CAF Caledonian Sleeper LHCS

[po8crg]

Serco have contracted with CAF to build new sleeper stock for the Caledonian Sleeper

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...-signs-caledonian-sleeper-coach-contract.html

CAF signs Caledonian Sleeper coach contract

Spanish rolling stock manufacturer CAF announced on February 10 that it had signed the €200m contract to supply Serco Caledonian Sleepers Ltd with 75 new coaches for use on Anglo-Scottish sleeper services from April 2018, plus associated spares and technical support. The coaches are being financed by the Caledonian Sleepers Rail Leasing Ltd subsidiary of Lombard North Central plc, with a £60m capital grant from the Scottish government.

The order covers four 16-coach rakes each comprising five types of coach, plus 11 spare vehicles. Future operator Serco says the cars will provide a mixture of travel options including first class en-suite berths, standard berths, ‘cradle seats for standard class guests’ and ‘pod flat-beds for affordable comfort’. There will also be a ‘luxurious new brasserie club car’, and improved accessibility. Edinburgh-based designer Ian Smith is responsible for creating a ‘contemporary’ style for the coaches...

I think this is the first new loco-hauled stock in GB since the Mark 4.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Strictly speaking there was the nightstar stock after the Mk4s, although they were never actually used in this country as far as I know.

 

[po8crg]

... and I deliberately wrote GB not UK because of Enterprise.

 

[Altnabreac]

As I mentioned on the main Sleeper thread, when Serco first announced they had won the bid the order was for 72 carriages.

This has now increased to 75, so it looks like they've decided they need more spares.

Also interesting that there will be 5 different types of coach. Unfortunately I can't find anything that confirms what each of the coaches will be or what a typical 8 coach half train will consist of.

 

[po8crg]

From the article:

first class en-suite berths, standard berths, ‘cradle seats for standard class guests’ and ‘pod flat-beds for affordable comfort’. There will also be a ‘luxurious new brasserie club car’

One coach will obviously be the club car; I'd guess the two berth types will be in one coach (en-suite throughout would be tricky in water and retention tanks), that leaves three types for the seated coaches, one of which will be a seated coach with disabled loo, so one coach of cradle seats and one of pod-beds. That's five.

Would be nice to get official confirmation (inc which type of seated car gets the disabled loo) but that's the outline, surely?

 

[Altnabreac]

From the article:



One coach will obviously be the club car; I'd guess the two berth types will be in one coach (en-suite throughout would be tricky in water and retention tanks), that leaves three types for the seated coaches, one of which will be a seated coach with disabled loo, so one coach of cradle seats and one of pod-beds. That's five.

Would be nice to get official confirmation (inc which type of seated car gets the disabled loo) but that's the outline, surely?

Three coaches of seated per service would probably breach the ITT. At least 15% of capacity must be Business Class cabins and at least 20% standard class.

For capacity calculation purposes each cabin counts as 1 unit, the same as each seat. So let's assume 12 cabins per coach and maybe 30 pods or 40 seats per coach.

On a 8 coach formation with 3 seated that would be a total capacity of 48 cabins, 110 seats for a total of around 160. 24/160 for each type of cabin would only be 15%, below the minimum threshold for standard cabins.

A more likely formation with 2 seated would be 60 cabins, 70 pods / seats total capacity 130. 24/130 is 18% for Business Class, 36/130 is 27% for Standard Class.

 

[CallySleeper]

Three coaches of seated per service would probably breach the ITT. At least 15% of capacity must be Business Class cabins and at least 20% standard class.

For capacity calculation purposes each cabin counts as 1 unit, the same as each seat. So let's assume 12 cabins per coach and maybe 30 pods or 40 seats per coach.

On a 8 coach formation with 3 seated that would be a total capacity of 48 cabins, 110 seats for a total of around 160. 24/160 for each type of cabin would only be 15%, below the minimum threshold for standard cabins.

A more likely formation with 2 seated would be 60 cabins, 70 pods / seats total capacity 130. 24/130 is 18% for Business Class, 36/130 is 27% for Standard Class.

Just in case you'd forgotten you posted this.

 

[alexl92]

I read somewhere that each coach will cost £2m... that seems like an insanely large amount... can that be right?

 

[Yew]

I read somewhere that each coach will cost £2m... that seems like an insanely large amount... can that be right?

Potentially, as they are custom builds to an unusual guage. Although it might include a service contract.

 

[BantamMenace]

I read somewhere that each coach will cost £2m... that seems like an insanely large amount... can that be right?

For something thats is unpowered that seems incredibly expensive.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For something thats is unpowered that seems incredibly expensive.

The interiors are no doubt far more expensive to fit out than just a metal tube full of seats. Airline business class flatbeds, for instance, are thousands of pounds *each*.

Neil

 

[Altnabreac]

Just in case you'd forgotten you posted this.

Yep, but then I did the Maths. Think the terms of the tender probably limit it to 2 coaches of seated. Unless there are a lot less seats/pods per coach than in my assumptions.

 

[Bodiddly]

I read somewhere that each coach will cost £2m... that seems like an insanely large amount... can that be right?

As with any rail related purchase, you take a figure from the real world and treble it.

 

[Fishplate84]

£2m per coach is a huge sum. At this level of niche operation with bespoke stock is there any option?
Transport Scotland were prepared to spend £50m on a gentle warm over of the fleet and end up with nothing more than a 30 year old fleet in a new dress. That decision would have killed the sleeper in 15 years as no political party would put £50m or more back on the table for this again, especially having already blown £50m on a refresh so recently.
A brave move of Serco for going with new, but the only real option if Transport Scotland are truely committed to the sleepers long term survival.

There is no way this stock could ever be priced comparably with standardised high volume production run MU day stock. The scale efficiencies aren't possible unless you created a MU sleeper based on something already being manufactured in volume.

 

[Ash Bridge]

For something thats is unpowered that seems incredibly expensive.

Dosen't seem so high when you think around £300,000 a piece is the purchase price just for a fleet of buses in Ireland, could imagine a new mk3/4 would cost £1.3-1.5m at today's costs.

 

[Ships]

As with any rail related purchase, you take a figure from the real world and treble it.

Please....everyone knows it's x10, at least!

 

[WatcherZero]

Plumbing, cabins, complicated electrical wiring.

 

[West Ruislip]

Alstom awarded 15 year maintenance contract.

http://railannouncement.zenfolio.co...-year-caledonian-sleeper-maintenance-contract

 

[cf111]

Alstom awarded 15 year maintenance contract.

http://railannouncement.zenfolio.co...-year-caledonian-sleeper-maintenance-contract

Answers the questions about Inverness then. On a semi-related note, does anyone know where ScotRail plan to base their HST maintenance? Craigentinny?

 

[CosherB]

They didn't operate the Prentendolino, they just leased a 90 from DBS and then sub-leased the 90 to Virgin Trains.
And as far as I'm aware 90034 has been returned to DBS now, so it would be them offering it to GA (it has been reported that it has had its DRS branding removed and DBS branding in its place).

Spot on Boothby ...... photos online show 90034 with red-and-white DB branding on cab-ends (as per 66s) with all 'asymmetric' DRS branding gone. Ash - would be interested to know what carriage stock DRS would have in mind ...... is there enough going spare?

 

[CAF397]

Presumably one of the coaches will need a guards compartment.

 

[Altnabreac]

Answers the questions about Inverness then. On a semi-related note, does anyone know where ScotRail plan to base their HST maintenance? Craigentinny?

I think this strongly increases the chances of the Highland Sleeper becoming a 3 x 5 coach service with an extra coach on whichever leg proves busiest.

Removing the shunting requirement at Edinburgh each night simplifies the operation and it enables them to transport seated passengers, luggage and bikes right through to Fort William without a 4am change.

There would be a net reduction of one sleeper carriage per night with an extra club car in the formation at Euston but probably still worth doing for consistency.

 

[alexl92]

Question: Will the new stock be required to include some form of brake coach? Are they still necessary in modern operations?

 

[Altnabreac]

Question: Will the new stock be required to include some form of brake coach? Are they still necessary in modern operations?

There was some speculation on the other thread about whether the new stock could feature a driving cab for ECS movements, thus reducing the locomotive requirements at terminus stations.

I wonder if this information from the Railway Gazette story supports this theory:

Three Class 86 and 87 electric locomotives are to be hired from the AC Locomotive Group heritage organisation for use on empty stock movements in London.

Heritage Stock doesn't really seem like a long term 15 year plan. Using it for 3 years until your new cab fitted stock arrives might make more sense.

 

[Boothby97]

Spot on Boothby ...... photos online show 90034 with red-and-white DB branding on cab-ends (as per 66s) with all 'asymmetric' DRS branding gone. Ash - would be interested to know what carriage stock DRS would have in mind ...... is there enough going spare?

They've got a fleet of Mark 2 coaches (many of which have been repainted/refurbished), and they have a rake of stored Mark 3 coaches. They also own DVT 82101 and a few Mark 2 DBSOs.

 

[158722]

They've got a fleet of Mark 2 coaches (many of which have been repainted/refurbished), and they have a rake of stored Mark 3 coaches. They also own DVT 82101 and a few Mark 2 DBSOs.

DRS don't have enough Mk2s to run Anglia, Cumbria and the Fife circle, hence watch for movements of some Riviera Mk2s from Crewe over the next few weeks, off for overhaul for their new owner...

 

[Boothby97]

DRS don't have enough Mk2s to run Anglia, Cumbria and the Fife circle, hence watch for movements of some Riviera Mk2s from Crewe over the next few weeks, off for overhaul for their new owner...

So DRS have bought some Riviera Mk2s then? Not surprised if so, I always though they had too many....

 

[158722]

So DRS have bought some Riviera Mk2s then? Not surprised if so, I always though they had too many....

How about an exchange of Mk2s and 47s between the two companies...

 

[CosherB]

How about an exchange of Mk2s and 47s between the two companies...

I suspect you have insider knowledge!

 

[theblackwatch]

I suspect you have insider knowledge!

Or he's been looking at the news section of wnxx! :P