Bus events having more focus on newer vehicles

[overthewater]

I recently went to a bus event and was slightly disappointed at the higher lever of newish stock being used for the operations, i.e. stuff from this side of the millennium.

Yes, I know it's been 25 years, but the low floor stuff all felt like vehicles which been in daily use up until recently.

I don't want to put anyone down for the organisation etc, it's a lot of hard work.

I could go back 20 years, and it felt more like buses in perseveration were a lot older. Is this just the changing of the guards? Has anyone else felt like this over the last 20-30 years?

 

[CN12 AWU]

Went to one a while back mostly darts and Olympians even a solo

Missed seeing Atlanteans etc even if I love a dart or a Olympian

 

[TR673]

If it's any consolation I went to an event this year that's been varied in the past, but this time around was all old half cabs and Bristol REs with the only 'modern' bus being one the local operator had brought from their regular fleet.

I think it depends on whether a specific event is aimed more at enthusiasts or a general audience. Families like to see the interesting vintage buses and the owners probably see it more as a social event to discuss their highly polished PD2s and run a couple of outings. This would be your traditional local rally or steam fair type gathering.

Meanwhile followers of the current bus scene today are more likely to be younger and interested in the Olympians and stuff. Some events (low-ish floor etc) are aimed specifically at the newer stock, plus I think certain areas like Yorkshire, London and the North West generally seem to have a glut of more modern preserved vehicles.

 

[Bishopstone]

I guess, like classic cars, the key nostalgia market is ‘stuff I travelled on as a kid’, which for young adults will involve low floor vehicles.

To have gone to school on an RT or similar, you will be 60+, and to have driven one in service, 70+. This is moving into the age range where people are downsizing, divesting their collections of ‘stuff’, and travelling less. Makes me wonder - is there much interest when one of the many preserved RTs comes onto the market?

To my mind, attending these events sporadically, the key types of the 70s and 80s (Atlanteans, Nationals, DMS and Metrobus etc) are relatively lightly represented versus what came before (half cabs) and, increasingly, after. Still, it’s too late to preserve any more, and I’m grateful to the owners who do show the vehicles of my childhood!

 

[Flange Squeal]

I am on the organising committee for a fairly large event (both static vehicles on display and a good number operating free services around the local area) which usually has a good mix of around 100+ vehicles, however what we have in attendance on each given year is very much dependent on what entrants want to bring rather than what we personally want. We have our regulars who always bring something - sometimes the same vehicle each year, or some own more than one so one year they may bring their floor vehicle and the next year they (understandably) want to bring their 60 year older half-cab step entrance bus/coach instead. Then with the other entrants, again it all depends who wants to bring what. We have a cut-off of x number of entrants, with entries after reaching that figure going onto a reserve list. So last year some could have said - especially on the service side - that there were lots of low floor vehicles, but this year some may have said it was much heavier on older vehicles, and all of that was purely down to who entered what each year rather than any input/decision on the part of the organisers.

Last year we had no shortage of modern low floor buses, but this year we initially only had one single low floor entry for service and only a couple more for static display. In the end a couple more were bumped from the reserve list to replace people who had to pull out, and there was an on-the-day substitution when a group's intended vehicle had a last minute fault. So it's not always purely down to the organisers choosing specific vehicles, but rather who enters what each year. That said, as time goes on I guess the percentage of more modern vehicles will naturally increase as the younger generation may want to preserve the vehicles they travelled to school or around on, and perhaps are even able to secure them fresh out of service. They may also have far less interest in taking on older buses they have no recollection of, while the older generation who preserved such vehicles gets older and loses the ability to work on/drive their vehicles and then physically diminish in numbers.

 

[GusB]

I guess, like classic cars, the key nostalgia market is ‘stuff I travelled on as a kid’, which for young adults will involve low floor vehicles.

To have gone to school on an RT or similar, you will be 60+, and to have driven one in service, 70+. This is moving into the age range where people are downsizing, divesting their collections of ‘stuff’, and travelling less. Makes me wonder - is there much interest when one of the many preserved RTs comes onto the market?

I follow quite a few car channels on YouTube and one point I've heard mentioned a few times is that there seems to be a declining interest in veteran and vintage cars, mainly because the generation that preserved them is dying off and there's nobody with sufficient interest to keep them going - perhaps this might be an issue with buses of a similar age in the future.

My main era of interest is 70s and 80s with a bit of early 90s thrown in, while my dad would have mainly have seen half-cabs in his early life.

To my mind, attending these events sporadically, the key types of the 70s and 80s (Atlanteans, Nationals, DMS and Metrobus etc) are relatively lightly represented versus what came before (half cabs) and, increasingly, after. Still, it’s too late to preserve any more, and I’m grateful to the owners who do show the vehicles of my childhood!

I haven't been to any events personally, but from what I've seen in YouTube footage it would seem that those types can be quite well represented. It's not only quite pleasing to see that a fair number of buses from my own local company have been preserved in working condition, but many are examples that I used to travel on regularly.

I do worry about the availability of spares in the future. I believe there is still a fairly healthy market for Gardner spares which caters to the older market - I don't know if there's similar support for the likes of the Leyland O.680. The Cummins B-series engine (and later variants) will likely be catered for as long as they remain in service, but vehicles from this era are more technically sophisticated and it's probably the electrical gubbins that will be more difficult to repair or replace in future.

Overall, though, I think that events need to cater for a variety of tastes. Low-floor stuff doesn't really interest me personally (although I do have a soft-spot for the likes of the Volvo B10RLE which I used to travel on daily in the early 2000s) but there are people who won't ever have known anything else. There's also the issue of accessibility - the introduction of low-floor buses was pivotal in allowing disabled people to travel and it's a part of bus history that should be celebrated.

 

[WibbleWobble]

I follow quite a few car channels on YouTube and one point I've heard mentioned a few times is that there seems to be a declining interest in veteran and vintage cars, mainly because the generation that preserved them is dying off and there's nobody with sufficient interest to keep them going - perhaps this might be an issue with buses of a similar age in the future.

This is something that is regularly said on the Bangers & Cash series - anything pre-war is only going for half or a third of what it is actually worth (often single figure thousands), because the number of people who remember driving them / their parents having one is reducing at quite a rate. Meanwhile, a Jaguar E-type or a "Fast Ford" can go for ridiculous sums of money.

The same is going to happen with bus rallies. Half-cabs don't really do anything for me, but an Atlantean or Olympian would pique my interest as that's what I grew up with and travelled on whenever I was out and about. However, that doesn't mean I don't think there isn't a place for half-cabs, because there are plenty who do want to see them - they are great for the non-enthusiast families in the same way that they love a ride on a steam train; they want to see - and experience if they can get a ride on one - that nostalgic feel of yesteryear - be it a roaring engine, a clippie in period uniform, and the old mechanical ticket machines.

Meanwhile, younger folk often want anything post 1995 - to them, they get their kicks out of a throaty first generation B7RLE or similar. Nonetheless, there are those that do like something a bit older - my 13-year-old gets excited at seeing a first gen Dart because he's never had that experience of one, and really enjoyed a run out on a Volvo Citybus at a recent rally.

 

[stevieinselby]

This is something that is regularly said on the Bangers & Cash series - anything pre-war is only going for half or a third of what it is actually worth (often single figure thousands), because the number of people who remember driving them / their parents having one is reducing at quite a rate. Meanwhile, a Jaguar E-type or a "Fast Ford" can go for ridiculous sums of money.

Counterpoint: a vintage car has no intrinsic worth beyond what people are prepared to pay for it. If that maxes out at £6k then you can't say it is "worth" £15k.

 

[WibbleWobble]

Counterpoint: a vintage car has no intrinsic worth beyond what people are prepared to pay for it. If that maxes out at £6k then you can't say it is "worth" £15k.

It was just referencing the programme - you often hear the auctioneer (who has decades of experience) say that "it should go for a lot more but it won't" not because of what people will pay for it, but because there aren't the numbers engaging in a bidding war; some have only had one or two bid on a car (and I've seen episodes with only one bid!). The thing is, those bidding tend to know the same!

 

[Pyewipecarshed]

Although it does feel odd to see low floor buses preserved it's worth remembering how old some of them are.
For example the first Solo rolled off the production line 27 years ago, and few if any of the earliest ones remain in service.

Personally I think it's a good thing. There was concern around 10-15 years ago that the bus hobby in general was dying out, and that young people were not getting into it. However in the last few years a large number of teens and twenty-somethings have appeared in the hobby, largely fuelled by social media and YouTube.
Those younger people want Dart SLF's, B7RLE's etc. and I'd much rather look at a rally field full of those than at nothing at all!

Interestingly some of the buses that came out of service when the hobby looked to be in the doldrums appear to be under-represented in preservation; for example there are not many step-entrance Darts around in preservation compared to the number that were produced.

 

[TheSmiths82]

I went to one last year in Manchester, they had a varsity of buses from ancient Crossley's, Leyland PD etc but by far the most popular buses people got excited about travelling on were the Olympian, a Fleetline (I think), the first production Leyland National and an Atlantean. They even had a Trident and a B10M but those had to have big stickers on the windscreen saying they were not in public service as they looked so modern.

I also get more excited about the newer stuff because it was what I remember as a kid. The smell of that early 80's Atlantean bought everything back but by the time I was a kid the PD2's etc were already out of service.

 

[Statto]

I went to one last year in Manchester, they had a varsity of buses from ancient Crossley's, Leyland PD etc but by far the most popular buses people got excited about travelling on were the Olympian, a Fleetline (I think), the first production Leyland National and an Atlantean. They even had a Trident and a B10M but those had to have big stickers on the windscreen saying they were not in public service as they looked so modern.

I also get more excited about the newer stuff because it was what I remember as a kid. The smell of that early 80's Atlantean bought everything back but by the time I was a kid the PD2's etc were already out of service.

Saimilar with me, as someone who started going on bus routes from mid 80s, its Atlanteans, Olympians, Metrobuses ecc that i'm more interested in as that's what i remember going on when they were in service with the original operators, the GM Express routes what i remember the most too as thats what i went on back then.

 

[father_jack]

Was the original post about Stroud ??? We went to the pub it was so plastic. Bristol though a few weeks back was excellent for older vehicles.

 

[overthewater]

I should point out I have no issues with the static vehicles on display, they had great selection covering old and new and has always been the case etc etc.

My main point was on the shuttles, at one point for a 2 hour time period it was just 2 low floor buses. I think the bottom line was it didn't feel like healthy mix

Is this because I'm getting older and organisers who have a hard time putting on these wonderful event are trying to cater to everyone and thus this will happen more and more moving forward, and I'm just wondering if other people have had to deal with this over the years?

 

[TheSmiths82]

Is another reason for having newer buses because they are easier to keep on the road? I know some of the older buses can cause issues because some parts have to be made from scratch. I imagine you can still get parts for a 1984 Olympian but a Crossley would be very difficult.

 

[signed]

Mechanically, the older the engine, the easier it will be to work on and keep running, that assumes of course that it's mechanically sane and in one piece. Because it's a very dumb engine, oxygen, fuel (and spark for gas) and those will run.

Of course some parts may need to be machined but for example relatively easy you can get a CAT heavy machinery engine (for example) from the 50s to run. Much easier than a comprable engine from 20 years ago and more recent.

 

[83G/84D]

At bus rallies I like to see anything from my early bus spotting days in the 1980's or older stuff rather than modern buses or coaches still in service with bus operators. Having said that I appreciate these buses and coaches are getting older and more difficult and expensive to maintain plus it costs a lot of money to get vehicles to and from events.
I'm not fussed about seeing more modern low floor buses at events but appreciate they are more to the liking of younger enthusiasts so it must be difficult for the organisers to get a happy balance.

I try to go to themed events featuring older buses where possible or check lists of participants where available before deciding whether to attend or not.

 

[WibbleWobble]

I'm not fussed about seeing more modern low floor buses at events but appreciate they are more to the liking of younger enthusiasts so it must be difficult for the organisers to get a happy balance.

For some operators, they like to send their newer stuff because it allows them to showcase those vehicles.

I remember the few years when Trent Barton attended the Trans Lancs Rally back in the early 2010s - those vehicles were the star attraction in many eyes because they were so different to what was in service in Greater Manchester at the time, with their higher specifications. The regular public (as opposed to enthusiasts) thought they were fantastic and you could hear them talking about how great they were.

 

[Worm]

Saimilar with me, as someone who started going on bus routes from mid 80s, its Atlanteans, Olympians, Metrobuses ecc that i'm more interested in as that's what i remember going on when they were in service with the original operators, the GM Express routes what i remember the most too as thats what i went on back then.

Same for me, I was born just as GM North became Greater Manchester FirstBus so my memories are the 80's era deckers in tomato soup, that's why I'd like to see at a fair.

I suppose its the same as the argument about steam v diesel on preserved lines, to me being younger when I've seen one steam engine I've seen them all, much like a half cab I can't be too interested in them as they all look the same; I wouldn't go to a fair of all 1960's and earlier buses for that reason.

The Bristol Lodekka looks no different to a Routemaster in my eyes. Variety is the spice of life.

 

[JKP]

I do not visit rallies or running days that often due to distance. The last event I attended had a very good spread of vehicles operating from pre war to modern low floor. A couple of years previous, I found myself disappointed at an event, as it was mainly Olympians and late1970s/1980s stuff some of which was not fully renovated. Perhaps organisers could consider an official or even unofficial limit on vehicle entries in eras so that events can cater for all tastes?

 

[muffy]

I should point out I have no issues with the static vehicles on display, they had great selection covering old and new and has always been the case etc etc.

My main point was on the shuttles, at one point for a 2 hour time period it was just 2 low floor buses. I think the bottom line was it didn't feel like healthy mix

Is this because I'm getting older and organisers who have a hard time putting on these wonderful event are trying to cater to everyone and thus this will happen more and more moving forward, and I'm just wondering if other people have had to deal with this over the years?

If it was the same event, I was at towards the end of the day out of 8 trips, 6 were the same 3 low floors vehicles doing 2 trips each including the vehicle that out every weekend. I completely get why we need to have low floor vehicles at events but a better spread of vehicles would of been better.

 

[Tinkerer]

I’ve been thinking about something I saw recently on a show called Bangers & Cash. They were talking about how cars from the 1930s and 40s just aren’t fetching the same high prices at auctions as they once did. The theory they mentioned was that these cars were so popular with buyers who saw them when they were younger, but now that those buyers are aging or no longer around, there’s just less demand. It’s got me wondering, could it be the same for vintage buses?

I know it’s a bit of a stretch, but it’s interesting to think about how the market for these older vehicles might shift as the people who were passionate about them are moving on. There’s still a lot of love for the classics, but I’m starting to wonder if younger collectors, for example, aren’t as drawn to buses from the early to mid-1900s as the older generation was. In my case and being in my 70s, I tend to ignore the rear-engined buses when I visit transport museums. I much prefer to photograph the handsome half-cab buses on display. But that is only because I remember them so well from my plooky youth.

 

[Dwarfer1979]

I’ve been thinking about something I saw recently on a show called Bangers & Cash. They were talking about how cars from the 1930s and 40s just aren’t fetching the same high prices at auctions as they once did. The theory they mentioned was that these cars were so popular with buyers who saw them when they were younger, but now that those buyers are aging or no longer around, there’s just less demand. It’s got me wondering, could it be the same for vintage buses?

I know it’s a bit of a stretch, but it’s interesting to think about how the market for these older vehicles might shift as the people who were passionate about them are moving on. There’s still a lot of love for the classics, but I’m starting to wonder if younger collectors, for example, aren’t as drawn to buses from the early to mid-1900s as the older generation was. In my case and being in my 70s, I tend to ignore the rear-engined buses when I visit transport museums. I much prefer to photograph the handsome half-cab buses on display. But that is only because I remember them so well from my plooky youth.

Unlike cars there are two strands to preserved bus demand, personal ownership & public engagement, and each will have an effect on things. The personal ownership side is moving on with newer vehicles entering preservation as younger owners are buying the buses they remember travelling on in their youth but to the more general public these are just modern buses and not interesting. With public engagement, mostly in the collections and museums, you are trying to attract the general public and to them the interesting old buses are the really old stuff, like steam trains still being the big draw at heritage railways despite most visitors never having been alive when they were in normal service on the main line, to the general public the interesting vehicles are the proper old stuff (mostly half-cabs but some of the early underfloor engined singles retain enough historic feel to qualify) so if you want to attract them you need those vehicles which helps hold up demand.

 

[Ballyheigue]

I must admit I only ever go to these events if they have something different to offer, such as a journey out to somewhere interesting that I've never been to before. I like the Manchester Museum events, but tend to only go to ones where they travel further afield such as to Heaton Park and beyond. The Keighley events for example are becoming more of the same old same old.

 

[Tinkerer]

Unlike cars there are two strands to preserved bus demand, personal ownership & public engagement, and each will have an effect on things. The personal ownership side is moving on with newer vehicles entering preservation as younger owners are buying the buses they remember travelling on in their youth but to the more general public these are just modern buses and not interesting. With public engagement, mostly in the collections and museums, you are trying to attract the general public and to them the interesting old buses are the really old stuff, like steam trains still being the big draw at heritage railways despite most visitors never having been alive when they were in normal service on the main line, to the general public the interesting vehicles are the proper old stuff (mostly half-cabs but some of the early underfloor engined singles retain enough historic feel to qualify) so if you want to attract them you need those vehicles which helps hold up demand.

On the subject of younger bus owners, I overheard conversations on the Dart bus that was taking us from Dunfermline bus station to the Scottish Vintage Bus Museum and it was a group of young men discussing their ownership of buses, some actually had shared ownership. Sadly I never found out what type of buses they owned.

 

[Jordan Adam]

On the subject of younger bus owners, I overheard conversations on the Dart bus that was taking us from Dunfermline bus station to the Scottish Vintage Bus Museum and it was a group of young men discussing their ownership of buses, some actually had shared ownership. Sadly I never found out what type of buses they owned.

There's a good chance i was one of them on the Dart as i recall having a conversation with a follow bus owner about this topic. I have shared ownership of First Aberdeen's X623NSS and Y629RSA. The latter of which i'm assuming is one of the vehicles mentioned earlier in the thread.

I should point out I have no issues with the static vehicles on display, they had great selection covering old and new and has always been the case etc etc.

My main point was on the shuttles, at one point for a 2 hour time period it was just 2 low floor buses. I think the bottom line was it didn't feel like healthy mix

Is this because I'm getting older and organisers who have a hard time putting on these wonderful event are trying to cater to everyone and thus this will happen more and more moving forward, and I'm just wondering if other people have had to deal with this over the years?

We had two consecutive runs with Y629RSA on both days, which even surprised us somewhat albeit in a good way. I think part of the issue with the event in question is there are only a limited number of runs, so its difficult to have a mix of vehicles out at the same time. As i understand it a lot of the later runs were also not returning back to the museum after and therefor were allocated to visiting vehicles. You also have to consider that the owners of the vehicles pay for the fuel to run these shuttle services for free and that some vehicle owners may not be willing to foot that cost. While a lot of older vehicle types have quirks that mean a limited number of people can actually drive them or feel confident driving them on the road. There also tends to be a bias towards visiting vehicles being used on shuttle services due to driver availability, most preserved bus owners are more than happy to drive their bus on a shuttle service whereas the trust running the event may have a limited number of drivers for their own vehicles due to members being required to assist in the running of the event.

I thought the Bridgeton Open Day in October struck the balance quite well particuarly with it having themed tours, but then given the nature and location of that event its much easier to provide a broader range of vehicles as there are much more shuttle runs.

At the end of the day it doesn't really matter what the organisers do there's always going to be the usual complainers either about "everything being half-cab" or "those buses are all too modern" often in reference to a bus that's 40 years old!

I could go back 20 years, and it felt more like buses in perseveration were a lot older. Is this just the changing of the guards? Has anyone else felt like this over the last 20-30 years?

I think it is just more changing of the guards, i've often heard it mentioned about how 20-30 years ago people complained about Atlanteans and Nationals in preservation and yet now they're probably some of the more sought after vehicles at events particuarly by the general public. I was at an event in 2024 that was mainly attended by and aimed towards the general public and the bus that drew the biggest queue was a 1988 Olympian, something which many would still bemoan is "too modern" and "not of public interest".

The only way to keep the much older vehicles particuarly halfcabs on the road in the future is to get the younger generations involved in all the aspects of preservation as soon as possible and the only way you can go about doing that is by having vehicles they grew up with in preservation.

Its only a matter of time before someone mad enough preserves a Streetlite...

 

[WiltsBus]

I'm surprised there aren't more 'heritage' Optare Solos, purely due to their novelty design

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'm surprised there aren't more 'heritage' Optare Solos, purely due to their novelty design

Probably because there's a level of snobbishness (they're only a minibus) and because there are so many still about that they're not regarded as endangered.

IMO, the Solo is one of the most important bus designs in the last 50 years.

 

[joieman]

Probably because there's a level of snobbishness (they're only a minibus) and because there are so many still about that they're not regarded as endangered.

IMO, the Solo is one of the most important bus designs in the last 50 years.

Well, I know of one guy who owns four of them, so he's doing his bit

 

[WirralLine]

I'm surprised there aren't more 'heritage' Optare Solos, purely due to their novelty design

I think half of the problem is - especially the earlier ones - is that theyre rot boxes with steel body frames and were often beyond economical repair. They're also well known for their electrical faults and a right pain to keep going.

I own an 07 plate VDL SB120/Wright Cadet, I've not had it long, but I don't really have any interest in taking it to running days. Very rare I go to running days at all, but when I do I'm more inclined to ride 80s/90s era buses. I do love a ride on a Bristol RE though!

It seems pointless me taking an 07 plate Cadet which is still in Arrivas current livery especially when another of the batch is still in service in Bangor. Yes it has some enthusiast appeal for the younger lot, but would do absolutely nothing for the majority. I bought it to prevent it being scrapped because I quite liked driving them, and it was a case of if I don't buy one nobody else will! Maybe when i've "restored" it, time will tell.