mixture of 2 car 197s, a pair of 153s and a 150.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Looks like it didn't make it past Shrewsbury due to signalling issues

Failed to transition to Level 2 and then went back to Shrewsbury.

 

[vicbury]

@Lurcheroo I noticed it said to report the air con on X/Twitter. I do use it occasionally. They usually advise passengers to inform the train crew about such things but sometimes they said they will get in touch with the conductor. So its certainly worth reporting I think.

How smart is the software on the 197s i.e. will the train automatically report such faults to the depot?

 

[Lurcheroo]

How smart is the software on the 197s i.e. will the train automatically report such faults to the depot?

I think they will get notifications about certain things but train crew are still expected to report it.

 

[Christian Schm]

I think they will get notifications about certain things but train crew are still expected to report it.

Surely if the train can report automatically, then that the train has done so is fed back to the crew, so they know that they can save themselves a job? Sounds like a wasted effort if they have to do it no matter if it was done already?

 

[craigybagel]

Both TfW maintenance staff and CAF are able to monitor pretty much every aspect of the units in real time - but I'm not sure if they get sent warnings about developing issues automatically. Any time I've spoken to them about a problem, they've not known about it until I've made them aware.

 

[MP393]

How smart is the software on the 197s i.e. will the train automatically report such faults to the depot?

Maintenance can “log in” remotely and see faults on the TMS of each unit but they won’t tend too until prompted to by train-crew reporting a fault, etc. So in theory self reporting faults probably could be set up, but for now it’s still responsibility of the crew to report faults.

 

[Anonymous10]

Maintenance can “log in” remotely and see faults on the TMS of each unit but they won’t tend too until prompted to by train-crew reporting a fault, etc. So in theory self reporting faults probably could be set up, but for now it’s still responsibility of the crew to report faults.

Of course a fault with a system like that could be a fault reporting a fault which isn't actually a fault

 

[WirralLine]

I have had faults with a 197 before where maintenance have advised me of things to reset/look at (which didn't help) so they then contacted CAF who were able to look at the unit remotely from a computer - pretty impressive. As soon as CAF did so the fault either fixed itself - I'm not sure if it did but its as if CAF were able to reset a system or something remotely from their computer!

 

[Krokodil]

How smart is the software on the 197s i.e. will the train automatically report such faults to the depot?

The unit doesn't usually record HVAC issues as a fault. It just seems to think that 28 degrees is a perfectly normal temperature. Different if something has actually tripped.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Both TfW maintenance staff and CAF are able to monitor pretty much every aspect of the units in real time - but I'm not sure if they get sent warnings about developing issues automatically. Any time I've spoken to them about a problem, they've not known about it until I've made them aware.

Ahh yes, that sounds much more like it. It’s been over 6 months since I’ve touched one now. And based on todays events, doesn’t look like likely I will anytime soon either haha!

 

[childwallblues]

158819 on one of the Chester to Liverpool diagrams today…

Replaced 197111 which was obviously required elsewhere.
Todays allocation is 197108 and 197045 and the same could happen today.

 

[craigybagel]

Ahh yes, that sounds much more like it. It’s been over 6 months since I’ve touched one now. And based on todays events, doesn’t look like likely I will anytime soon either haha!

Don't worry, when the time comes you'll get plenty of chances to see how it all works with support from maintenance and CAF

 

[Krokodil]

Don't worry, when the time comes you'll get plenty of chances to see how it all works with support from maintenance and CAF

Last thing I heard was 2026. At the earliest.

 

[Jez]

A quick question that might well have been answered here before regarding the Heart of Wales Line, has a 197 ever been on that line ? Im quite sure they havent but just wanted to clarify with someone who would know for definate. Im talking about ECS movements obviously not passenger service.

Im aware the long term plan is to continue using the 153s on HOWL but I assume 197s will be cleared eventually like the 175s were and then they have the scope to use them if they wish.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Don't worry, when the time comes you'll get plenty of chances to see how it all works with support from maintenance and CAF

Haha no doubt!
024 has succeeded in getting past the transition point and onto the Cambrian today so that’s a start haha.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jul 2024 ==

Last thing I heard was 2026. At the earliest.

I’ve heard everything from end of this year all the way up to 2028. I could see mid next year being a reasonable target. But only time will tell.

 

[Meole]

197024 out testing on the Cambrian to Dyfi Jn today, diagram for tomorrow as well.

 

[Krokodil]

Did it make it this time then?

 

[Nick Ashwell]

Maintenance can “log in” remotely and see faults on the TMS of each unit but they won’t tend too until prompted to by train-crew reporting a fault, etc. So in theory self reporting faults probably could be set up, but for now it’s still responsibility of the crew to report faults.

Self reporting is only a guide, anyone who deals with tech wants correlation of a reporting system.

Staff and the train reporting the same issue would be that correlation and it would them be looked into more deeply. Often one or the other will be logged and then ignored by technicians

 

[Lurcheroo]

Did it make it this time then?

Yep, and possibly most importantly, has successfully proven that they can run along side the 158’s which was unknown as to wether or not it would be possible.
If not then it would have made mileage accumulation and crew training difficult as there would only have been a 4 hour window each night.
Apparently 031 is going to be tried again tomorrow.
024 had run on the Cambrian previously for testing and clearance so will be interesting to see if 031 has the same issue again

 

[sansyy]

Replaced 197111 which was obviously required elsewhere.
Todays allocation is 197108 and 197045 and the same could happen today.

Can't complain when a 158 is knocking about might be a sprinter but still pleasant compared to a 150.

 

[Diedinium]

I've had my first belated ride on a 197 a few days ago, 197 115 from Piccadilly to Crewe, sitting in the permanently(?) declassified first section and it was exquisite. I prefer the dimmer ambience in the 196s but the seating both in the first and standard is, dare I say it, above the FISA lean seating in the GA Stadlers and the moquette is softer than the seating used in the IETs. The ride felt mostly smooth besides a hard jolt passing Holmes Chapel/Sandbach area. A worthy successor to the *edit 175* as long as they don't run any shorter than 3 coaches. I saw a 2 car earlier on in the day and can't imagine how cozy it would have been.

Lmao as a driver I know exactly what jolt you mean at Sandbach, I always slow down below linespeed there to minimise it... not all drivers do though, at 90mph it's quite the rock.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2024 ==

A quick question that might well have been answered here before regarding the Heart of Wales Line, has a 197 ever been on that line ? Im quite sure they havent but just wanted to clarify with someone who would know for definate. Im talking about ECS movements obviously not passenger service.

Im aware the long term plan is to continue using the 153s on HOWL but I assume 197s will be cleared eventually like the 175s were and then they have the scope to use them if they wish.

No 197s have ran down the HoW yet as far as I'm aware, they are planning to do proving runs at some point but even then it'd only be so they can run ECS movements down there if the mainline is closed in order to get the 197s between the north/south for maintenance purposes. I can't remember which document it was but one of the long term plans talked about using 197s on the HoW from 2030 onwards as the 197s are cascaded due to electrification of more areas of the network. So basically, they're not going to be used there anytime soon so long as the 153s can be kept running.

They have been doing some stuff to prepare the line for 197 gauge clearance though, there were some notices about removing platform coping stones at certain stations a while ago.

Also at the moment if a 197 ran down the HoW it would have no paint left at the other end due to certain parts of the line being a 153 shaped hole through the trees

 

[Driver TLST]

As are pretty much all the North routes.
Holyhead/Llandudno to the airport, Blaenau, Wrexham to Bidston, Chester Crewe, Chester liverpool and they were in Crewe to Shrewsbury but not sure if the shuttle is back entirely to 153’s.
There’s just a general lack of 197’s as they’re out for whatever reason.
Decisions are made with what units are available to cover what services in mind. If there’s a spare 150 in Canton and nothing at Chester then they’ll steal a 197 from there and use that.
Vice versus, if nothings available at Canton but a158 available at Chester then they’ll do it that way.
There’s of course plenty of other considerations such is unit mileage, exams, where it needs to end up that night, fuel, road transport, station staffing number of passengers to be left stranded, other operators that can take passengers to their destinations and probably plenty more I’ve not thought of.
Not really much reason to assume they’re ‘in the south’ anymore than would be expected.
There’s a Rhetoric about TFW only caring about the south and it’s just bonkers, coming from someone who works and lives in the North.

I'm not sure if this is the right thread, but I am trying to understand how ERTMS SA works with guards and the interaction with Driver? Is there any benefit to the guards that was not there in legacy signalling?

 

[Lurcheroo]

I'm not sure if this is the right thread, but I am trying to understand how ERTMS SA works with guards and the interaction with Driver? Is there any benefit to the guards that was not there in legacy signalling?

It’s probably not the right thread but there are 197’s fitted with it so we will stretch it haha.

The Method of work that we use, and this is on a single line where the system has replaced token signalling, is that at designated stations which are passing points / the old token exchange points or terminus stations such as Welshpool, Newtown, Aberystwyth where the guard would traditionally have to check a signal for a proceed aspect, then once the driver has a Movement Authority (MA) displayed on the in-cab display then they give ‘2’ on the buzzer and the guard can only dispatch once they have received this.

Having worked both sides, I can’t see any advantage for the guard. You have to be listening out for the buzzer which when busy or you have to do something else can be Easily missed. We are taught that if you’re unsure to check with the driver and no driver I know would take issue it. But the problem comes when you don’t realise you’ve not had 2 or that you think you’ve had it but perhaps that was the last stop. So if you do start to Make a mistake there is no glaring red signal that might just cause you Stop what you’re doing. Or even as part of the dispatch procedure under conventional signalling I was taught that once you’ve closed the doors always double check the starting signal just before you get back on the train (and has saved me once) which you also can’t do under ERTMS.

Among train crew it is generally regarded as not ideal but not really much other choice.

And I don’t believe there is any planned change for this MOW when the 197’s come into use.

 

[Jez]

Lmao as a driver I know exactly what jolt you mean at Sandbach, I always slow down below linespeed there to minimise it... not all drivers do though, at 90mph it's quite the rock.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2024 ==


No 197s have ran down the HoW yet as far as I'm aware, they are planning to do proving runs at some point but even then it'd only be so they can run ECS movements down there if the mainline is closed in order to get the 197s between the north/south for maintenance purposes. I can't remember which document it was but one of the long term plans talked about using 197s on the HoW from 2030 onwards as the 197s are cascaded due to electrification of more areas of the network. So basically, they're not going to be used there anytime soon so long as the 153s can be kept running.

They have been doing some stuff to prepare the line for 197 gauge clearance though, there were some notices about removing platform coping stones at certain stations a while ago.

Also at the moment if a 197 ran down the HoW it would have no paint left at the other end due to certain parts of the line being a 153 shaped hole through the trees

Thank you for the reply. I had a feeling one hadnt been down the HOWL.

Not including the Cambrian/Birmingham routes which we know will come later due to the sub fleet of ERTMS units, the only other places waiting to be cleared for 197s are HOWL, VOG and Swansea District Line. And the first two will have no booked work so not such a priority im guessing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2024 ==

Can't complain when a 158 is knocking about might be a sprinter but still pleasant compared to a 150.

Agreed. I've always liked the 158s. Definately a massive upgrade on a 150 or 153.

I see today we have a 158 covering a Maesteg diagram and there is 1 x 150 on both Maesteg and Ebbw Vale but all others are 197s on those routes.

 

[craigybagel]

Yep, and possibly most importantly, has successfully proven that they can run along side the 158’s which was unknown as to wether or not it would be possible.
If not then it would have made mileage accumulation and crew training difficult as there would only have been a 4 hour window each night.
Apparently 031 is going to be tried again tomorrow.
024 had run on the Cambrian previously for testing and clearance so will be interesting to see if 031 has the same issue again

As far as I know, the issue 031 had was a fail to transition to ERTMS, which is hardly a rare scenario on the 158 fleet as well.

Lmao as a driver I know exactly what jolt you mean at Sandbach, I always slow down below linespeed there to minimise it... not all drivers do though, at 90mph it's quite the rock.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2024 ==

Even more fun on a 67! I do think that bump is getting worse, this is probably not helped by the way the trains we drive over it now are rather less forgiving of such things than the 175s were.

It’s probably not the right thread but there are 197’s fitted with it so we will stretch it haha.

The Method of work that we use, and this is on a single line where the system has replaced token signalling, is that at designated stations which are passing points / the old token exchange points or terminus stations such as Welshpool, Newtown, Aberystwyth where the guard would traditionally have to check a signal for a proceed aspect, then once the driver has a Movement Authority (MA) displayed on the in-cab display then they give ‘2’ on the buzzer and the guard can only dispatch once they have received this.

Having worked both sides, I can’t see any advantage for the guard. You have to be listening out for the buzzer which when busy or you have to do something else can be Easily missed. We are taught that if you’re unsure to check with the driver and no driver I know would take issue it. But the problem comes when you don’t realise you’ve not had 2 or that you think you’ve had it but perhaps that was the last stop. So if you do start to Make a mistake there is no glaring red signal that might just cause you Stop what you’re doing. Or even as part of the dispatch procedure under conventional signalling I was taught that once you’ve closed the doors always double check the starting signal just before you get back on the train (and has saved me once) which you also can’t do under ERTMS.

Among train crew it is generally regarded as not ideal but not really much other choice.

And I don’t believe there is any planned change for this MOW when the 197’s come into use.

I wonder if they'll have to modify the buzzer on the 197s. At the moment they only sound at a panel the guard is keyed into - they don't even sound in the back cab unless the guard has their key in one of the panels there. Plus it's a much less distinguishable beep compared to the rough buzz you get on 158s. I think it's going to make the Cambrian method of working a lot more challenging.

 

[Caleb2010]

Do we know when the Cambrian is likely to go 197?

I know a couple of units have been to Pwllheli but how far along are the plans for it to go over to CAF operation!