Bus Manufacturer News & Discussion

[Blindtraveler]

So by and large it is as I suspected, Alexander Dennis having a bit of a strop and throwing numbers around to vindicate themselves. I do have sympathy for those whose jobs mail may not be affected, but perhaps they should instead be capitalising on the fact that they still are building diesel double deckers for all the many, many routes that are a long way off electrification yet because of pure impracticality

 

[MCR247]

Can we even afford to subsidise vehicle manufacturers? The CCP seems to have quite a bit of money to splurge on that kind of business.

I’d argue that’s also down to choices but I’ll leave it there to avoid going off topic

 

[Energy]

I didn't realise there were only two diesel double-decker bus models in production

Yes, Volvo stopped offering the B5TL and B5LH. Optare/Switch don't seem to offer the diesel Metrodecker, not that it got orders anyway.

(besides the tri-axle MCV Evoseti).

I forgot about that, the B8L is still offered.

Wrightbus have certainly had a big break since they launched their series of EVs.
In Leicester, the city council bought Yutongs for their 'pet' routes of the park and ride, Orbital, Hospital Hopper and Hop, but then Arriva and First decided to order Wright EVs instead en masse. I find the uniformity rather striking!

Indeed, even Stagecoach has bought some.

So by and large it is as I suspected, Alexander Dennis having a bit of a strop and throwing numbers around to vindicate themselves.

They’ve gone from being really the only kid on the block, when Wrightbus was facing issues, to several fierce competitors.

they should instead be capitalising on the fact that they still are building diesel double deckers for all the many, many routes that are a long way off electrification yet because of pure impracticality

It’s not that big a market anymore. First aren’t buying any new diesel buses, Arriva hasn’t purchased many new diesels aside from some B8RLE Evoras, National Express West Midlands/Coventry isn’t buying any new diesels, London isn’t buying any new diesels…

Some routes can’t be done on electric but the big groups will be moving their displaced diesels onto them. They’ve got loads of E400mmcs with many years ahead.

Remaining diesel orders are mostly Stagecoach and the small coach hire firms, who only buy a few vehicles.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I still think there's actually quite a few big orders to come yet, whilst some of the major cities won't want any more diesel. The first of the MMC Will be 10 years old soon and it took a while for them to be ordering quantity anyway so I still can see plenty of work for them

 

[SLTRegular]

I don't understand how Yutong have such a big market share when the standard of their buses is abysmal. High floor for 50 percent of the bus is so poor in this day and age. There have been refusals in Australia from some operators to accept them due to their poor design for the elderly and high volume of stepped seats.

 

[Snow1964]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese government subsidises Yutong like they do other vehicle manufacturers, which would give them a rather unfair advantage.

They certainly helped build the (massive) factory.

Wrightbus have had tens of millions in subsidy over last decade too (even if name subsidy wasn't used, instead development grants, training grants, Northern Ireland office funds, business rates credits etc). They are listed in the notes to annual accounts which Companies House publish, although often hard to spot when there are multiple companies in a group and grants spread between entities.

I think ADL have also received plenty of indirect subsidy funds like this too over time.

 

[Eyersey468]

I don't understand how Yutong have such a big market share when the standard of their buses is abysmal. High floor for 50 percent of the bus is so poor in this day and age. There have been refusals in Australia from some operators to accept them due to their poor design for the elderly and high volume of stepped seats.

We don't operate Yutongs so I've no experience of them though I've heard a lot of good things about the build quality of them

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

I don't understand how Yutong have such a big market share when the standard of their buses is abysmal. High floor for 50 percent of the bus is so poor in this day and age. There have been refusals in Australia from some operators to accept them due to their poor design for the elderly and high volume of stepped seats.

They are affordable, reliable and have good range and are probably the best bus from a passenger comfort level

 

[Goldfish62]

We don't operate Yutongs so I've no experience of them though I've heard a lot of good things about the build quality of them

Indeed. I never hear a bad word about them from operators (unlike a certain other manufacturer). There have a few honest comments from senior industry people on LinkedIn recently about ADL v Yutong build quality.

 

[Hyebone]

Indeed. I never hear a bad word about them from operators (unlike a certain other manufacturer). There have a few honest comments from senior industry people on LinkedIn recently about ADL v Yutong build quality.

From a passenger perspective, the Yutongs are phenomenal.

Compared to the rattlebox that is the BYD Enviro200EV, the Yutongs are (mostly) without rattles.

 

[Trainman40083]

But are they?

ADL and Wrights have had plenty of indirect "subsidy" in the past.

The issue of "subsidy" is interesting. I'm trying to recall what EU rules were on that.

 

[computerSaysNo]

There have a few honest comments from senior industry people on LinkedIn recently about ADL v Yutong build quality.

Compared to the rattlebox that is the BYD Enviro200EV, the Yutongs are (mostly) without rattles.

The issue of build quality with certain manufacturers is well-known and long-standing, so I don't understand why nothing has been done about it at the manufacturer?
If it's stuff like plastic panels flexing and vibrating, there are simple things that can be done to reduce that such as extruding a grid shape on the back of the panel (the side passengers don't see) to give it more strength. Stuff like screws coming loose - from what I've heard it's possible to get screws which lock in which prevents them working loose? Or just change the designs of the panels slightly to incorporate clips which go directly on to the supporting structure?

Screws coming loose is a problem I've noticed with Lothian Buses B5TL/E400MMCs, with the panels at the top of the stairs in particular. If I see a loose screw or one about to fall out then I'll either hand tighten it back in, or if I can't then I'll hand it to the driver, but ideally someone would go round with a screwdriver and tighten them all! (I'd even volunteer to do that, unpaid, but I don't think it would be allowed (my only reason is that I'm an enthusiast with too much spare time! ))

 

[Leyland Bus]

I think everything sadly boils down to cost. Compare those Enviros above with buses built 40 years ago and there's absolutely no comparison. Alexander's were once a byword for quality but as with everything, profits matter more...

 

[Goldfish62]

I think everything sadly boils down to cost. Compare those Enviros above with buses built 40 years ago and there's absolutely no comparison. Alexander's were once a byword for quality but as with everything, profits matter more...

Except the last two years of published accounts show that ADL is making a significant loss.

Another factor must be that although ADL got off to a running start with EVs due to their partnership with BYD, especially with the early boost from the London market when the only competition was Switch (least said about that the better!), now that partnership is dissolved they're very late to the game with their own product. A lot of operators are clearly content with their choice of EVs from the likes of Yutong, Wrightbus and Volvo/MCV, with no wish to switch manufacturer. A recent lost customer is RATP London, who currently have an all-ADL/BYD EV fleet, but for their first new bus order for a couple of years are buying Kite Electroliners.

 

[Leyland Bus]

Except the last two years of published accounts show that ADL is making a significant loss.

Another factor must be that although ADL got off to a running start with EVs due to their partnership with BYD, especially with the early boost from the London market when the only competition was Switch (least said about that the better!), now that partnership is dissolved they're very late to the game with their own product. A lot of operators are clearly content with their choice of EVs from the likes of Yutong, Wrightbus and Volvo/MCV, with no wish to switch manufacturer. A recent lost customer is RATP London, who currently have an all-ADL/BYD EV fleet, but for their first new bus order for a couple of years are buying Kite Electroliners.

So even with the clear cheapness, they're in the red... very interesting... I agree with your comments but it does make me wonder how things might pan out for them? Could they be another of a long line of bus manufacturers to be on the slow road to extinction?

 

[m79900]

So even with the clear cheapness, they're in the red... very interesting... I agree with your comments but it does make me wonder how things might pan out for them? Could they be another of a long line of bus manufacturers to be on the slow road to extinction?

I would have thought that if they did go bust or come close, the government would step in an offer some form of incentive to operators to buy ADL products. They're the biggest bus builder in the country, and employ a significant number of people, so I doubt they'd let them go under. Trentbarton's new Enviro200s feel fairly well built anyway.

 

[Bungle965]

I would have thought that if they did go bust or come close, the government would step in an offer some form of incentive to operators to buy ADL products.

I wouldn’t be so sure there would be much of an intervention, as a recent example the government haven’t for example stepped in to assist Harland & Wolff who are in pretty dire need of assistance now.

 

[Goldfish62]

I wouldn’t be so sure there would be much of an intervention, as a recent example the government haven’t for example stepped in to assist Harland & Wolff who are in pretty dire need of assistance now.

I don't think the issue with Harland & Wolff was that the government is opposed to intervention, as has been proven with Port Talbot, but that the recovery plan presented to the government in return for a bailout wasn't sufficiently robust, with a high risk of public money being wasted.

 

[Bungle965]

I don't think the issue with Harland & Wolff was that the government is opposed to intervention, as has been proven with Port Talbot, but that the recovery plan presented to the government in return for a bailout wasn't sufficiently robust, with a high risk of public money being wasted.

It’s a fair point yes, something which could be entirely possible in this scenario also.

 

[MotCO]

I would have thought that if they did go bust or come close, the government would step in an offer some form of incentive to operators to buy ADL products.

Maybe stipulate that ZEBRA funds can only be spent on British products? Or BSIP purchases can only be British. I'm sure some mainland European countries somehow found a way to favour native manufacturers, and now we've left the EU, surely this should be simpler.

 

[Blindtraveler]

You couldn't incentivise me to buy that junk I'm afraid

 

[Bungle965]

Maybe stipulate that ZEBRA funds can only be spent on British products? Or BSIP purchases can only be British. I'm sure some mainland European countries somehow found a way to favour native manufacturers, and now we've left the EU, surely this should be simpler.

If the British product is inferior to that of its European/Worldwide counterpart why should it be favoured? Everyone has their own opinion regarding that of Yutong (other manufacturers also available) but if the price and the quality is right then it’s on the British products to step up to compete.

 

[Energy]

Maybe stipulate that ZEBRA funds can only be spent on British products? Or BSIP purchases can only be British. I'm sure some mainland European countries somehow found a way to favour native manufacturers, and now we've left the EU, surely this should be simpler.

Defining a British product is surprisingly difficult. Yutongs have interior fitout and some other bits done by Pelican in the UK, IIRC it’s 30-40% of the work.

The upcoming ADL E100EV has its body come from China.

Another factor must be that although ADL got off to a running start with EVs due to their partnership with BYD, especially with the early boost from the London market when the only competition was Switch (least said about that the better!), now that partnership is dissolved they're very late to the game with their own product.

ADL aren’t handling the transition well. The E200EV isn’t expected for a while and the BYD models seem no longer available, leaving customers, particularly Stagecoach, ordering from elsewhere. Stagecoach Midlands has ended up ordering a load of Yutongs since it needs them by the end of 2024.

 

[Leyland Bus]

I don't recall the BYD separation being a sudden thing (happily corrected if wrong) so how did AD not have a full line up of replacements ready to roll if it was a conscious decision to bring everything back in house?

 

[Goldfish62]

I don't recall the BYD separation being a sudden thing (happily corrected if wrong) so how did AD not have a full line up of replacements ready to roll if it was a conscious decision to bring everything back in house?

The partnership was always planned to end, that was known among operators a couple of years ago, but I believe it was earlier than expected and as you say, rather sudden.

Incidentally a photo appeared on Facebook yesterday (forget which group) of a just delivered BYD BD11 for GoAhead London in Superloop base livery. So the rumours that GAL were buying them are true.

 

[Leyland Bus]

Hmm, interesting...

To be fair, the BYD/ADLCitys we have at work (Bee Network Bolton) are lovely drives and any warranty issues, we have someone come to look at the fault pretty darn quickly... We've probably had more gripes with the body than owt else. So I can well imagine afew ops sticking/going with them...

 

[signed]

I'm sure some mainland European countries somehow found a way to favour native manufacturers

It would be a massive breach of open markets and lawsuits would pile up, see the different train procurments that ended up in lawsuits for favouritism (though as far as I know, none to this day were successful)

 

[Goldfish62]

I'm sure some mainland European countries somehow found a way to favour native manufacturers.

I don't really see any of evidence of that. For example, Solaris supply several countries from their factory in Poland, Citaros are found just about everywhere, with later examples tending to built in Turkey and BYD is increasing its presence, using its Hungarian factory. Plus of course Berlin has a large batch of AD E500s and Wright's are supplying Hydroliners to several German locations.

 

[Energy]

Hmm, interesting...

To be fair, the BYD/ADLCitys we have at work (Bee Network Bolton) are lovely drives and any warranty issues, we have someone come to look at the fault pretty darn quickly... We've probably had more gripes with the body than owt else. So I can well imagine afew ops sticking/going with them...

Out of interest, who responds to the warranty call-outs? Is it someone from BYD or ADL?

I wonder if we’ll see ADL return to the “we’ll body anything” strategy, they could potentially offer BYD, Volvo BZL or integral.

ADL severing its relationship with BYD has given ADL another competitor, when they’re struggling from more competitors already. Keeping BYD as a chassis option, and perhaps ADL as the only body option in the UK, may have mitigated this.

 

[Leyland Bus]

Out of interest, who responds to the warranty call-outs? Is it someone from BYD or ADL?

I wonder if we’ll see ADL return to the “we’ll body anything” strategy, they could potentially offer BYD, Volvo BZL or integral.

ADL severing its relationship with BYD has given ADL another competitor, when they’re struggling from more competitors already. Keeping BYD as a chassis option, and perhaps ADL as the only body option in the UK, may have mitigated this.

Warrenty wise, it's actually BYD for their bits and AD for the rest... The BYD guy is a one time, big time, DJ who looks like Paul Wellar!!!

You have just raised an interesting point, why didn't AD keep BYD as a bodying option? Did relations sour, as surely they must have known they were creating a competitor as you say, or perhaps they've gone full blown Leyland with a "we know best, sod you" approach??