CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Yes it does and no it’s not unfortunately. I double checked they didn’t meant 2024 and was assured that 2025 was the latest given plan, as of yesterday.

Ive been told the same. As I understand it its due to the plan being effectively an overnight change, 158s finish one day and the 197s start the next (it'll be slightly more complex than that!) So everything, training, maintenance etc will have to be 100% ready for the service introduction.

Oh dear. A full year’s delay is not insignificant.

 

[Caaardiff]

I'm guessing all the 197s will be delivered well before then anyway, so could that mean they are used to boost capacity elsewhere in the network until the cambrian changeover?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I'm guessing all the 197s will be delivered well before then anyway, so could that mean they are used to boost capacity elsewhere in the network until the cambrian changeover?

Maybe they should truncate Cambrian services at Shrewsbury from Dec 24, and allow Holyhead Birmingham and the second two-hourly Shrewsbury Birmingham service to go over to 197. I suppose if the 158s are working well and aren’t needed elsewhere though, that it doesn’t make much sense to split a service and prevent 197 strengthening elsewhere just for the sake of Birmingham getting the new trains.

 

[sd0733]

Maybe they should truncate Cambrian services at Shrewsbury from Dec 24, and allow Holyhead Birmingham and the second two-hourly Shrewsbury Birmingham service to go over to 197. I suppose if the 158s are working well and aren’t needed elsewhere though, that it doesn’t make much sense to split a service and prevent 197 strengthening elsewhere just for the sake of Birmingham getting the new trains.

Not sure what it will be but there's been talk of doing a few amendments to the timetable In the meantime to effectively restrict the 158s to Birmingham-Cambrian work until then. Things change so much though, it's difficult to know what the latest plans are. I'm sure whatever it is Will officially be said once it's known.

 

[Anonymous10]

As well as cost I also heard that it was to avoid the boot up time of the software on the DMI on turnaround. Takes a good 4 or 5 minutes to get fully setup on ERTMS, little quicker if your in unfitted mode, but still a lot longer than a non-ertms unit.

On the subject of ERTMS units, I have heard today that there is ERTMS testing booked on the Cambrian for 9th of March with proving runs in April/May. Entry into service on the Cambrian is dated for December 2025.

Also previously it had been reported that Llanbedr, Tygwyn and Abererch (all short platforms with level crossings and a drivers white light) were going to be a problem with the 197's and were potentially looked at being closed but now it is being reported that they are all in within spec. Llanbedr is apparently still reported to be getting a new platform which is deeper so that the shelter is moved back to aid with drivers sighting the road as the crossing is the last open crossing on the Cambrian and receives a fair amount of misuse, but it is also said that it will be receiving barriers. I don't know for sure but I do hope the platform length is extended so that it fits a 2 car, I think a 4 car would be a bit overkill but would be nice for when the 4 cars are in operation.

Are they planning 4 carriages for the cambrian?

 

[Lurcheroo]

Ive been told the same. As I understand it its due to the plan being effectively an overnight change, 158s finish one day and the 197s start the next (it'll be slightly more complex than that!) So everything, training, maintenance etc will have to be 100% ready for the service introduction.

So from what I was told, that was the original plan, then it changed to a 3 stage plan so it wouldn’t be quite so abrupt but is now back to the original, overnight swap over plan.

Are they planning 4 carriages for the cambrian?

I assume you are referring to the Cambrian coast Between Machynlleth and Pwllheli. They have approved 4 car running again as of last summer. During the summer timetable there is planned to be 1 4car each way per day. The 10:55 from Machynlleth which will uncouple at Pwllheli, leaving 2 coaches there then for the next service to arrive and couple up to the 2 cars to form the return 4 car working from Pwllheli at 15:37.
It ran a total of 9 times last summer as it was only when they had a unit available. Hopefully by this summer enough 197’s will be in operation to ensure it runs pretty reliably.
Although I still think we need at least 3 coaches on most services in the summer.

 

[BillStampy]

Is there a 197 shortage at the moment as many services have been cancelled due to "A problem at the depot" aka no trains available, is it because trains are being swapped onto the 197 diagrams or is it just the inconvenience of having too many trains in maintenance at one time?

 

[sd0733]

So from what I was told, that was the original plan, then it changed to a 3 stage plan so it wouldn’t be quite so abrupt but is now back to the original, overnight swap over plan.

It's obviously changing regularly as that was only a few days back. Think it'll be a case of wait and see!!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2024 ==

Is there a 197 shortage at the moment as many services have been cancelled due to "A problem at the depot" aka no trains available, is it because trains are being swapped onto the 197 diagrams or is it just the inconvenience of having too many trains in maintenance at one time?

Not especially, 3 look to have dropped out of diagrams today though so may have a slight effect.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Not sure what it will be but there's been talk of doing a few amendments to the timetable In the meantime to effectively restrict the 158s to Birmingham-Cambrian work until then. Things change so much though, it's difficult to know what the latest plans are. I'm sure whatever it is Will officially be said once it's known.

If they're contained to the Cambrian only, not the end of the world then Amending the timetable to put 197s on Birmingham Holyheads would be nice so that the North Wales Coast and Chester Shrewsbury has a completely consistent operation.

 

[wickham]

Thanks sd0733 (Post 5925) for the explanation regarding the missing 197032-042: The big problem with attempting to keep up with these is that the go from Llanwern to Donnington by road, so they don't get reported (or seen !). I understood that there were plans to connect the CAF factory to the national network via the Llanwern steelworks entrance lines, but this does not seem to have happened - I wonder how they will despatch the future ECML high speed train order ??

 

[Lurcheroo]

It's obviously changing regularly as that was only a few days back. Think it'll be a case of wait and see!!

Yes all the time. Can’t exactly name on here but the info has come pretty direct and the answer is that they’re just not totally sure themselves yet and keep changing their mind as to what will be best! All options have pros and cons.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Thanks sd0733 (Post 5925) for the explanation regarding the missing 197032-042: The big problem with attempting to keep up with these is that the go from Llanwern to Donnington by road, so they don't get reported (or seen !). I understood that there were plans to connect the CAF factory to the national network via the Llanwern steelworks entrance lines, but this does not seem to have happened - I wonder how they will despatch the future ECML high speed train order ??

Apparently the rail link for the CAF factory at Llanwern became unlikely once they discovered there is a large gas main in the way !.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

197120 enters service today on 1H79 0552 Chester to Manchester Airport.

 

[BillStampy]

197120 enters service today on 1H79 0552 Chester to Manchester Airport.

Probably gonna stay in the north for a while, similar to other new units. Can't wait for it to enter the South

 

[Lurcheroo]

Some more testing news. 5car Shrewsbury - Crewe clearing runs planned in for March. No further info at this time.

 

[sd0733]

Some more testing news. 5car Shrewsbury - Crewe clearing runs planned in for March. No further info at this time.

Interesting. Obviously whatever the issues are require it to be seen again. The original runs with a 6 car took place back in July.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Interesting. Obviously whatever the issues are require it to be seen again. The original runs with a 6 car took place back in July.

Yes, interesting as well that they’ve specified 5 car and not 6 cars this time.

 

[BillStampy]

Just had a lovely chat with a 150 driver on the way to Cheltenham and he mentioned that the 197s might be starting on Maesteg to Cheltenham next week, I'm not 100% sure but it's possible

 

[Western 52]

Just had a lovely chat with a 150 driver on the way to Cheltenham and he mentioned that the 197s might be starting on Maesteg to Cheltenham next week, I'm not 100% sure but it's possible

That's interesting, I'm doing a rover next week so I'll look out for them. I didn't know they'd cleared them to Maesteg.

 

[BillStampy]

That's interesting, I'm doing a rover next week so I'll look out for them. I didn't know they'd cleared them to Maesteg.

They've been tested a lot for Gloucester recently, so hopefully it does happen next week as they said it'd happen late January. Hope for the best allocations on Monday

 

[Caaardiff]

Just had a lovely chat with a 150 driver on the way to Cheltenham and he mentioned that the 197s might be starting on Maesteg to Cheltenham next week, I'm not 100% sure but it's possible

The 150s are probably needed for Treherbert reopening the end of the month.
Chester - Liverpool hourly is also starting next week.
It begs the question, where are all these 197s coming from to cover it? Only 197120 has been delivered recently.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It begs the question, where are all these 197s coming from to cover it? Only 197120 has been delivered recently.

That's probably why it hasn't happened yet.

 

[Lurcheroo]

The 150s are probably needed for Treherbert reopening the end of the month.
Chester - Liverpool hourly is also starting next week.
It begs the question, where are all these 197s coming from to cover it? Only 197120 has been delivered recently.

The hourly liverpool only requires 1 extra unit(if it happens), so sort of ‘cancels out’ the delivery of 120 to the fleet. How many units are needed for Maesteg to Cheltenham ? I think it looks like 4x2 car units.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The hourly liverpool only requires 1 extra unit(if it happens), so sort of ‘cancels out’ the delivery of 120 to the fleet. How many units are needed for Maesteg to Cheltenham ?

Four are required for a consistent hourly through service. You could get away with three by retaining the odd gaps in Cheltenhams and terminating several Maesteg services at Cardiff Central.

Worth noting that a 2-197 is apparently worse for seating capacity than a 2-150, although a single 153 was running Maesteg Cheltenhams in full yesterday morning and early afternoon. It was coupled to another of the same around mid afternoon.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Four are required for a consistent hourly through service. You could get away with three by retaining the odd gaps in Cheltenhams and terminating several Maesteg services at Cardiff Central.

Worth noting that a 2-197 is apparently worse for seating capacity than a 2-150, although a single 153 was running Maesteg Cheltenhams in full yesterday morning and early afternoon. It was coupled to another of the same around mid afternoon.

Ahh I just looked at RTT and added to my post to say it looks like 4. Thanks for confirming. For regular seats a 2 car 197 is better than 150. 150 has 108 seats whilst a 2 car 197 has 116 seats. But I think the 150 has quite a lot of tip up seats so might win out if you count all of those (I never do as in the 197 they’re unusable if there’s a bike or something like that there).

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Ahh I just looked at RTT and added to my post to say it looks like 4. Thanks for confirming. For regular seats a 2 car 197 is better than 150. 150 has 108 seats whilst a 2 car 197 has 116 seats. But I think the 150 has quite a lot of tip up seats so might win out if you count all of those (I never do as in the 197 they’re unusable if there’s a bike or something like that there).

I was certain a 197 couldn’t be worse for capacity than a 150, but I remember @sd0733 saying a 150 can take more passengers. Not quite sure what exactly it was he said.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I was certain a 197 couldn’t be worse for capacity than a 150, but I remember @sd0733 saying a 150 can take more passengers. Not quite sure what exactly it was he said.

197’s are decent for standing room (not that anyone on the TFW network really wants that) But 150’s might be even better so would get more crammed onto a 2car 150 compared to a 2 car 197?

 

[sd0733]

I was certain a 197 couldn’t be worse for capacity than a 150, but I remember @sd0733 saying a 150 can take more passengers. Not quite sure what exactly it was he said.

150s seem to take crowds better as people filter down the aisles on those. No idea why but on 197s everyone crowds round the doors and doesn't move down. The 150 also has quite large areas. That's my experience anyway others may have had different and will be dependent on how much luggage and any bikes/wheelchairs on board so it was purely anecdotal rather than anything technical!

Obviously the routes 197s work shouldn't be judged on their crush loading ability in normal service once everything settles down so hopefully its something which goes away anyway.

 

[BillStampy]

150s seem to take crowds better as people filter down the aisles on those. No idea why but on 197s everyone crowds round the doors and doesn't move down. The 150 also has quite large areas. That's my experience anyway others may have had different and will be dependent on how much luggage and any bikes/wheelchairs on board so it was purely anecdotal rather than anything technical!

When I was on the rush hour Carmarthen service from Central recently on a 2 car 197, the entire thing was full but everyone kept crowding around the doors, not many moved down the aisle. I don't know why but its just a bit bizzare in my opinion

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I notice people crowding around the doors on 195s/331s up here instead of moving into aisles.
Think it's because of how open the door area feels compared to the aisles.