"ByeLaw Enforcement Officers" New?

[6Gman]

Travelling in Liverpool today (on Merseyrail) two chaps in hi-viz jackets were 'assisting' a third chap off a train. At first I wasn't sure whether they were Police, Community Support Officers, paramedics or revenue protection, but as they passed me it struck me that the person being 'assisted' appeared to be drunk, and as they walked away I saw the lettering 'ByeLaw Enforcement Officer' [or something similar] on the back of their hi-viz jackets.

Never seen this before - is it a new/recent role? And who are they working for? Interesting that they were operating in an area where a drunken passenger met a tragic fate quite recently. [And no, this is not intended to reopen the debate over the recent manslaughter case]

 

[island]

I don't think it's new. Miseryrail has had these guys for a while.

 

[Ferret]

Travelling in Liverpool today (on Merseyrail) two chaps in hi-viz jackets were 'assisting' a third chap off a train. At first I wasn't sure whether they were Police, Community Support Officers, paramedics or revenue protection, but as they passed me it struck me that the person being 'assisted' appeared to be drunk, and as they walked away I saw the lettering 'ByeLaw Enforcement Officer' [or something similar] on the back of their hi-viz jackets.

Never seen this before - is it a new/recent role? And who are they working for? Interesting that they were operating in an area where a drunken passenger met a tragic fate quite recently. [And no, this is not intended to reopen the debate over the recent manslaughter case]

Sounds very similar to the REOs (Railway Enforcement Officers) that East Coast employed....for a very short while!

 

[AntoniC]

They are from Carlisle Group, who have a partnership with Merseyrail to improve safety (on the cheap).

As far as I am aware they have LESS powers than a PCSO, but dont realise it.

In fact I dont know what powers they have (if any).

Travelling in Liverpool today (on Merseyrail) two chaps in hi-viz jackets were 'assisting' a third chap off a train. At first I wasn't sure whether they were Police, Community Support Officers, paramedics or revenue protection, but as they passed me it struck me that the person being 'assisted' appeared to be drunk, and as they walked away I saw the lettering 'ByeLaw Enforcement Officer' [or something similar] on the back of their hi-viz jackets.

Never seen this before - is it a new/recent role? And who are they working for? Interesting that they were operating in an area where a drunken passenger met a tragic fate quite recently. [And no, this is not intended to reopen the debate over the recent manslaughter case]

 

[EM2]

Well, Byelaw 25:

“authorised person” means:
(i) a person acting in the course of his duties who:
(a) is an employee or agent of an Operator, or
(b) any other person authorised by an Operator,

So, as it appears that they are authorised by, or are agents of, Merseyrail, they have the power to enforce the Byelaws.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

They are from Carlisle Group, who have a partnership with Merseyrail to improve safety (on the cheap).

As far as I am aware they have LESS powers than a PCSO, but don't realise it.

In fact I don't know what powers they have (if any).

What you say suggests very poor training by Carlisle Group, as one part of such training consists of the understanding of the operatives cognisance of the law that will cover the type of work they do. I understand that the SIA training for security officers covers the basic premises of different facets of offenses committed against the law.

I am trying to understand what you refer to when you say that you do not know what powers these operatives have, yet go on to say that as far as you are aware they have LESS powers than a PCSO. Do you know what powers a PCSO has ?

 

[sheff1]

In fact I dont know what powers they have (if any).

One can only assume that, as they are entitled 'Byelaw Enforcement Officers', they have the power to enforce Byelaws. A quick skim of the Railway Byelaws suggest that such powers are quite extensive.

 

[AlexS]

They're effectively cheap private security - any railway officer effectively has the authority to enforce the railway byelaws. If a train dispatcher orders you off the station in accordance with a byelaw, provided they show appropriate ID and are enforcing them correctly, legally you have to go.

 

[sheff1]

They're effectively cheap private security - any railway officer effectively has the authority to enforce the railway byelaws. If a train dispatcher orders you off the station in accordance with a byelaw, provided they show appropriate ID and are enforcing them correctly, legally you have to go.

Yes, but a train dispatcher has the safety crititical role of train dispatch as their primary role, not the enforcement of byelaws. Similiar with other railway officers. I would expect the primary role of a Byelaw Enforcement Officer to be byelaw enforcement.

Not sure why you include 'private' in the opening line. Aren't most railway staff employed by a 'private' company ?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

PCSO powers depend on what's been granted to them by the Chief Constable of their force. For example, BTP PCSOs have quite wide ranging powers compared to geographical force PCSOs.

The Byelaws allow for any authorised person to enforce them. I'm not going to go into incredible detail but the byelaws do allow authorised persons to physically remove people from railway property should that be needed, and demand names and addresses.

I haven't had the time to see what provisions are given to servants of the railway in the various Acts of Parliament.

 

[DeRobeck]

I saw one of these guys on a Merseyrail service recently collaring the person I was sitting next to. He had put one of his feet on the metal frame between the opposite seats, which is against Merseyrail by-laws. He was a young man, seemingly very respectable and totally apologetic. I expected the security man to just give him a telling off, but he took it very seriously, arrested him with the customary "you do not have to say anything" and filled out a wad of paperwork. So I assume that the guy was fined. He took it well and continued to be polite and apologetic. I hate people putting their feet on seats, but this wasn't a particularly bad example so I thought that a telling off might have been reasonable, but I guess these guys must be following a zero-tolerance policy.

 

[John55]

I saw one of these guys on a Merseyrail service recently collaring the person I was sitting next to. He had put one of his feet on the metal frame between the opposite seats, which is against Merseyrail by-laws. He was a young man, seemingly very respectable and totally apologetic. I expected the security man to just give him a telling off, but he took it very seriously, arrested him with the customary "you do not have to say anything" and filled out a wad of paperwork. So I assume that the guy was fined. He took it well and continued to be polite and apologetic. I hate people putting their feet on seats, but this wasn't a particularly bad example so I thought that a telling off might have been reasonable, but I guess these guys must be following a zero-tolerance policy.

Putting feet on seats is not allowed on any train. Merseyrail enforce the policy as when they asked their passengers what they would like improved about the service the passengers highest priority was "stop people putting feet on seats".

The sooner other TOCs follow their example the better.

Given the extensive publicity and hundreds of prosecutions I am surprised you are unaware of it.

 

[island]

You cannot be arrested for putting your feet on the seats unless one of the SOCPA criteria apply. It would seem to me that they don't.

 

[maniacmartin]

I'm not sure what you're referring to by a metal bar between seats. Does it constitute part of the seat?

 

[Silv1983]

You cannot be arrested for putting your feet on the seats unless one of the SOCPA criteria apply. It would seem to me that they don't.

And not forgetting unless it's an indictable or either way offence someone who isn't a constable cannot arrest full stop. I doubt "feet-on-a-seat" would carry more than 6 months in prison!

 

[vjm1975]

I'm not sure what you're referring to by a metal bar between seats. Does it constitute part of the seat?

Posters on Merseyrail trains suggest that it does constitute part of the seat. Merseyrail prosecute anyone caught with their feet on the seats (and the metal bar between the seats).

More often than not though, from what I have seen at least, the enforcement officers normally ask people to remove their feet and leave it at that, unless they catch them again on the same journey with feet on seats.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

They are from Carlisle Group, who have a partnership with Merseyrail to improve safety (on the cheap).

I am surprised that Carlisle Group have lowered their costings (and subsequent profit margins) when this partnership with Merseyrail was being made the basis of any contract, from your comment "on the cheap". How long does the existing contract run and how much finance will Merseyrail be having to budget to meet the costs of same ? Do you know which other companies were involved in the bidding for the existing contract ?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

You cannot be arrested for putting your feet on the seats unless one of the SOCPA criteria apply. It would seem to me that they don't.

He is confusing being cautioned and detained with being arrested.

And not forgetting unless it's an indictable or either way offence someone who isn't a constable cannot arrest full stop. I doubt "feet-on-a-seat" would carry more than 6 months in prison!

That is incorrect. Any civilian has a common law power of arrest for the loosely defined "breach of the peace". This could, for example, be for deliberate damage to property.

 

[island]

On the other hand, the only thing anyone (even a constable) may do after arresting someone for a breach of the peace is to forthwith bring the person before a magistrate whose only remedy is to bind him over to keep the peace.

(In practice, a constable arresting someone to prevent a further breach of the peace might drive him a mile down the road and let him go.)

Note that this post is posted under the law of England and Wales.

 

[Prairie_5542]

Carlisle Security provide Enforcement Officers on the Greater Anglia network. These came in when National Express held the franchise. Bit surreal as now Merseyrail and GA, which are both Abellio franchises have them! They do tell people off for having their feet on seats, even if the passenger has put a newspaper under their feet, whilst on the seat.

 

[Silv1983]

He is confusing being cautioned and detained with being arrested.


That is incorrect. Any civilian has a common law power of arrest for the loosely defined "breach of the peace". This could, for example, be for deliberate damage to property.

Yes they do.... but my remarks was in reference to the SOCPA and "Feet on a seat" comment/example - to which BOP wouldn't apply.

 

[Stigy]

He is confusing being cautioned and detained with being arrested.
.

Not even being detained as he would have been free to leave at any time, even under caution.

Whilst on the powers subject, should bear in mind that for revenue matters, an authorised person has the power to arrest under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 if somebody wont supply their name and address. They may be detained until brought before reasonable justice {ie; police}. TOCs tend not to tell staff this as they dont want their staff nicking the punters! Also, once you've got somebody under arrest you are reasponsible for their welfare, which is obviously a big responsibility.

Most rail enforcement staff have far more powers than most PSCOs, even BTP ones in certain places.

 

[island]

In fact, I gather companies are instructing their staff not to use the power of arrest/detention.

 

[Stigy]

In fact, I gather companies are instructing their staff not to use the power of arrest/detention.

That may be the case in a lot of cases, and probably would be the response if staff were to put it to their management.

At the end of the day, as a Police Officer a big part of your role is arresting people, and therefore you have the backing of your employer and the law. As rail staff, at best you have the backing of the law. Chances are, to avoid bad publicity etc, a TOC would sooner sack their staff.

 

[reb0118]

That is incorrect. Any civilian has a common law power of arrest for the loosely defined "breach of the peace". This could, for example, be for deliberate damage to property.

From a Scottish perspective any person has the right to arrest any other person whom they witness committing a crime at common law with the exception of the common law crime of "breach of the peace".

You may also arrest any person that you suspect of committing a crime at common law having been informed by a credible witness of the facts.

I believe that that is the case to stop "breach of the peace" offences escalating into much more serious affairs - e.g. allegations of assault &c..

 

[Westboy]

In fact, I gather companies are instructing their staff not to use the power of arrest/detention.

Security guards are always taught to avoid arrestng eople where possible, and for good reason.

One of the major differences between an arrest by a sworn constable and a "citizens arrest" by someone else is that the constable is immune from claims against them of false imprisonment (provided regulations are followed). An ordinary citizen is not.

Incidentaly, it always worth in any circumstance in which a private citizen in any capacity wishe to detain you in any way to ask them to clarify of they are arresting you and provide written evidence of that. If they don't, simply leave.

 

[reb0118]

Incidentally, it always worth while in any circumstances in which a private citizen in any capacity wishes to detain you in any way to ask them to clarify of why they are arresting you and provide written evidence of that. If they don't, simply leave.

Whilst I agree that you have the right to know why you have been arrested I do not think it correct (or indeed practical to supply) that you require written proof.

The point about being under arrest is that you no longer have the right to leave - the arrestor may physically detain you. NB a private citizen may have to justify this at a later date however. Again NB the suspect having no charge to answer or indeed being found innocent later does not in itself negate the citizens arrest.

 

[Stigy]

...and provide written evidence of that. If they don't, simply leave.

Interesting.

Not practical unless you carry the relevant legislation about with you. Under what legislation is this right written? That question was rhetorical, by the way.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Looking at recent thread postings, are there many differences under the Laws of England/Wales and the Laws of Scotland on the matter of powers vested in a person who wishes to make the said "citizens arrest".

If there are, can these be detailed in a posting for the benefit for any members who read this particular thread and are unsure of any differences.

 

[rogger13]

And not forgetting unless it's an indictable or either way offence someone who isn't a constable cannot arrest full stop. I doubt "feet-on-a-seat" would carry more than 6 months in prison!

If SOCAP applies, you can arrest for anything.Twas a big change a couple of years ago.