CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[robert thomas]

To add to the confusion over classes of travel, I received a marketing e-mail from TFW on Monday which contained the following





So there we go. They seem to be doing a good job of confusing the passengers, and First Class fares are not bookable on their Manchester trains...

I travelled on 197118 in the posh bit from Stockport to Manchester the other day. There was a ticket check and my TfGM bus pass was not questioned.

There is a wide range of first class fares available, including advance, for the Marches Line from booking offices and online

 

[BillStampy]

Another swap unfortunately, a single car 153 in place for 197105, I'm unsure whats wrong.

 

[GWVillager]

So there we go. They seem to be doing a good job of confusing the passengers, and First Class fares are not bookable on their Manchester trains...

Yes they are? There are plenty of Mk4s to Manchester, and first class tickets are sold for them.

 

[Northerngirl]

If they really think that the 197 & mk4 1st class are different enough to not be priced the same, then they need to have some idea when the mk4s will actually run, at the moment it's so overcomplicated trying to get a comfortable seat

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

197105 was removed from Maestegs at Cardiff Central around 4:30pm due to train fault. The (delayed) 16:17 service went forward with a single 153.

197111 was assigned to a driver who cannot drive 197s yet, but fortunately they were able to swap duties so that a driver who does could take it forward on the 1816 at Cardiff Central to Maesteg. The guard is absolutely lovely. Full marks to her for friendly, warm customer service. What an asset to TfW.

 

[BenBracken]

Took a spin on the HoWL yesterday. Are there any plans at all to run 197s on that line? Surely if TfW want shot of 15x units they will have to do something at some point in the future to modernise? I have somewhere seen a photo of a 175 in service on the HoWL, so will the 197s be cleared for use as well?

 

[AdamWW]

Took a spin on the HoWL yesterday. Are there any plans at all to run 197s on that line? Surely if TfW want shot of 15x units they will have to do something at some point in the future to modernise? I have somewhere seen a photo of a 175 in service on the HoWL, so will the 197s be cleared for use as well?

I believe the plan is to retain 153s for the time being for that route.

 

[BillStampy]

197105 was removed from Maestegs at Cardiff Central around 4:30pm due to train fault. The (delayed) 16:17 service went forward with a single 153.

197111 was assigned to a driver who cannot drive 197s yet, but fortunately they were able to swap duties so that a driver who does could take it forward on the 1816 at Cardiff Central to Maesteg. The guard is absolutely lovely. Full marks to her for friendly, warm customer service. What an asset to TfW.

Hopefully 111 will be able to replace that single 153 later. Unless it does go back to Canton as currently planned, I'd allow it do go to Pengam and go back to Cardiff to replace a SINGLE 153. But we'll have to wait an see, as I don't think we want a single 153 doing the earliest Cheltenham start tomorrow.

 

[Jez]

Took a spin on the HoWL yesterday. Are there any plans at all to run 197s on that line? Surely if TfW want shot of 15x units they will have to do something at some point in the future to modernise? I have somewhere seen a photo of a 175 in service on the HoWL, so will the 197s be cleared for use as well?

The HOWL line is planned to be pairs of 153s long term. However I would imagine they will clear the line for 197s eventually like they did for the 175s but it wont be a huge priority. I would say clearing the Vale of Glamorgan, Pembroke Dock and Ebbw Vale is more urgent.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Feb 2024 ==

Nope, it wasn’t the superior performance, but probably the announcement saying “This train will now call at Newport, Hereford and Shrewsbury only.”

The 197s do keep to time very well. Yesterday i travelled from Port Talbot to Manchester on a 197 (0551 from Port Talbot) and particularly from Shrewsbury onwards I noticed every station was early. Looking at RTT it was 4 minutes early at Shrewsbury, 3 minutes at Wem, 6 minutes ar Crewe and 5 minutes at Wilmslow. Still the departure at 0635 from Cardiff has a lot of padding - Cardiff-Manchester can be done in 3 hours 20 minutes usually. I suppose with this being a MK4 service the timing has to be a bit more generous but it highlights just how fantastic the 197s are.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

The HOWL line is planned to be pairs of 153s long term. However I would imagine they will clear the line for 197s eventually like they did for the 175s but it wont be a huge priority. I would say clearing the Vale of Glamorgan, Pembroke Dock and Ebbw Vale is more urgent.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Feb 2024 ==


The 197s do keep to time very well. Yesterday i travelled from Port Talbot to Manchester on a 197 (0551 from Port Talbot) and particularly from Shrewsbury onwards I noticed every station was early. Looking at RTT it was 4 minutes early at Shrewsbury, 3 minutes at Wem, 6 minutes ar Crewe and 5 minutes at Wilmslow. Still the departure at 0635 from Cardiff has a lot of padding - Cardiff-Manchester can be done in 3 hours 20 minutes usually. I suppose with this being a MK4 service the timing has to be a bit more generous but it highlights just how fantastic the 197s are.

I also suspect with timings like that, the driver may have had it in 'super' mode. Tends to happen semi regularly now.

 

[craigybagel]

The HOWL line is planned to be pairs of 153s long term. However I would imagine they will clear the line for 197s eventually like they did for the 175s but it wont be a huge priority. I would say clearing the Vale of Glamorgan, Pembroke Dock and Ebbw Vale is more urgent.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Feb 2024 ==


The 197s do keep to time very well. Yesterday i travelled from Port Talbot to Manchester on a 197 (0551 from Port Talbot) and particularly from Shrewsbury onwards I noticed every station was early. Looking at RTT it was 4 minutes early at Shrewsbury, 3 minutes at Wem, 6 minutes ar Crewe and 5 minutes at Wilmslow. Still the departure at 0635 from Cardiff has a lot of padding - Cardiff-Manchester can be done in 3 hours 20 minutes usually. I suppose with this being a MK4 service the timing has to be a bit more generous but it highlights just how fantastic the 197s are.

I also suspect with timings like that, the driver may have had it in 'super' mode. Tends to happen semi regularly now.

Even in Eco mode, a 197 will trounce 67 timings, especially between Ludlow and Crewe where the MU speeds really hold the 67s back. For normal MU timings, ECO mode will keep to time easily enough, and in superpower you can catch up delays.

 

[Diedinium]

The 197s do keep to time very well. Yesterday i travelled from Port Talbot to Manchester on a 197 (0551 from Port Talbot) and particularly from Shrewsbury onwards I noticed every station was early. Looking at RTT it was 4 minutes early at Shrewsbury, 3 minutes at Wem, 6 minutes ar Crewe and 5 minutes at Wilmslow. Still the departure at 0635 from Cardiff has a lot of padding - Cardiff-Manchester can be done in 3 hours 20 minutes usually. I suppose with this being a MK4 service the timing has to be a bit more generous but it highlights just how fantastic the 197s are.

To get those times the driver probably had put the train into "Super" mode, which changes when the gears shift to help the train accelerate quicker (like ragging your car in second gear for longer...). A lot of drivers are enabling it at the moment as there's no current guidance/rules on when it should be used yet.

The only real consequence is it does tend to eat through the AdBlue a lot quicker. These early arrivals show how it's unnecessary to use it really, even in "Eco" or "Normal" mode it's more than enough to maintain the current timetables.

 

[ValleyLines142]

197105, 197111 and 197019 are all on Cheltenham Maesteg today, with 158834 and a peak pair of 153s. Not a single 150 in sight!

Indeed so!! Had great fun dispatching them this morning!!

 

[craigybagel]

To get those times the driver probably had put the train into "Super" mode, which changes when the gears shift to help the train accelerate quicker (like ragging your car in second gear for longer...). A lot of drivers are enabling it at the moment as there's no current guidance/rules on when it should be used yet.

The only real consequence is it does tend to eat through the AdBlue a lot quicker. These early arrivals show how it's unnecessary to use it really, even in "Eco" or "Normal" mode it's more than enough to maintain the current timetables.

That service is timed for a loco, and has a lot of padding on top. Looking at where most of the time was made up (North of Ludlow), I reckon those timings are perfectly achievable in Eco mode. Especially as it was a 3 car set, and like the 175s before them the 3 cars are noticeably quicker off the mark.

 

[Lurcheroo]

then they need to have some idea when the mk4s will actually run, at the moment it's so overcomplicated trying to get a comfortable seat

There are 5 MK4 diagrams a day. It’s incredibly unlikely to see a MK4 on a service that isn’t on one of those diagrams as only Crewe and Cardiff drivers sign the class 67’s and Manchester - Cardiff. Holyhead also sign the 67’s for the 1 service a day to and from holyhead, but do not sign any of Manchester - Cardiff.

SD has said many a times on the MK4 thread that it has been planned that 1 of those diagrams are not to be a MK4 service whilst the 5 coach addition programme is underway.
Reliability does seemed to have improved in the last few months with many days seeing all 4 diagrams covered with MK4’s.

Of course if a set develops a fault then it has to be substituted and with such a limited MK4 fleet it’s Almost certainly going to have be a unit replacement unfortunately.

 

[Bikeman78]

Even in Eco mode, a 197 will trounce 67 timings, especially between Ludlow and Crewe where the MU speeds really hold the 67s back. For normal MU timings, ECO mode will keep to time easily enough, and in superpower you can catch up delays.

In my experience, a 150 can beat the loco timings. Recently I saw a pair of them on 1W61 arrive at Shrewsbury six minutes before departure. Granted it's booked four minutes there but still impressive.

 

[craigybagel]

In my experience, a 150 can beat the loco timings. Recently I saw a pair of them on 1W61 arrive at Shrewsbury six minutes before departure. Granted it's booked four minutes there but still impressive.

Between the dwell times and the poor acceleration at low speeds for the latter, a 150 will easily match 67 for most of the Cardiff - Manchester run. The only place the 150 will struggle is between Crewe and Wilmslow where the 67s 110mph ability will trump anything (but there's enough padding on there to keep to time even at 75mph), and on the big climb out of Abergavenny going north.

 

[BillStampy]

Another day of 197 diagrams on Maesteg - Cheltenham today! All trains coming out of Canton to join are 197s. Minus the 153 going solo on the Cheltenham early start, it's good! With a 197 ending up at Gloucester tonight, hopefully we'll have full 197 diagrams tomorrow

 

[childwallblues]

150217 is on the Chester-Liverpool service today with 197044.

 

[Jez]

Another day of 197 diagrams on Maesteg - Cheltenham today! All trains coming out of Canton to join are 197s. Minus the 153 going solo on the Cheltenham early start, it's good! With a 197 ending up at Gloucester tonight, hopefully we'll have full 197 diagrams tomorrow

Good to see TFW are so confident about the 197s that so many can be allocated to Maesteg-Cheltenham. Availability must have improved massively and having 118 and 120 in service helps.

 

[Topological]

There is a wide range of first class fares available, including advance, for the Marches Line from booking offices and online

No first class from Swansea to Manchester that I know of.

The 05:32 is booked for Mk4, but that is the diagram that is currently not Mk4 and is booked for standard class only at the moment. 2 Car 197 today.

But let's not let that get in the way of a correct criticism of TfW marketing.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Another day of 197 diagrams on Maesteg - Cheltenham today! All trains coming out of Canton to join are 197s. Minus the 153 going solo on the Cheltenham early start, it's good! With a 197 ending up at Gloucester tonight, hopefully we'll have full 197 diagrams tomorrow

Good to see TFW are so confident about the 197s that so many can be allocated to Maesteg-Cheltenham. Availability must have improved massively and having 118 and 120 in service helps.

Looks like two 150s are now on the route

 

[robert thomas]

No first class from Swansea to Manchester that I know of.

The 05:32 is booked for Mk4, but that is the diagram that is currently not Mk4 and is booked for standard class only at the moment. 2 Car 197 today.

But let's not let that get in the way of a correct criticism of TfW marketing.

There is certainly a Neath-Manchester first class fare which I often use so there must be one from Swansea

 

[Topological]

There is certainly a Neath-Manchester first class fare which I often use so there must be one from Swansea

Not on TfW I presume.

The fact that there has always been a fare that works via Bristol Parkway is neither here nor there.

Unless you think it is kind of TfW to promote GWR in this way.

I suspect we are all talking about the fact that TfW are trying to upsell their own first class product, but that they do not actually offer that product on the routes in their advertising.

 

[AJDesiro]

No first class from Swansea to Manchester that I know of.

The 05:32 is booked for Mk4, but that is the diagram that is currently not Mk4 and is booked for standard class only at the moment. 2 Car 197 today.

But let's not let that get in the way of a correct criticism of TfW marketing.

There's a few flexible and advance first class fares between Swansea and Manchester set by TfW. £147.10 Anytime Day Single 1st and £165.10 Off Peak Day Return 1st.

 

[Topological]

There's a few flexible and advance first class fares between Swansea and Manchester set by TfW. £147.10 Anytime Day Single 1st and £165.10 Off Peak Day Return 1st.

I appreciate people want to defend TfW.

However, it remains true that TfW do not provide first class on any services that depart from Swansea today, or any other day at the moment.

 

[Jez]

Looks like two 150s are now on the route

I had a feeling the 150s wouldnt go quietly from this route! Better on there than the Marches though

 

[AJDesiro]

I appreciate people want to defend TfW.

However, it remains true that TfW do not provide first class on any services that depart from Swansea today, or any other day at the moment.

I'm not trying to defend TfW, I hate the service they're providing around Birmingham at the moment, especially with how rude some of the guards can be.

People can get a refund if a service is timetabled to have first class and such accomodation is not provided.

 

[Topological]

I'm not trying to defend TfW, I hate the service they're providing around Birmingham at the moment, especially with how rude some of the guards can be.

People can get a refund if a service is timetabled to have first class and such accomodation is not provided.

Which is why I am stressing that there is not even any timetabled TfW first class between Swansea and Manchester.

If I bought a first-class ticket I would be planning via Birmingham, but then I am more interested in the service than the Mk4s that may, or may not, be running that day. I would also not want the hassle of having to refund the difference because TfW had yet again sent a too-short standard class-only unit.

 

[AJDesiro]

Which is why I am stressing that there is not even any timetabled TfW first class between Swansea and Manchester.

If I bought a first-class ticket I would be planning via Birmingham, but then I am more interested in the service than the Mk4s that may, or may not, be running that day. I would also not want the hassle of having to refund the difference because TfW had yet again sent a too-short standard class-only unit.

The 05:32 SWA-MAN and 16:30 MAN-SWA have it, though it's not great to only have 1tpd in either direction.