Buzz Buzz?

[Jonfun]

OK, maybe a bit harsh and your scenario is completely different and a mistake and a breach of safety that was obvious, I really do get peeved with enthusiasts being what I would call "jobsworths" when they know just a small bit on the operation of trains, I see it far too often and have had this stuff first hand, I was questioned and downloaded once because a jobsworth spotter posted I was actually speeding when in fact I wasn't as he didn't know the linespeed and has an inacurate GPS device, I have had spotters approach me and question my driving style because they have a class 67 on BVE, I have had spotters question me on the validation of the route I was taking and asked me if NR were aware that I was travelling down a goods line the list is endless and this is why I have a harsh response, I am sorry 150222 but you do not have enough knowledge to question a train drivers actions and ask whether they could be in trouble for something you think was wrong when in fact there was nothing wrong with the process.

Maybe you can see why I react like I do when these subjects arise!

I have nothing against enthusiasts in general and most of them are decent people and I do chat to them, for the ones that know me on here they can confirm this, however some are just annoying!!!!!!!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I do agree with your comment just read my post above and my response may be a bit clearer

Oh aye, I know exactly how trying certain 'enthusiasts' can be - working on a preserved line means that whilst trying to carry out my duties I come into contact with more than your average amount of people who think they know best, because they drive trains on msts/watch railway vids on youtube/have a mate's uncle's son's brother who was a guard ten years ago etc, and the ones who think they're gods gift to railways because they were stood on the end of a platform with a notebook since my parents were in nappies. :roll:

Equally it must be frustrating to have spotters immediately decide you're in the wrong - unless as you say there was a clear breach of safety (which is highly unlikely), to have some unqualified ned deciding that you're speeding is ridiculous - I'd hope that noone on here would even consider doing such a thing.

Though, I do think there's a difference between the OP here and what you describe above. More than anything, he's just inquisitive and wondering about what happens. I could name certain occasions on this forum where certain members (one now banned) have acted in the way you're suggesting. You'd think as enthusiasts, people should be enthusiastic and not trying to get people in trouble?

Like I say, don't think I've got anything against you TDK - I'm sure you're a highly professional driver (as the vast majority are) and I enjoy reading your contributions to the board, I just think perhaps you were a tad harsh to the chap this time. We all know that he's making a bit of a mountain out of a molehill, but he doesn't, and I think it's easier just to say that than have a bit of a rant at him.

Cheers,

Jon

 

[150222]

Alright, Maybe I asked the question wrong however I do not intend to get anyone into trouble. As I say I only asked as I had never known a train to move before the buzz back was given. TDK you are of course entitled to your opinion about me however I am not what you would describe as a 'jobsworth' and would never interupt a driver to say they were doing something wrong. Although on this occasion I didn't really need to ask the question in the past I have seen some possiblly serious breaches of safety including a conductor opening doors that are not on the platform in the dark and cab doors being left open. If I feel it is a safety issue I will report it however not to the driver (as he needs to drive) and I certainly would not get anyone into hot water just because they broke the rules slightly. I apologise for my question.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Some drivers don't buzz back at all. To be honest I don't think it's that important but I could be wrong.

Lime St. Drivers are famous for it, it is only an acknowledgment but I still like to know that the driver has heard me.


and on a side note I really couldn't give a rats a**e if people think I am unprofessional as I always do my job correctly and safely, the only opinions that matter to me are from my bosses as they keep me in a job lol

 

[Pumbaa]

Alright, Maybe I asked the question wrong however I do not intend to get anyone into trouble.

You gave no specific examples and there is no need for you to apologise. It was a valid and acceptable question.

 

[Hydro]

On the Cambrian, at certain locations, the driver will give the guard two on the buzzer to indicate that (s)he has the road and the guard will not give two on the buzzer until they have heard this even though platform duties may be complete and the doors may be closed. This is to prevent guards giving two against an End of Authority (stop signal everywhere else)

This used to happen on the NMT before primary driver/crew comms went over to radio. It's a DOO train for Rulebook purposes, but operationally, the driver can't set off until the crew gives the nod that they and the train are ready to do so. Sometimes the driver would give two on the buzzer to let the crew know they had the road, and the crew would two back once they were ready.

 

[Pumbaa]

My question is can a driver get in trouble for doing that? Or am I fussing about nothing?

Maybe the op should have asked what the protocol is instead of questioning a professional and the process without having the knoeldge to question it. He should have asked what the protocol is before quoting what a driver did or did not do - as I said as a passenger none of his business

He questioned whether that was correct procedure rather than the professionalism of the individual. It certainly was not worthy of the response you gave further upthread. Like it or not, anyone in any position should expect to be questioned about procedure. I may not like the fact that when I release data as part of my job, sceptical people will ask to see the correspondence that led to or may have influenced my conclusions, and I could say "it is none of your business what correspondence the analyst and I have had". But I don't I routinely set about outlining the (correct) procedure followed.

 

[Kneedown]

So do 101s

I must confess i worked on a good few types of first gen DMU in BR days and all have been fitted with drivers buzzer in the cab. As long as i've been on the railway it's been a rule book requirement for the Driver to acknowledge the Guards buzz's.

 

[LCC106]

I apologise for my question.

I see no need to apologise. For what it's worth, I too think you're being completely over the top TDK. People learn by asking questions and I suspect I'll have a lot to ask when I start my training (and for months to come!)

Yes, I work on a heritage railway and yes, I get lots of questions ranging from the sensible to the downright bizarre, but hey - people want to learn and should be encouraged to.

I must say that whilst I find many of the threads and posts on this forum useful, there are times when I really do wonder... :roll:

 

[Kneedown]

I apologise for my question.

The only daft question is the one you dont ask.

I can see where both you and TDK are coming from. Sometimes though, we lose all context of a question or point of view when writing it out as opposed to asking it face to face, and it comes across as sounding other than intended.
I myself have found this out in the past, especially when writing a hurried post on my phone.

Carry on asking!

 

[BestWestern]

Just to add my tuppence-worth, on our TOC it's standard procedure for Drivers to return the buzzes. However, there is the odd time when they forget, but it's not something I would ever feel the need to make any fuss over. Some will buzz straight away, others will let the brake off, others will open her up first, and sometimes you'll be halfway down the platform before you get it back! So long as we're moving off, I can safely assess that the Driver got the message!

The views on whether it is simply an acknowledgement of the Guard's RTS, or actually the Driver indicating that the train is fit to move, are quite interesting. It's a fair quesiton, and probably one that will persist forever, but in my view it makes sense for the Driver to get traction first since no return buzz gives the Guard a clue that all is not well.

 

[AlexS]

Should be easy lay down to rest that first gen DMUs had buzzers as it's impossible for the driver to send 3-3 or 5 back to the guard without one and therefore the code wouldn't make much sense

Whereas Southern EMUs never did have the facility for the driver to respond to the guard on the bell but did, I believe, provide a Loudaphone so contact was always available.

 

[TDK]

The views on whether it is simply an acknowledgement of the Guard's RTS, or actually the Driver indicating that the train is fit to move, are quite interesting. It's a fair quesiton, and probably one that will persist forever, but in my view it makes sense for the Driver to get traction first since no return buzz gives the Guard a clue that all is not well.

The rules are that any bizzer code sent to the driver bar the door test one should be acknowledged by the driver by repeating the code back, this is in the rule book and this is why it is done. And yes, it is always better to make sure you have traction first before repeating back the 2 on the buzzer.

 

[455driver]

Lime St. Drivers are famous for it, it is only an acknowledgment but I still like to know that the driver has heard me.

Surely the train pulling away would be a bit of a clue that the driver has heard you.

I always buzz back except when on a 455 and Doris is doing her announcements, if I try and buzz during them it just shuts her up (a good thing) but wont buzz, I then have to wait a few seconds for the system to clear before the buzzer will work but then Doris starts all over again from the start (a bad thing).

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Surely the train pulling away would be a bit of a clue that the driver has heard you.

I always buzz back except when on a 455 and Doris is doing her announcements, if I try and buzz during them it just shuts her up (a good thing) but wont buzz, I then have to wait a few seconds for the system to clear before the buzzer will work but then Doris starts all over again from the start (a bad thing).

rules are there for a reason, 150/1's are the perfect example,also what if the drivers buzzer is broken? we have to follow the rules set out in the rule book, if people can't may I suggest getting a new job?

 

[dk1]

Where i work up until a few years ago many drivers did not acknowledge the guards buzzer. That has all changed since the introduction of OTMR. We now even get picked up on a download for moving the power controller before recieving the second buzz-buzz from the conductor.

 

[Minilad]

At XC we are encouraged to return the two on the buzzer before taking power. On a download you would be given a nod in the right direction if you were seen to be taking power before giving the two.
We get 1-2 for close doors. You close the doors then return 1-2. Then 2 and you return 2 and take power

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I always take power before returning the buzzer, but it is something which happens in the same movement. There is a noticeable delay between the power handle moving and the wheels turning, it varies between types of traction but it is there on all of them. That second or two where nothing is happening is the time I use to respond to the bell/buzzer. I have never been pulled up about it during a cab ride or from a download.

 

[boing_uk]

I am sorry 150222 but you do not have enough knowledge to question a train drivers actions and ask whether they could be in trouble for something you think was wrong when in fact there was nothing wrong with the process.

Maybe you can see why I react like I do when these subjects arise!

If I were to take that attitude when people criticise me in my job, it would be a sad day and probably time for me to leave.

"Why dont I get more green time" "Why do I have to wait when there is nothing else coming" "Why cant I get a green light all the way along" "Your traffic lights are s**t" "you're not allowed to do that" "these lights are dangerous". There are (usually) always valid reasons and explanations for these issues and just taking the time to explain the issue is the best I can do.

Taking the attitude of "well I know my job better than you do so it is none of your business" would not win me any friends, makes my job that little bit harder and me a little bit bitterer each and every time.

My job is just as safety critical as your job and every time there is an accident at one of my junctions, my actions and procedures come under the microscope. If I make an error of judgement, people run in to each other and maybe even be killed. I can be hauled in front of the courts and held personally accountable for my actions as the competent engineer in my organisation. But I do not regard my position - like some operational rail staff do - as some kind of magical position of glory. People will always have an opinion on how I should be doing my job - after all they are road users so they *know* how it should be done, can be done, and that I am doing it wrong.

But there is no need to get aggressively defensive about it; it achieves little except to make one look like an arrogant boob.

 

[notadriver]

By that measure all jobs are as safety critical as a train driver. If the tesco shelf stacker doesn't pile their tins properly, they could fall down. People could be hurt, if one fell on a baby even killed!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

By that measure all jobs are as safety critical as a train driver. If the tesco shelf stacker doesn't pile their tins properly, they could fall down. People could be hurt, if one fell on a baby even killed!

There are hundreds of safety critical jobs. Train driving is not the only one. I'd certainly class junction design and engineering as safety critical.


Sent from my iPhone 4 using Tapatalk

 

[boing_uk]

By that measure all jobs are as safety critical as a train driver. If the tesco shelf stacker doesn't pile their tins properly, they could fall down. People could be hurt, if one fell on a baby even killed!

By that same measure, perhaps train drivers should be paid the same as shelf stacker's at Tesco.

 

[notadriver]

I think a traffic engineers job in terms of what is produced is safety critical. But is actually doing the job sitting at a PC safety critical? Of course not. It doesn't matter if a traffic engineer falls asleep in front of his PC.

 

[TDK]

Taking the attitude of "well I know my job better than you do so it is none of your business" would not win me any friends, makes my job that little bit harder and me a little bit bitterer each and every time.

But there is no need to get aggressively defensive about it; it achieves little except to make one look like an arrogant boob.

No agression, not offensive and to the point! I never said my job is better than anyones and to be honest if I came up to you and questioned you about your job and what you were doing and would you get into trouble for doing what you were doing and I didn't have either the training or the knowledge to comment on your job you would of course say to me " thanks for that" wouldn't you

 

[notadriver]

By that same measure, perhaps train drivers should be paid the same as shelf stacker's at Tesco.

But they aren't and their official average salary is more than a traffic engineers!

 

[TDK]

At XC we are encouraged to return the two on the buzzer before taking power. On a download you would be given a nod in the right direction if you were seen to be taking power before giving the two.
We get 1-2 for close doors. You close the doors then return 1-2. Then 2 and you return 2 and take power

I feel this is the safest method XC because if the guard needs to give you one on the buzzer you will not conflict if you return the 2 immediately, different TOC's have different methods and there are for's and againsts for both. for example.

If you give 2 back immediately when you go to take power you may not be abale to! and if you don't you may miss one on the buzzer if the guard needs to stop you. However, as previously mentioned any buzzer code given by the guard needs to be returned unless it's the 3-2-1 door test code.

 

[Minilad]

Please don't start the train drivers salary argument again. We all know it ends up getting messy !!

 

[notadriver]

No agression, not offensive and to the point! I never said my job is better than anyones and to be honest if I came up to you and questioned you about your job and what you were doing and would you get into trouble for doing what you were doing and I didn't have either the training or the knowledge to comment on your job you would of course say to me " thanks for that" wouldn't you

Agreed. In fact question / criticise any driver (car,lorry,bus etc) about their driving and you're probably not going to get a positive response!

 

[boing_uk]

No agression, not offensive and to the point! I never said my job is better than anyones and to be honest if I came up to you and questioned you about your job and what you were doing and would you get into trouble for doing what you were doing and I didn't have either the training or the knowledge to comment on your job you would of course say to me " thanks for that" wouldn't you

As I said in my previous post, I get it every week - most often two or three times and probably once a month or so in various sections of the local rag. I know the limitations of my network and I know why things are the way they are.

I cannot expect others to know the same - heck I have the same frustrations in other towns where things are not done the way *I* would personally do them. But I accept that and ignore it, after briefly going "Ohh for f**ks sake why dont they..." and then remembering my own network has the same underlying problems.

If I fall asleep at my UTC desk then no, no-one is going to be injured, except my pride when I am mocked by colleagues. However if I make a mistake on street when setting signal intergreens, then yes it could get messy. I once left a set of signals in manual all red - back in my younger days of course - while working nights with slot cutters and a collision occurred due to obvious driver frustration, with two children injured as a direct result of my mistake. It was touch and go whether I would be charged with professional negligence after being interviewed by the Police, as I have a legal duty of care to the public to ensure that my installations are safe.

One could argue that it falling asleep at the controls of a train is not an issue nowadays either. The train will stop after no input from the vigilance device, or overrunning TPWS for example. Driver fatigue however is another totally different matter to completely falling asleep as function is degraded rather than completely stopped.

As for train drivers pay, my comment was purely tongue in cheek, it wasnt a dig at the profession . I am not jealous of drivers pay - I do my job where I do and for the money I get because I like it and thoroughly enjoy it. Plus I am not far off the same salary anyway, have more flexibility in hours and can take a **** and go for a fag whenever I want and go to the pub Friday lunchtimes. For instance I am currently working now monitoring my network - from my living room, with my network status diagrams (think of them as a bit like a rail signalling map) and CCTV images up on my 55" TV, with Freemasons blasting out of my stereo - perhaps to the chagrin of the neighbours, but hey ho.

Why would I want to change any of that, for a few extra quid? Not today, Josephine.

The point of my original post was that in any public facing profession, there will always be people who think they know your job better than you. The fact that they don't makes it all the more fun and the best bit you dont have to be arrogant about it either.

The OP asked a question and TDK's reply was in all honesty unjustifiably marinaded in very acidic arrogance as to be worthy of a small rebuke that train driving is not a role worthy of worship, but the rather smaller gratitude of just thanks. And I thank the train crew every day for getting me to and from my own cushy, safety critical, always criticised job.

 

[Harlesden]

While on the subject of buzz buzz, it is totally routine on London Overground for there to be a delay of 3-4 seconds between the driver's acknowledgment and the train actually starting to move. It would appear from this thread that this is unusual and perhaps unique to London Overground.

 

[pendolino]

While on the subject of buzz buzz, it is totally routine on London Overground for there to be a delay of 3-4 seconds between the driver's acknowledgment and the train actually starting to move. It would appear from this thread that this is unusual and perhaps unique to London Overground.

It takes me about 3-4 seconds to get moving too (on a 377). When I stop at a station, I put the master switch to neutral and the brake to step 2. When I get 2 bells, I return 2 and only then does the master switch go to forward. Then the CPBC goes to power notch 1, but I hold the hill start button for a second or so as I don't want to roll back thank you very much. So overall it takes 3-4 seconds to get moving, but I'm quite happy with that as it seems a safe way to do it. And it may be that this is how LOROL have been taught to do it too.