CAF Caledonian Sleeper LHCS

[paulclass43]

How are they going to feed all those showers, sinks and loos with water then?

Im imagining a system similar to a loft tank been topped up by the mains, but in this case been topped up by an underfloor reservoir and sump.

That going to make for very heavy coaches.

 

[33056]

IThe only diversion that seems to take the Caledonian Sleeper away from the wires is when it runs via the ECML, which only constitutes a short length requiring diesel power at the London end and is not a frequent occurrence.

No, it's electric all the way via the ECML though a diesel might well appear on the Wembley / Euston section, especially in the morning when four locos are needed.

 

[59CosG95]

Does anyone know if the existing sleeper LHCS is being repainted into the new colours?

 

[paulclass43]

Does anyone know if the existing sleeper LHCS is being repainted into the new colours?

I have no actual idea. But, I would consider it very unlikely. What given the tight maintenance schedule been based out of Inverness and the shear number of coaches for such a small franchise. I wouldn't do it personally. I maybe stick some appropriate vinyls to the sides and wait for the new stock.

Seems an unnecessary and avoidable expense.
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No, it's electric all the way via the ECML though a diesel might well appear on the Wembley / Euston section, especially in the morning when four locos are needed.

Might be a daft question but why not stick a DVT on the sleeper? It would eliminate the need for a second loco to reverse

 

[33056]

Might be a daft question but why not stick a DVT on the sleeper? It would eliminate the need for a second loco to reverse

Firstly, AFAIK there aren't any DVTs going spare any more and, secondly, why have a couple of vehicles for something that happens a handful of times a year? The reversal doesn't take very long, the thing that usually takes up the most time is the shunter walking from one end to the other.

 

[59CosG95]

I have no actual idea. But, I would consider it very unlikely. What given the tight maintenance schedule been based out of Inverness and the shear number of coaches for such a small franchise. I wouldn't do it personally. I maybe stick some appropriate vinyls to the sides and wait for the new stock.

Seems an unnecessary and avoidable expense.

Sounds like the best thing in the situation-they could of course just revinyl them into midnight teal.

Might be a daft question but why not stick a DVT on the sleeper? It would eliminate the need for a second loco to reverse

That could work; both for push-pull operation and for luggage/cycle storage, as they currently are. Not sure if the 92's/47's work with the DVT's however, but I'm sure very little work is required to install TDM equipment. There are plenty going spare at Long Marston just waiting to be used!

 

[paulclass43]

Sounds like the best thing in the situation-they could of course just revinyl them into midnight teal.



That could work; both for push-pull operation and for luggage/cycle storage, as they currently are. Not sure if the 92's/47's work with the DVT's however, but I'm sure very little work is required to install TDM equipment. There are plenty going spare at Long Marston just waiting to be used!

92's are TDM fitted. I was only thinking south of Edinburgh/Carstairs really. It would be too much work to shunt a DVT on to each portion.

Could put a generator in the DVT like Chiltern so that any loco could rescue the sleeper instead of only relying on the availability of an ETH fitted loco.

God what was the control system on the push pull 47's calle? I only read it the other day.
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Firstly, AFAIK there aren't any DVTs going spare any more and, secondly, why have a couple of vehicles for something that happens a handful of times a year? The reversal doesn't take very long, the thing that usually takes up the most time is the shunter walking from one end to the other.

Happens a bit more than a handful of times. Having a DVT would also eliminate the need to hire more locos for ECS moves. Just walk to tother end, hop in, and off we go. DVT'S are cheaper then locos.

 

[sprinterguy]

God what was the control system on the push pull 47's calle? I only read it the other day.

The Push-pull class 47/7s used a Frequency Division Multiplex system, a less advanced forerunner of the TDM system that has been more widely adopted since the late eighties.

 

[captainbigun]

92s not fitted with TDM, 47/7s were fitted with a early Brush version of TDM. But that's irrelevant as 67s are to remain, 47s are dead on this job. And there are no spare DVTs.

 

[CosherB]

92s not fitted with TDM, 47/7s were fitted with a early Brush version of TDM. But that's irrelevant as 67s are to remain, 47s are dead on this job. And there are no spare DVTs.

No spare DVT's? Aren't there about 15 stored away, still in Virgin red/black? I very much doubt they're in a particularly decent state though.....

 

[captainbigun]

No spare DVT's? Aren't there about 15 stored away, still in Virgin red/black? I very much doubt they're in a particularly decent state though.....

Err, no. What's left is either about to be or has just been cut. DBR purchased the better ones.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Having a DVT would also eliminate the need to hire more locos for ECS moves. Just walk to tother end, hop in, and off we go. DVT'S are cheaper then locos.

You'd have to either completely re-do the diagrams and lose 6.25% of the train capacity or keep the diagrams as they area and lose 12.5% of the train capacity plus the ability to walk through the middle of the train.

What is at the London end one night northbound will end up in the middle of the train southbound the next night.

 

[po8crg]

The suggestion that's been going around to convert the DTS cars of 442s into Mk3 DTSOs might work for this purpose, in that it doesn't involve giving up a car's worth of seating capacity. But by the time they would be available, the new CAF stock will be complete or nearly so.

 

[paulclass43]

92s not fitted with TDM, 47/7s were fitted with a early Brush version of TDM. But that's irrelevant as 67s are to remain, 47s are dead on this job. And there are no spare DVTs.

92's are indeed TDM fitted. (Source, Engineering the Channel Tunnel, page 184).

Class 67's are been withdrawn from Caledonian Sleeper from 1 April been replaced with GBRF Class 47's been subleased from Harry Needle and Riviera until the 73's are ready to enter traffic. I.E. when they get final route clearance North of Edinburgh.

 

[Chester025]

Class 67's are been withdrawn from Caledonian Sleeper from 1 April been replaced with GBRF Class 47's been subleased from Harry Needle and Riviera until the 73's are ready to enter traffic. I.E. when they get final route clearance North of Edinburgh.

Not anymore!

 

[paulclass43]

Not anymore!

No? Now what have SERCO decided to do?
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Bugger, just read in the "Scotsman" that the 67's will be kept on untill the 73's are ready. Well there goes my trip on the sleeper behind a 47. I like the 67's but they're so boring. Was looking forward to a Class 47 sleeper bash. Oh well if it isn't to be, it isn't to be.

Whats SERCO's logic behind keeping the 67's? Seems odd that they are going to lease locos from two FOC's, can't imagine that GBRF are too chuffed.

 

[captainbigun]

92's are indeed TDM fitted. (Source, Engineering the Channel Tunnel, page 184).

Class 67's are been withdrawn from Caledonian Sleeper from 1 April been replaced with GBRF Class 47's been subleased from Harry Needle and Riviera until the 73's are ready to enter traffic. I.E. when they get final route clearance North of Edinburgh.

They may have multi-working which uses TDM, though I do not believe that is the case either. They absolutely will not work with a DVT.

Source, personal experience.

As for 47s....keep up at the back.

 

[D6975]

What is at the London end one night northbound will end up in the middle of the train southbound the next night.

No it wouldn't. The Glasgow and Edinburgh portions both go ecs to Polmadie. The DVT would go to Edinburgh in the morning, but would be put out on the Glasgow portion on the next night.

 

[Chester025]

I like the 67's but they're so boring.

Oxymoron?

 

[DEAN MURPHY]

There is about 10 or more DVTs stored at Long Marston and some are in pretty good condition externally at least!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

No it wouldn't. The Glasgow and Edinburgh portions both go ecs to Polmadie. The DVT would go to Edinburgh in the morning, but would be put out on the Glasgow portion on the next night.

Ah, but if you do that then you then haven't got a DVT leading to get the rake back to Wembley from Euston have you? It'll be tucked up behind the locomotive at the buffer end at Euston...

 

[alexl92]

Ah, but if you do that then you then haven't got a DVT leading to get the rake back to Wembley from Euston have you? It'll be tucked up behind the locomotive at the buffer end at Euston...

Network Rail put a 67 between a pair of DVTs recently. Couldn't you set the sleeper up so the loco was in the middle with a DVT on each end, with the 67 propelling the front portion one way and another loco taking the other portion afterwards?

 

[najaB]

Couldn't you set the sleeper up so the loco was in the middle with a DVT on each end, with the 67 propelling the front portion one way and another loco taking the other portion afterwards?

Then you lose the ability to walk from end to end - not sure that anyone ever does this, but at least it is possible.

 

[ainsworth74]

Then you lose the ability to walk from end to end - not sure that anyone ever does this, but at least it is possible.

Passengers probably don't (if for no other reason than the corridor in sleeper vehicles is tiny) but train crew almost certainly do.

 

[D6975]

Ah, but if you do that then you then haven't got a DVT leading to get the rake back to Wembley from Euston have you? It'll be tucked up behind the locomotive at the buffer end at Euston...

????
The DVT would be on the London end, the loco on the Glasgow end, pushing. The loco would be leading back to Wembley. The Edinburgh portion would be attached to the back by the Glasgow loco rather than the Edinburgh loco at Carstairs. It would work no trouble. Or you could just make the Edinburgh loco the through loco southbound. Easy peasy.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

????
The DVT would be on the London end, the loco on the Glasgow end, pushing. The loco would be leading back to Wembley. The Edinburgh portion would be attached to the back by the Glasgow loco rather than the Edinburgh loco at Carstairs. It would work no trouble. Or you could just make the Edinburgh loco the through loco southbound. Easy peasy.

In the first instance, would you not still end up with the DVT in the middle anyway? If the loco was on the London end southbound and you put the Edinburgh on the back of the train...

In the second instance, would that not result in both DVTs facing each other in the middle of the train?

Either way - how are you then going to turn the train at London for the next northbound trip?

 

[Masbroughlad]

Are there any images of refurbished coaches yet (I assume some of them will get at least a repaint?!)

 

[D6975]

In the first instance, would you not still end up with the DVT in the middle anyway? If the loco was on the London end southbound and you put the Edinburgh on the back of the train...

In the second instance, would that not result in both DVTs facing each other in the middle of the train?

Either way - how are you then going to turn the train at London for the next northbound trip?

No, No and the train doesn't need turning.
You haven't thought this through. Why on earth would the loco be on the London end. The whole point of using DVTs is that the loco can PUSH the train.


I see I'll need too spell it out move by move.
The required stock for this (Nbound and Sbound) is 3 locos, 4 portions of sleepers and 2 DVTs.

Start at Wembley. Formation South to North is DVT, Edin portion, Glas portion, loco.
Move down to Eus DVT first, goes up to Carstairs loco first.

At Carstairs, loco takes Glas(front) portion to Central, loco 2 drops on back portion, takes DVT and Edin portion to Edinburgh. Edin loco runs round at Waverley, takes portion back to Polmadie, runs up to Central light engine, brings Glas portion back to polmadie.

Next evening, loco 1 plus portion without DVT runs ecs to Waverley and runs round. Loco 2 plus Glas portion plus DVT runs up to central, loco leading, DVT trailing.

Both then work down to Carstairs. Loco off Glasgow portion detaches, leaving DVT plus Glas portion in the platform, goes to stabling point and waits to do the Northbound Edinburgh portion later on.
Edinburgh portion (no DVT) arrives, runs into the headshunt and drops back onto the Glasgow portion.

You now have a train in the platform consisting of (South to North) DVT, Glas portion, Edin portion, loco.
This runs down to Euston DVT first, back up to Wembley loco first. We are now back at the beginning again with the same formation, the same way round.(Glas and Edin portions are identical, so the fact that they've swopped positions is irrelevant)

At no point do you need extra ecs locos and at no point do you get a misplaced DVT.

 

[captainbigun]

Which is all irrelevant as there aren't and won't be any DVTs.

 

[CosherB]

Rather amazed to see 67004 newly redecorated in Caledonian blue at Toton (photo on wnxx). With DBS not noted for short-term repaints (normally reserved for that prolific painter DRS! :roll: ) can we read anything into the potential longer term use of 676004 north of the border?