CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[GWVillager]

I dont believe that was ever the plan. None of the first class sets are anywhere near acceptance stage tet so theres not much point waiting, they're needed out in service and it's not as if the units they're replacing have first class anyway.

Some final PIS tests to check everything works as it should before entry into service.

Ah I see, great news, I’m sure the passengers will finally be glad to be rid of 150s!

 

[45076]

Ah I see, great news, I’m sure the passengers will finally be glad to be rid of 150s!

not for a while yet...

 

[60159]

AFAIK 049 should be the 27th and wasn't far from being out so potentially it could be by now.
The 3s are mostly Still running in the mileage accumulation paths up and down the North Wales Coast with ROG drivers so don't hear much about those yet

Posts suggest 047 and 049 now out so that makes 28 so perhaps only 10 /1s in the 38. Or perhaps more than 38.

 

[sd0733]

Posts suggest 047 and 049 now out so that makes 28 so perhaps only 10 /1s in the 38. Or perhaps more than 38.

047 was accepted a while ago but has been used for static training at Chester due to faults but is first day out.
The 38 to accept has moved on now, there should be an extra one each week added to that so should be around 46/47 now ready for acceptance including the 31 that already are.

 

[Techniquest]

Fantastic news that 197s will soon be heading in service to Manchester Thanks for the heads-up!

 

[Jez]

Not sure on that one. There could be a diagram put together that starts and finishes in Crewe/Chester so doesn't necessarily show it

Is there a reason 197s that are in passenger service cant stable at Canton? The ones used for staff training and testing I assume remain in the South.

Given so many of the Manchester diagrams start at Carmarthen could this be a problem in the future if they cant stable at Carmarthen also?

 

[sd0733]

Is there a reason 197s that are in passenger service cant stable at Canton? The ones used for staff training and testing I assume remain in the South.

Given so many of the Manchester diagrams start at Carmarthen could this be a problem in the future if they cant stable at Carmarthen also?

They go in the day and is only to do with training, it's pretty close I believe to being done. Everywhere will be able to stable eventually.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Oh wow, already? Are they not going to wait for the sets with first class to be delivered?

Fairly sure they were going to start without it anyway, they are towards the end of the order as it is.

SuperLuke2334 is correct - the Rolling Stock Minimum Requirements and Specifications tables from the franchise documents (pre-COVID, when there were only three mark 4 sets in the plan) show the Lease Start Date for the class 197s with first class as not being until 31/12/2024. Prior to 31/12/2024 the CAF units with first class were to be used with what the documents call "Decommissioned First class" (presumably decommissioned = declassified) with up to half of them (still to be decided at the time) possibly to be delivered in 'first class ready' condition (presumably a slightly modified standard class layout to make it easier to replace the standard class interior with the first class one when the time came).

 

[paddyb6]

Regarding the Marches, what are the 197 diagrams looking like for the next few weeks? From what I can tell, are all Holyhead-Cardiff diagrams now booked as 197s, if not Mk4s?

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Regarding the Marches, what are the 197 diagrams looking like for the next few weeks? From what I can tell, are all Holyhead-Cardiff diagrams now booked as 197s, if not Mk4s?

Not all holyheads are, but quite a few. 1W90 and 1W92 are not yet 197s, along with their 1V95 and 1V97 returns, plus 1W98. There are probably more but that's off the top of my head.
1W91,1w93, 1v96 and 1v
Holyhead mk4s are 1V91 and 1W96 for now.

 

[Jez]

If they split the West Wales-Manchester workings at Cardiff that would be 8 diagrams to run an hourly service. 4 of these are MK4's (or eventually at least they will be!) which would require 8 x 2 cars to make up a 4 car for each of the other services. So maybe the plan is to keep the 2 car 150s/153s and however many 175s are still available to work West of Cardiff until the full route can be handed over to the 197s. Its got to be an improvement on a 2 car 150 or 153 all the way from Milford to Manchester anyway.

 

[sd0733]

If they split the West Wales-Manchester workings at Cardiff that would be 8 diagrams to run an hourly service. 4 of these are MK4's (or eventually at least they will be!) which would require 8 x 2 cars to make up a 4 car for each of the other services. So maybe the plan is to keep the 2 car 150s/153s and however many 175s are still available to work West of Cardiff until the full route can be handed over to the 197s. Its got to be an improvement on a 2 car 150 or 153 all the way from Milford to Manchester anyway.

They won't be all split, Carmarthen to Cardiff isn't that far behind so it's unlikely to make it past 1 diagram on a very short term basis.

 

[Topological]

They won't be all split, Carmarthen to Cardiff isn't that far behind so it's unlikely to make it past 1 diagram on a very short term basis.

That is a relief

Whilst the extra capacity of a 4 car 197 would be welcome, it is very frustrating arriving from Swansea (or other points with a normally direct service) to see that Cardiff passengers got first call on the seats on the new set. I would genuinely be happier staying on my 150. If that is selfish then so be it, I use my laptop for work on the train and rarely find that possible in airline style seats.

 

[Caaardiff]

The issue is the number of Cardiff train crew trained up. Percentage wise there's more Carmarthen train crew trained up than Cardiff train crew. So it would be targeting certain roster groups at each Depot that cover specific services.
Cardiff also isn't a suitable location for even more terminating and shunting services. I can't imagine NR being happy about having more.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

That is a relief

Whilst the extra capacity of a 4 car 197 would be welcome, it is very frustrating arriving from Swansea (or other points with a normally direct service) to see that Cardiff passengers got first call on the seats on the new set. I would genuinely be happier staying on my 150. If that is selfish then so be it, I use my laptop for work on the train and rarely find that possible in airline style seats.

Depends vastly on what seats for me. The Sophias and the 175 seats (Transcal?) have very generous pull-down tables, but the Chapman pull downs verge on useless.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2023 ==

Is 197111 running STP ECS from Cardiff to Chester this evening?

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Depends vastly on what seats for me. The Sophias and the 175 seats (Transcal?) have very generous pull-down tables, but the Chapman pull downs verge on useless.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2023 ==

Is 197111 running STP ECS from Cardiff to Chester this evening?

It was on 1V95 today Holyhead to Cardiff Central. I saw it at Shrewsbury at 11:22.

 

[Jez]

The issue is the number of Cardiff train crew trained up. Percentage wise there's more Carmarthen train crew trained up than Cardiff train crew. So it would be targeting certain roster groups at each Depot that cover specific services.
Cardiff also isn't a suitable location for even more terminating and shunting services. I can't imagine NR being happy about having more.

I was thinking that about extra terminating trains in Cardiff. I suppose if it is only 1 diagram it wont be too bad. But it means 2 trains terminating every time, one from West Wales, one from Manchester.

Good to hear Carmarthen training is well underway. Hopefully not long now.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2023 ==

That is a relief

Whilst the extra capacity of a 4 car 197 would be welcome, it is very frustrating arriving from Swansea (or other points with a normally direct service) to see that Cardiff passengers got first call on the seats on the new set. I would genuinely be happier staying on my 150. If that is selfish then so be it, I use my laptop for work on the train and rarely find that possible in airline style seats.

I agree. Even if i don't get a seat to Cardiff (most of the time I do get a seat to be fair) at least when most people alight the train at Cardiff i get first pick to get a seat or move seats for the rest of the journey. I would hope they would hold the connection in any case at Cardiff if the train from West Wales is delayed, otherwise they could be paying a lot of delay repay if its missed.

 

[Topological]

I was thinking that about extra terminating trains in Cardiff. I suppose if it is only 1 diagram it wont be too bad. But it means 2 trains terminating every time, one from West Wales, one from Manchester.

Good to hear Carmarthen training is well underway. Hopefully not long now.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2023 ==


I agree. Even if i don't get a seat to Cardiff (most of the time I do get a seat to be fair) at least when most people alight the train at Cardiff i get first pick to get a seat or move seats for the rest of the journey. I would hope they would hold the connection in any case at Cardiff if the train from West Wales is delayed, otherwise they could be paying a lot of delay repay if its missed.

Of course the 2 terminating in many hours is even worse than it could be. IF trains crossed at Cardiff then the Manchester could arrive in one half of the platform and the Swansea* in the other. The two trainloads of passengers could swap and the sets continue on their way roughly on path. Some hours this works, others it does not. Obviously splitting has been forced upon us in some hours by the Mk4.

It would be nice if the 1 diagram was the 1 that Mk4 do not cover. Meaning 1W13 from Swansea being Mk4 and the 16:30 ex Manchester also being Mk4. One of the other diagrams which does not cover those two (12:30 or 14:30 ex Manchester) would be a good candidate.

 

[Rhydgaled]

it is very frustrating arriving from Swansea (or other points with a normally direct service) to see that Cardiff passengers got first call on the seats on the new set. I would genuinely be happier staying on my 150. If that is selfish then so be it, I use my laptop for work on the train and rarely find that possible in airline style seats.

Depends vastly on what seats for me. The Sophias and the 175 seats (Transcal?) have very generous pull-down tables, but the Chapman pull downs verge on useless.

I would have thought the ability (or otherwise) to use a laptop in airline-style seating would have more to do with the seat pitch (space between rows) that design of the pull-down table, although thinking about it now the recline angle of the seat and thickness of the seat backs (ie. legroom rather than seat pitch specifically) are probably significant also. The class 175s have great legroom compared to a 150 so might be possible to use a laptop in airline-style seating on the former.

 

[Anonymous10]

I would have thought the ability (or otherwise) to use a laptop in airline-style seating would have more to do with the seat pitch (space between rows) that design of the pull-down table, although thinking about it now the recline angle of the seat and thickness of the seat backs (ie. legroom rather than seat pitch specifically) are probably significant also. The class 175s have great legroom compared to a 150 so might be possible to use a laptop in airline-style seating on the former.

You can also put smaller laptops on the airline tray tables on a 175 or 158 but not on a 150 or 153 as they have a habit of holding all the way down with any amount if weight.

 

[Topological]

You can also put smaller laptops on the airline tray tables on a 175 or 158 but not on a 150 or 153 as they have a habit of holding all the way down with any amount if weight.

And therein lies the problem, smaller laptops.

I find the only comfortable way to work is with a table, which is possible from Swansea, or by boarding at Piccadilly first, but otherwise a big challenge.

There is always a moment of dread that there will be a set swap at Cardiff going north.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

And therein lies the problem, smaller laptops.

I find the only comfortable way to work is with a table, which is possible from Swansea, or by boarding at Piccadilly first, but otherwise a big challenge.

There is always a moment of dread that there will be a set swap at Cardiff going north.

We like set swaps here in Cardiff, provided the rolling stock type isn’t a downgrade. Trains on Carmarthen Manchester come in very busy and with most seats of choice taken, and this gives us a chance to pick for a change

 

[Anonymous10]

And therein lies the problem, smaller laptops.

I find the only comfortable way to work is with a table, which is possible from Swansea, or by boarding at Piccadilly first, but otherwise a big challenge.

There is always a moment of dread that there will be a set swap at Cardiff going north.

Indeed I find this with a 16" screen laptop.

 

[sd0733]

1W91 06:48 Cardiff to Holyhead and 1V96 11:33 return is planned to go over to 197s this week so should be the first Canton start/finish diagrams.

There's now 24 running 197 diagrams, 17 2 car, 3 3 car and 4 training diagrams.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

1W91 06:48 Cardiff to Holyhead and 1V96 11:33 return is planned to go over to 197s this week so should be the first Canton start/finish diagrams.

There's now 24 running 197 diagrams, 17 2 car, 3 3 car and 4 training diagrams.

Yes, just hopped online to say exactly this after seeing it on RTT. Great news.
197001 & 197048.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2023 ==

Edit: That particular diagram aside, the North Wales 197 allocations are a little late out this morning aren’t they?

 

[sd0733]

Edit: That particular diagram aside, the North Wales 197 allocations are a little late out this morning aren’t they?

A Fair chunk aren't even showing on the internal systems yet so RTT has no chance!

 

[Envoy]

Why does RTT say that the 6.48 from Cardiff to Holyhead is pathed as a diesel locomotive with 1st class only from Shrewsbury (with restaurant)? This is of course the service that is today a 4 coach 197. Is the intention that this should be a loco hauled service or will it now always be a 197? If it were to be a loco hauled service, does it mean that second class passengers can sit in the 1st class as far as Shrewsbury?

Very disappointing to see that the 9.22 Cardiff to Holyhead today is a 2 coach 150. Is that the best they can manage? They also have the 2 coach Northern 150 heading from Cardiff to Manchester this morning. Perhaps they are returning it to Northern?

 

[sd0733]

Why does RTT say that the 6.48 from Cardiff to Holyhead is pathed as a diesel locomotive with 1st class only from Shrewsbury (with restaurant)? This is of course the service that is today a 4 coach 197. Is the intention that this should be a loco hauled service or will it now always be a 197? If it were to be a loco hauled service, does it mean that second class passengers can sit in the 1st class as far as Shrewsbury?

All the former Mk4 services to Holyhead appear like that for some reason and have done ever since the timetable change. Seems something wasn't done quite right when it changed over to delete them.
It's certainly not a Mk4 diagram now, and as far as I know is highly u likely to go back to one for the foreseeable future so It'll just be 197s (or substituting 15x) going forward

 

[Envoy]

All the former Mk4 services to Holyhead appear like that for some reason and have done ever since the timetable change. Seems something wasn't done quite right when it changed over to delete them.
It's certainly not a Mk4 diagram now, and as far as I know is highly u likely to go back to one for the foreseeable future so It'll just be 197s (or substituting 15x) going forward

Many thanks for your quick response. Not sure how many members of the general public are aware of RTT but it sure would be desirable if incorrect information got deleted.

 

[Krokodil]

A Fair chunk aren't even showing on the internal systems yet so RTT has no chance!

Short staffed in Control last night.

Why does RTT say that the 6.48 from Cardiff to Holyhead is pathed as a diesel locomotive with 1st class only from Shrewsbury (with restaurant)?

That's a timing load, mostly there for the benefit of the planners. The reference to the restaurant only being available from Shrewsbury will probably reflect where the chef gets on.

This is of course the service that is today a 4 coach 197. Is the intention that this should be a loco hauled service

From September it should return to loco haulage. It can also be done on an ad hoc basis, which has happened on one occasion to my knowledge.

does it mean that second class passengers can sit in the 1st class as far as Shrewsbury?

Of course not.

Very disappointing to see that the 9.22 Cardiff to Holyhead today is a 2 coach 150. Is that the best they can manage?

Usually yes. Would be a better train for that 4 car 197 to be used on to be honest, it's a busy one.