Bus Manufacturer News & Discussion

[cnjb8]

Except the last two years of published accounts show that ADL is making a significant loss.

Another factor must be that although ADL got off to a running start with EVs due to their partnership with BYD, especially with the early boost from the London market when the only competition was Switch (least said about that the better!), now that partnership is dissolved they're very late to the game with their own product. A lot of operators are clearly content with their choice of EVs from the likes of Yutong, Wrightbus and Volvo/MCV, with no wish to switch manufacturer. A recent lost customer is RATP London, who currently have an all-ADL/BYD EV fleet, but for their first new bus order for a couple of years are buying Kite Electroliners.

I agree, you also have GoAhead London who are sticking with BYD integrals

 

[Leyland Bus]

I agree, you also have GoAhead London who are sticking with BYD integrals

And Go NorthWest buying Wright Electroliners...

 

[Energy]

Warrenty wise, it's actually BYD for their bits and AD for the rest... The BYD guy is a one time, big time, DJ who looks like Paul Wellar!!!

Bit of a mistake by ADL, BYD handling some warranty bits means BYD is building out a small service network and relationships with operators.

You have just raised an interesting point, why didn't AD keep BYD as a bodying option? Did relations sour, as surely they must have known they were creating a competitor as you say, or perhaps they've gone full blown Leyland with a "we know best, sod you" approach??

If ADL didn’t think themselves as the best maybe they’d sort out the infamous ADL rattles

 

[MotCO]

You have just raised an interesting point, why didn't AD keep BYD as a bodying option?

I had always assumed (my view; no evidence) that AD saw BYD as a quick, short term way into the electric market, before developing their own model. They had previously always produced their own integrals (although also bodying other chassis), and wanted to keep it that way. Also, would an in-house electric not be cheaper than bodying an out-house chassis?

 

[Leyland Bus]

I had always assumed (my view; no evidence) that AD saw BYD as a quick, short term way into the electric market, before developing their own model. They had previously always produced their own integrals (although also bodying other chassis), and wanted to keep it that way. Also, would an in-house electric not be cheaper than bodying an out-house chassis?

Yes, that's all quite true but as @Energy mentioned, they've just added yet another competitor to fight...

 

[scosutsut]

Perhaps BYD view ADL bodies as rattle boxes and feel they can offer better themselves?

There is also the angle that BYD didn't want to continue to give piece of the pie to ADL. I suspect they always intended to establish themselves through the ADL partnership, and always planned to bring their next generation in without ADL involvement.

Arguably they've nothing to lose, if they struggle to sell "pure" BYDs and ADL simultaneously struggle to sell their own product, I'm sure they could revert to new version of the previous arrangement as by that point it would be of mutual benefit.

It's a bit Trojan horse approach but it's a tactic as old as time.

I have a little sympathy for ADL, but they've been selling at volume for quite a time now, but question marks over quality have continued and it appears they've not been profitable. Designing a new product is an expensive business though, is it just the outlay from that perhaps?

I feel what's gone over at Wright's smells extremely fishy politically, but irrespective of that they have re-emerged as a competitor, and, whilst reviews are mixed, there are suggestions that their build quality has improved (and as someone suffering 2017/2018 Wright's vehicles on a regular basis I really hope that is true!!)

Yutong's success probably wasn't factored in by anyone, but it seems completely predictable. They had the right combination of product, price and - via Pelican - service. The first operators loved them and word has spread since.

 

[SLTRegular]

From a passenger perspective, the Yutongs are phenomenal.

Compared to the rattlebox that is the BYD Enviro200EV, the Yutongs are (mostly) without rattles.

Having such a large area with such a steep step is shocking. It's like a role back of dda specification. There was an opposition in Australia to their introduction due the buses they replaced arguably had less steps although they where on entry to the bus.

The aircon isn't good enough for a spring in Sydney I'm dreading a summer with them or maybe they'll be limited use in summer for Diesels or cng buses.

 

[computerSaysNo]

Having such a large area with such a steep step is shocking. It's like a role back of dda specification. There was an opposition in Australia to their introduction due the buses they replaced arguably had less steps although they where on entry to the bus.

Do you have any images of the interior you describe?

One of the things I really like in a bus is a large number of seats accessible with no step, as it makes boarding and alighting much faster where there are people with limited mobility. I actually keep an entry in my phone notepad of vehicles I've been on and how many step-free seats they have (and a record of the total seats).
The best single-deck I've been on so far was a Borders Buses Metrocity which had 23 step-free seats out of a total of 36. The worst single-deck was the Lothian/East Coast Buses B8RLE/Eclipse Urban 3, which has only 8 step-free seats from a total of about 40 (estimating that as I don't have it written down).

 

[SLTRegular]

Do you have any images of the interior you describe?

One of the things I really like in a bus is a large number of seats accessible with no step, as it makes boarding and alighting much faster where there are people with limited mobility. I actually keep an entry in my phone notepad of vehicles I've been on and how many step-free seats they have (and a record of the total seats).
The best single-deck I've been on so far was a Borders Buses Metrocity which had 23 step-free seats out of a total of 36. The worst single-deck was the Lothian/East Coast Buses B8RLE/Eclipse Urban 3, which has only 8 step-free seats from a total of about 40 (estimating that as I don't have it written down).

I'll ask around on the Aus pages these are all dual door and the step starts pretty much at the door which means with two wheelchair bays nearly everyone has to use the high steps.

 

[Mikey C]

The ADL/BDL E200EVs have a significant raised area at the back. I imagine that the batteries take up all that space.

 

[scosutsut]

The worst single-deck was the Lothian/East Coast Buses B8RLE/Eclipse Urban 3, which has only 8 step-free seats from a total of about 40 (estimating that as I don't have it written down).

I'm sat on one right now, it's actually 6 out of 40!

Another interesting observation about them is they have a higher unladen weight than an ECB B5TL/Gemini 3, but are lighter than a B9TL/Gemini 2.

(I don't remember the exact stats, but I was noting them on X6/113 & 124 services as I waited for a late running X5.)

 

[Scotrail88]

Is there any link to the pics of the earlier mentioned BYD at go ahead for super loop ??

 

[Goldfish62]

Is there any link to the pics of the earlier mentioned BYD at go ahead for super loop ??

Afraid not. Such are the vagueries of FB I can't find the original post. The photos were rather poor quality.

 

[busesrusuk]

On display at the Bromley Garage open day today was the London spec Enviro400EV demonstrator. Not yet registered but rumoured to be going to Stagecoach London which makes sense given they actually have some on order. See here:

Alexander Dennis Enviro400EV demo Sep24

Bromley Garage open day, Sep 2024. Tfl spec demonstrator on display in Brimley Garage.

www.flickr.com

 

[Bornin1980s]

I'm sat on one right now, it's actually 6 out of 40!

Another interesting observation about them is they have a higher unladen weight than an ECB B5TL/Gemini 3, but are lighter than a B9TL/Gemini 2.

(I don't remember the exact stats, but I was noting them on X6/113 & 124 services as I waited for a late running X5.)

Must be the weight of the engines.

 

[tramboy]

I'll ask around on the Aus pages these are all dual door and the step starts pretty much at the door which means with two wheelchair bays nearly everyone has to use the high steps.

Being in Australia now and from the UK, it’s the dual door requirement that seems to be the cause of concern. Not something we experience at home as all those delivered are single door.

I am surprised at the layout behind the rear step though , there has been more done in the uk to remove the wheel arch intrusion and have the seats at all the same level that you don’t find here.

From an operator perspective, those in Brisbane were working as well as those back home. No rattles, good build quality. Just the bench seat standard over here still shocks me when you compare all the options you can have in the UK!

 

[Goldfish62]

The ADL/BDL E200EVs have a significant raised area at the back. I imagine that the batteries take up all that space.

Yes, with the remaining batteries in the rear bulkhead and on the roof.

The BYD E400EV is similar and because of the need for a lower ceiling has extremely low headroom at the rear. I've banged my head a few times.

The Kite Electroliner has a low flat floor throughout. Therefore the bulk of the batteries are on the roof, which is why the design looks very top-heavy. The face-lift with the deeper windscreen addresses this to an extent.

 

[dmncf]

My main observation of the BYD E400EV is the comedically low amount of legroom in the downstairs rear seat, combined with the low headroom as you mention.

 

[py_megapixel]

My main observation of the BYD E400EV is the comedically low amount of legroom in the downstairs rear seat, combined with the low headroom as you mention.

Hmm. I have very long legs and I can't say I've noticed a particular issue with those seats. I have to take a pair of seats and sit with my legs sideways but that would also be the case with almost any other bus I've been on. Indeed, the offside front seats on the upper deck of a Gemini are far worse.

The reduced headroom though is certainly noticeable.

 

[computerSaysNo]

I'm sat on one right now, it's actually 6 out of 40!

In my notes I've counted fixed sideways-facing seats too, but not tip-up ones; could this account for the discrepancy? Otherwise you're probably right, and I've probably miscounted.

 

[MotCO]

If ADL didn’t think themselves as the best maybe they’d sort out the infamous ADL rattles

I attended the Bromley running day yesterday, and had the good fortune to ride on DMS1, the first production Fleetline for London (after the XF class). In my youth I rode on them, and they were full of rattles; yesterday the bus was rattle-free and a pleasure to be on. Maybe the owners of DMS1 (the London Bus Museum) can fix ADL's rattles?

 

[scosutsut]

In my notes I've counted fixed sideways-facing seats too, but not tip-up ones; could this account for the discrepancy? Otherwise you're probably right, and I've probably miscounted.

I don't think they have tip downs in the wheelchair/buggy space however it might be my error! There are the two single seats ahead of the wheel arch but both are up steps.

 

[gka472l]

The ADL E400EV demo will be on loan at Arriva Merseyside from 19/9 to 7/10, working from Speke depot on route 204 in Liverpool. It will be wrapped in the Merseytravel 'Metro' livery.....can't post the source as it's on a private FB group.....

 

[fgwrich]

The ADL E400 FCEV was out and about in the Farnborough area this afternoon - I passed it on the A331 heading southbound around 1300.

​

 

[danielnez1]

To add to what has been said about the E400MMC build issues, I've been told that some of the 72 plate batch at Arriva NE required re-wiring and there have been other issues such as cracking windscreens. They do seem to use a lot more plastic than the earlier E400 models inside, and looks like might be a different type too. If the BYD models had similar issues then no doubt it would give BYD further impetus to go it alone.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

I’m just saying, but operators should be buying MCV/Volvo..

Superior vehicles, I’ve only been able to drive some of these a few times but it’s night and day, I also don’t hear bad words about them near half as often.

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

I’m just saying, but operators should be buying MCV/Volvo..

Superior vehicles, I’ve only been able to drive some of these a few times but it’s night and day, I also don’t hear bad words about them near half as often.

To be fair the general consensus is that yutong and Volvo are the best products on the market.

 

[Volvodart]

Wrightbus has received more government funding.

Boost for electric vans and buses backed with investment to drive innovation

The government has announced £88 million of funding has been awarded to 46 innovative projects that will help boost zero emission vehicle tech.

www.gov.uk

Wrightbus (Bamford Bus Company): Delivering an innovative, next-generation, lightweight and energy-efficient battery-electric bus demonstrator, showcasing UK engineering talent on a world-wide scale.

 

[Eyersey468]

I’m just saying, but operators should be buying MCV/Volvo..

Superior vehicles, I’ve only been able to drive some of these a few times but it’s night and day, I also don’t hear bad words about them near half as often.

MCV must have upped their game as the build quality of some of ours is terrible, I drove one of the 67 plate Evosetis when it was a fortnight old and I couldn't believe how poor the build quality was, I honestly thought it was going to fall apart

 

[Jordan Adam]

MCV must have upped their game as the build quality of some of ours is terrible, I drove one of the 67 plate Evosetis when it was a fortnight old and I couldn't believe how poor the build quality was, I honestly thought it was going to fall apart

To be fair they have, build quality on MCVs has progressively got better over the past decade.