Bus competition

[Bletchleyite]

You're making the assumption that I have already decided to travel by bus. I'm thinking of trying to persuade new passengers to use the bus, but won't because they have no idea that the bus may actually go to where they want to go because it just displays some random place they've never heard of.

Route branding works better for that - though London has rarely done this, regional operators often do.

 

[Lewisham2221]

You're making the assumption that I have already decided to travel by bus. I'm thinking of trying to persuade new passengers to use the bus, but won't because they have no idea that the bus may actually go to where they want to go because it just displays some random place they've never heard of.

So person in SomewhereVille just happens to see a bus displaying Random Hampton via A-Town, B-Town & C-Town (assuming that's all managed to display on the blind in the space of time that the person has been looking at it) and then says "oh, I'm going to B-Town, there's a bus"?

What if they were going LittlePlace, in between B-Town and C-Town, but not being local, have no idea that LittlePlace is actually located as such?

Somebody who is going to even entertain the idea of travelling bus is far more likely to actually look if there is a bus from A to B, rather than being influenced by a chance observation of a bus destination blind. Much more likely to happen that somebody sees the bus displaying a via point that the bus has already passed and boards the bus travelling in the wrong direction, thus causing confusion, frustration and putting them off bus travel, than you are to attract any meaningful new custom from displaying a list of via points.

 

[SCH117X]

I think Connexions run all their trips commercially. They don’t hold any contracts for NY according to the contracts register published. https://hub.datanorthyorkshire.org/...e56d/download/ipt-transparency-q4-2023-24.pdf

Must have taken it on commercially then - the Follifoot rougte certainly was tendered with the initail award to Connexions then to Transdev who ran it as an additional service and then back to Connexions. Possibly explains the appalling Saturday service today via Follifoot of one working in each direction.

 

[Mollman]

I remember a friend catching one, and the driver didn't seem to understand what my friend was saying as to a destination.

I recall a BBC documentary on it where UK North said they were sending all their overseas drivers to college to learn English, it appeared that wasn't actually happening when a driver was interviewed.

I do remember Peter Shipp (Finglands) stating that the long term impact of UK North was that fares had been cut so much to be competitive that to get them back to a commercially viable level would have resulted in a significant increase that would have bad PR and be counter productive patronage wise.

 

[Whisky Papa]

I recall a BBC documentary on it where UK North said they were sending all their overseas drivers to college to learn English, it appeared that wasn't actually happening when a driver was interviewed.

I do remember Peter Shipp (Finglands) stating that the long term impact of UK North was that fares had been cut so much to be competitive that to get them back to a commercially viable level would have resulted in a significant increase that would have bad PR and be counter productive patronage wise.

I drove for UK North from November 2003 to May 2005 - please do not consider this an endorsement of them, or even bus competition in general, it was simply the only job on offer that gave me regular day work and a four day week, even at the expense of a 25 mile drive from home.

This was before the influx of foreign drivers, which I think was largely to fuel the expansion of the sister operation on the 192, so I can't comment on that. I would agree that the fares being charged were hopelessly uneconomic, with a £2 weekly ticket being sold from the summer of 2004 until I left. If I recall rightly, the fares (and service level) usually dropped over the summer on all the operators, but in that year there was a stand-off with the other operators as to who would increase it back to its term-time level first - and nobody did! I actually think Finglands were at the root of this situation, having publicised their intention to retain the reduced fare at some point as the new term approached.

 

[MotCO]

So person in SomewhereVille just happens to see a bus displaying Random Hampton via A-Town, B-Town & C-Town (assuming that's all managed to display on the blind in the space of time that the person has been looking at it) and then says "oh, I'm going to B-Town, there's a bus"?

What if they were going LittlePlace, in between B-Town and C-Town, but not being local, have no idea that LittlePlace is actually located as such?

Somebody who is going to even entertain the idea of travelling bus is far more likely to actually look if there is a bus from A to B, rather than being influenced by a chance observation of a bus destination blind. Much more likely to happen that somebody sees the bus displaying a via point that the bus has already passed and boards the bus travelling in the wrong direction, thus causing confusion, frustration and putting them off bus travel, than you are to attract any meaningful new custom from displaying a list of via points.

I'm not saying that everyone is going to be looking at the buses, and that as a consequence everyone is going to go by bus and fill it up. But, if only one would-be passenger realises that the bus is going to where he/she wants to go, isn't that a result? Not showing via points will deny the opportunity of an extra passenger. They may not have considered going by bus before, so wouldn't consult timetables etc.

Don't forget, there is no such thing as bad publicity, so by advertising where the bus is going can only be good news.

 

[Travelmonkey]

welcome - xprss38 - run by trentbarton

trentbarton are proud to be the really good bus company, serving Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire & Leicestershire in the East Midlands.

www.trentbarton.co.uk

Tent have released their timetable every 15 mins with some "green" buses helping out, would those be ex swift or H1,

 

[Trainman40083]

welcome - xprss38 - run by trentbarton

trentbarton are proud to be the really good bus company, serving Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire & Leicestershire in the East Midlands.

www.trentbarton.co.uk

Tent have released their timetable every 15 mins with some "green" buses helping out, would those be ex swift or H1,

732 to 734 from H1.

 

[Travelmonkey]

We are a few weeks into the battle now, it seems from base observation Trentbarton have the better loads although on Victoria Street and the hospital its whoever comes first gets the passengers. I did end up taking a arriva one last Saturday evening and I definitely prefer Trentbartons vehicles.

 

[Robertj21a]

We are a few weeks into the battle now, it seems from base observation Trentbarton have the better loads although on Victoria Street and the hospital its whoever comes first gets the passengers. I did end up taking a arriva one last Saturday evening and I definitely prefer Trentbartons vehicles.

If Trentbarton can do it properly now why didn't they bother running the joint service as they were supposed to do before?
.
It's all very well now throwing 4-5 more buses and drivers on to the X38 (both borrowed from other parts of the group) but they were the ones to cause problems in the first place.
.

 

[Statto]

I remember UK North, they increased service levels September 2006 which ended up causing traffic chaos in Central Manchester, i remember Metrolink Trams getting stuck & delayed because of it, they ended up getting shut down after several accidents, one of them being fatal, the directors were later jailed over unsafe work practices & fraud.

Wilmslow Road corridor in Manchester was ridiculous scene which often saw 5 buses a minute operating up & down that Road, the issue University of Manchester & Owens Park which is the Halls Of Residence is on the same road, so operators were chasing students for passengers, TGFM put a notice up that no buses can start & terminate there, so bus companies operated further up & down the Wilmslow Road than they wanted to, so you had that situation, the Wilmslow Road corridor has calmed down a lot since them days, but still sees buses on high frequencies.

As for the X38, isn't because Arriva got fed up with TrentBarton (TB) often cancelling journeys citing vehicle/staff shortages, so Arriva increased the service to 20 minutes, TB responded by introducing a 15 minute service, & strangely TB can now seemingly operate a full service without cancelling journeys?

 

[43055]

I remember UK North, they increased service levels September 2006 which ended up causing traffic chaos in Central Manchester, i remember Metrolink Trams getting stuck & delayed because of it, they ended up getting shut down after several accidents, one of them being fatal, the directors were later jailed over unsafe work practices & fraud.

Wilmslow Road corridor in Manchester was ridiculous scene which often saw 5 buses a minute operating up & down that Road, the issue University of Manchester & Owens Park which is the Halls Of Residence is on the same road, so operators were chasing students for passengers, TGFM put a notice up that no buses can start & terminate there, so bus companies operated further up & down the Wilmslow Road than they wanted to, so you had that situation, the Wilmslow Road corridor has calmed down a lot since them days, but still sees buses on high frequencies.

As for the X38, isn't because Arriva got fed up with TrentBarton (TB) often cancelling journeys citing vehicle/staff shortages, so Arriva increased the service to 20 minutes, TB responded by introducing a 15 minute service, & strangely TB can now seemingly operate a full service without cancelling journeys?

Trent have drafted in drivers from other depots. I had a Kinchbus driver last week in the X38.

 

[markymark2000]

Surely this could all get quite upsetting for Arriva. They started a bus war and there are quite a few observations that they are losing that. Either they will end up back in partnership or probably pulling off unless someone has allocated a big chunk of money towards ridding Trent off the route.

 

[Travelmonkey]

Given that Arriva sold up to Midland Classic & curtailed the 29/29A in covid why the sudden interest in the town now

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Sep 2024 ==

As for the X38, isn't because Arriva got fed up with TrentBarton (TB) often cancelling journeys citing vehicle/staff shortages, so Arriva increased the service to 20 minutes, TB responded by introducing a 15 minute service, & strangely TB can now seemingly operate a full service without cancelling journeys?

Partly another part was because Leicester refused Derby's request for more deckers, and the route much like the no standee rule has a no decker rule, although that was sometimes breeched with a spare Nottingham uni bus,

 

[Andyh82]

I remember UK North, they increased service levels September 2006 which ended up causing traffic chaos in Central Manchester, i remember Metrolink Trams getting stuck & delayed because of it, they ended up getting shut down after several accidents, one of them being fatal, the directors were later jailed over unsafe work practices & fraud.

Wilmslow Road corridor in Manchester was ridiculous scene which often saw 5 buses a minute operating up & down that Road, the issue University of Manchester & Owens Park which is the Halls Of Residence is on the same road, so operators were chasing students for passengers, TGFM put a notice up that no buses can start & terminate there, so bus companies operated further up & down the Wilmslow Road than they wanted to, so you had that situation, the Wilmslow Road corridor has calmed down a lot since them days, but still sees buses on high frequencies.

I remember the printed timetables for this corridor that GMPTE produced in this era

They’d be something like

0601, 0607, buses then run every 1-10 minutes operated by Stagecoach, Magic Bus (Stagecoach), Finglands or UK North until, 0053, 0102

Most pointless timetable ever

 

[joieman]

Given that Arriva sold up to Midland Classic & curtailed the 29/29A in covid, why the sudden interest in the town now?

Exactly. Arriva don't have any other bus routes in Burton anymore. Trentbarton still has two others.

 

[Trainman40083]

Surely this could all get quite upsetting for Arriva. They started a bus war and there are quite a few observations that they are losing that. Either they will end up back in partnership or probably pulling off unless someone has allocated a big chunk of money towards ridding Trent off the route.

I understand major operators across the country are looking to expand against others. I am aware of Arriva running Luton to Milton Keynes, against Stagecoach. I suspect the Arriva agenda has changed, and where they see opportunity, they will look to make gains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I understand major operators across the country are looking to expand against others. I am aware of Arriva running Luton to Milton Keynes, against Stagecoach. I suspect the Arriva agenda has changed, and where they see opportunity, they will look to make gains.

They're also running a coach instead of a bus (albeit quite old and slightly tatty coaches) - competing on comfort rather than speed/price - and also on their A5 rather than M1 route which is less susceptible to getting congested. It's nice to see competition that isn't "race to the bottom" for once by providing a genuinely better product.

 

[Robertj21a]

Surely this could all get quite upsetting for Arriva. They started a bus war and there are quite a few observations that they are losing that. Either they will end up back in partnership or probably pulling off unless someone has allocated a big chunk of money towards ridding Trent off the route.

Not really fair to say that Arriva started a bus war!
They merely decided to run all 4 buses on the X38 when Trentbarton failed to fulfil their part of the joint service. Most people might say that was a very good way forward when Trentbarton were cancelling many bus services (not only the X38).
Now they have to find/borrow many more buses and drivers.
Crazy.
.

 

[markymark2000]

I understand major operators across the country are looking to expand against others. I am aware of Arriva running Luton to Milton Keynes, against Stagecoach. I suspect the Arriva agenda has changed, and where they see opportunity, they will look to make gains.

Same management team at Arriva doing the X1 and X38 competition. X1 isn't as much competition against Stagecoach though on the basis that the route is completely different and provides very different options for passengers. Both X1 and MK1 still have their own USP.

 

[philthetube]

"Bus wars" are good for nobody, because all the cowboys that initiate them do is price-dump, meaning the main operator has to cut costs and thus reliability.

Has there ever been competition between operators* on quality in the bus industry? National Express are doing that for coaches, not claiming to be cheaper than Flixbus/Megabus but better, and I think it's fair to say they are. But on local buses?

* I know some operators like Trent and Transdev have used quality to compete with the car and/or train, but not with other operators.

Buses can compete on quality for season ticket holders but not for cash passengers, if you are stood at a bus stop the best bus is the one which is there with no heaters, not the one somewhere behind which will leave you standing in the cold until it arrives, even if you know that it will be warm.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Buses can compete on quality for season ticket holders but not for cash passengers, if you are stood at a bus stop the best bus is the one which is there with no heaters, not the one somewhere behind which will leave you standing in the cold until it arrives, even if you know that it will be warm.

That's only true on frequent services. Here, there are two separate hourly services. You're not going to just show up and risk having to stand there for up to 59 minutes, you're going to refer to a timetable or journey planner and plan which to use before setting out.

 

[joieman]

They're also running a coach instead of a bus (albeit quite old and slightly tatty coaches) - competing on comfort rather than speed/price - and also on their A5 rather than M1 route which is less susceptible to getting congested. It's nice to see competition that isn't "race to the bottom" for once by providing a genuinely better product.

69-plates?! Old?! Really?!

 

[citybus2500]

Same management team at Arriva doing the X1 and X38 competition. X1 isn't as much competition against Stagecoach though on the basis that the route is completely different and provides very different options for passengers. Both X1 and MK1 still have their own USP.

I travelled on an Arriva X1 recently at it carried over 40 passengers. Over half of those passengers boarded and alighted at stops common with the MK1, so it is very much providing competition. Indeed, I would have travelled on the MK1 had the X1 not been there.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Sep 2024 ==

Exactly. Arriva don't have any other bus routes in Burton anymore. Trentbarton still has two others.

No idea why people have this fasination that because they only have one bus route somewhere they don't count . . . .

 

[Travelmonkey]

No idea why people have this fasination that because they only have one bus route somewhere they don't count . . . .

More contingency planning, look back to when Whippet had routes in Corby & Kettering, their reliability was shocking, the further you get from a base the more noticeable it is during disruption and breakdown. Although the same argument against arriva could be levied at the routes buslink are running in stage-carrige format. Time will tell who will be Victor on the X38 & X65/X66,

 

[miklcct]

That's only true on frequent services. Here, there are two separate hourly services. You're not going to just show up and risk having to stand there for up to 59 minutes, you're going to refer to a timetable or journey planner and plan which to use before setting out.

If there are two such routes, a season ticket needs to be valid on both or useless, as it is again a matter of which bus comes first.

 

[Travelmonkey]

Bus company confirms changes to services between Lichfield and Tamworth - Lichfield Live®

A bus company says changes to a service between Lichfield and Tamworth will make it "more regular and reliable".

lichfieldlive.co.uk

In the Tamworth>Litchfied battle Arriva are changing the X65 to be more express,

Arriva has confirmed that the X65 will run every 30 minutes during the day from Monday to Saturday from 26th October.

However, the route will no longer serve Boley Park and will instead operate directly along Tamworth Road and Upper St John Street.

Although the Boley Park being picked up by the 765 comes at a cost to Whittington.

Arriva Bus

www.arrivabus.co.uk

There will be a slight reduction in the number of journeys serving Whittington. On Mondays to Fridays, and Saturdays there will be around 2 or 3 journeys less in each direction, with buses running approximately every 1 hour 20 minutes.