Bus competition

[johncrossley]

I don't see how you can say deregulation and competition are working for the benefit of passengers here.

Obviously not there. In the last 38 years, what percentage of times has competition worked for the passengers' benefit? In the majority of cases, competition is short lived, and then things get back to normal. But in the meantime huge resources have been wasted by both parties, money that could have been used improving services in a more sustainable manner. Obviously the trend in the big cities now is tendering for all routes. There is still competition but not on the road.

 

[Travelmonkey]

The big issue with that competition is it favours bigger operators. Although how much to blame the operator vs the PTE is up for debate. I know Sulivans down in London caused a stir due to dropping their TFL work all of a sudden.

 

[johncrossley]

The big issue with that competition is it favours bigger operators. Although how much to blame the operator vs the PTE is up for debate. I know Sulivans down in London caused a stir due to dropping their TFL work all of a sudden.

Is that important? What matters surely is whether the service offered is good and whether the taxpayer is getting good value.

 

[Travelmonkey]

Trentbarton and Arriva in 'muscling out' dispute over key bus route

Two bus firms in dispute after one claims the other is trying to 'muscle them out' of jointly shared route

www.derbytelegraph.co.uk

Seems to be a title for tat argument gong on at least that's how the local paper is reporting on it. Wonder what one is more true,

"Tom Morgan, managing director of Trentbarton, said: “The unilateral and surprise decision by Arriva to run X38 buses at the exact times of our buses marks the disappointing end of what has been a friendly partnership which since 1995 has worked well for the public on this key connection between Burton and Derby.

"To anyone thinking ‘why don’t Arriva and Trentbarton just sit down together and sort this out’, we have tried to. Derby City Council, at our request, tried to organise a meeting but Arriva would not engage.”

"Arriva also released a statement regarding the claim that it hadn't responded to Trentbarton. A spokesperson said: “Arriva approached TrentBarton via Derby City Council to discuss the evolution of the route in April 2024, but TrentBarton chose not to engage in the discussion at that time and we have had no representation from them since.”

 

[TUC]

I think calling people thick (or the other options) for that is below the belt, to be honest - what it tells me is that buses are too complex to use in the UK.

And there are plenty of places where buses do finish around 6pm.

In what way are they complex? You know where you want to go. You look up (either by timetable displays at the bus stop or online) which buses go there.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2024 ==

Obviously not there. In the last 38 years, what percentage of times has competition worked for the passengers' benefit? In the majority of cases, competition is short lived, and then things get back to normal. But in the meantime huge resources have been wasted by both parties, money that could have been used improving services in a more sustainable manner. Obviously the trend in the big cities now is tendering for all routes. There is still competition but not on the road.

Where it causes fares to fall (more complex with the £2 fare I recognise) that is to the passengers' benefit.

Put it the other way round. When there is one dominant operator, making a reasonable amount of income, what incentive do they have to grow their market? It's those circumstances where one tends to end up with 'plodder' operators, just doing what they've done for the past 10 years, and often with a slow decline in services.

 

[johncrossley]

Where it causes fares to fall (more complex with the £2 fare I recognise) that is to the passengers' benefit.

Put it the other way round. When there is one dominant operator, making a reasonable amount of income, what incentive do they have to grow their market? It's those circumstances where one tends to end up with 'plodder' operators, just doing what they've done for the past 10 years, and often with a slow decline in services.

You could argue there is always a potential threat of competition, keeping fares as low as possible by default, but when the incumbent is one of the major groups they can normally repel competition easily so not many are prepared to waste money trying to compete. So we have basically ended up with large monopoly operators who don't fear competition.

Lower fares from competition are only good when you don't have to change buses. If competition ends up with the town having some routes run by one company and others by another company then you have to get two tickets or a joint ticket which will be more expensive than when the town had a monopoly operator.

 

[RT4038]

Lower fares from competition are only good when you don't have to change buses. If competition ends up with the town having some routes run by one company and others by another company then you have to get two tickets or a joint ticket which will be more expensive than when the town had a monopoly operator.

This issue occurs in many towns, irrespective of any competition issues, where there are traditional boundaries of bus operators on commercial services, or where tendered services have been awarded to an operator other than the incumbent area operator.

 

[Trainman40083]

Trentbarton and Arriva in 'muscling out' dispute over key bus route

Two bus firms in dispute after one claims the other is trying to 'muscle them out' of jointly shared route

www.derbytelegraph.co.uk

Seems to be a title for tat argument gong on at least that's how the local paper is reporting on it. Wonder what one is more true,


"Tom Morgan, managing director of Trentbarton, said: “The unilateral and surprise decision by Arriva to run X38 buses at the exact times of our buses marks the disappointing end of what has been a friendly partnership which since 1995 has worked well for the public on this key connection between Burton and Derby.

"To anyone thinking ‘why don’t Arriva and Trentbarton just sit down together and sort this out’, we have tried to. Derby City Council, at our request, tried to organise a meeting but Arriva would not engage.”








"Arriva also released a statement regarding the claim that it hadn't responded to Trentbarton. A spokesperson said: “Arriva approached TrentBarton via Derby City Council to discuss the evolution of the route in April 2024, but TrentBarton chose not to engage in the discussion at that time and we have had no representation from them since.”

But this "competition" on the X38 is far more than two bus companies running the same route... Will Arriva running from the bus station be a wild card, in terms of connectivity and facilities? I understand Arriva wanted to put double deckers on the route (and indeed did at weekends) but the request was declined.. It is highlighted that Arriva left people behind, and that hurt; but they won't carry standees. So, one operator wants to do something different to win new business..Every business needs new business as costs grow, even more so when the service is price sensitive. My view is this will not be the only competition. Imagine a combined bus and rail ticket to Nottingham or Burton on Cross Country. Whatever people may say, the reputation /reliability of Trentbarton has gone down of late, so much so, people laugh at "the really good bus company".

 

[johncrossley]

This issue occurs in many towns, irrespective of any competition issues, where there are traditional boundaries of bus operators on commercial services, or where tendered services have been awarded to an operator other than the incumbent area operator.

Of course, this is a general problem nationwide. But a "peace settlement" where a town's routes are split between competing operators will exacerbate the issue.

 

[robertclark125]

One interesting bus war ended twenty years ago, next month. In greenock, harte buses were the only other operator in the area, apart from mcgills. They had a route to Midton. In 2002, mcgills launched a rival service, yet most people stayed loyal to Harte. They launched a braehead express in 2003. In 2004, harte gave up its Midton route, after 18 years, leaving it to mcgills, despite retaining about 65-70% of his customers.

 

[Hophead]

or where tendered services have been awarded to an operator other than the incumbent area operator.

That's simply a failure of the tendering authority to consider passenger needs. It doesn't have to happen, and doesn't in Brighton where Big Lemon and Compass are required to issue & accept City Savers & Network Savers valid on Brighton & Hove / Metrobus.

 

[Dai Corner]

That's simply a failure of the tendering authority to consider passenger needs. It doesn't have to happen, and doesn't in Brighton where Big Lemon and Compass are required to issue & accept City Savers & Network Savers valid on Brighton & Hove / Metrobus.

Or the tendering authority may have decided not to meet the cost of such an arrangement?

 

[Lewisham2221]

That's simply a failure of the tendering authority to consider passenger needs. It doesn't have to happen, and doesn't in Brighton where Big Lemon and Compass are required to issue & accept City Savers & Network Savers valid on Brighton & Hove / Metrobus.

I've known LAs require the operator of a tendered service to accept the "primary" operator's tickets, although this was for evening and weekend services where the "primary" operater operated the service (or comparable service) for the rest of the week. I'm not sure if there has ever been a requirement (or if it's legal?) to require them to accept such tickets for stand alone services. It is, of course, possible to require them to be part of - and accept - multi-operator ticket schemes, although they often come with a price premium, as already mentioned.

 

[RT4038]

That's simply a failure of the tendering authority to consider passenger needs. It doesn't have to happen, and doesn't in Brighton where Big Lemon and Compass are required to issue & accept City Savers & Network Savers valid on Brighton & Hove / Metrobus.

It is not that simple though. The tendering authority can require the tickets of the commercial operator to be accepted on the tendered service, but not the other way round. There is always the question of such arrangements being seen as a hidden subsidy to the commercial operator - which may be accepted for minor operations such as evening and Sundays but would you do that for more substantial operations?

 

[SCH117X]

The bus war between Transdev and Connexions on the Harrogate-Wetherby route simply resulted in a cost to the council. Pre bus war Transdev was commercially operating a half hourly service via Follifoot. Post bus war the Council have had to fund a hourly service via Follifoot with commercial services avoiding the village.

 

[Numpt33]

The bus war between Transdev and Connexions on the Harrogate-Wetherby route simply resulted in a cost to the council. Pre bus war Transdev was commercially operating a half hourly service via Follifoot. Post bus war the Council have had to fund a hourly service via Follifoot with commercial services avoiding the village.

I've looked it up and it is somewhere that was originaly "on the way" and is now "out of the way". Too few people getting on to justify turning off that bypass it seems...

 

[SCH117X]

I've looked it up and it is somewhere that was originaly "on the way" and is now "out of the way". Too few people getting on to justify turning off that bypass it seems...

The "bypass" as actualy the main road between Harrogate and Wetherby. Connexions sparked the war by providing a direct service (Mon-Sat daytimes only like all there services) timed 5 minutes in front of Transdev Follifoot routed service. Transdev responded with an additional bus running direct 5 mins in front of Connexions - the war was resolved with a generally 15 minute interval between the two operators and the Council funding one a hour service via Follifoot (although when Transdev had the contract they operated that as an additional service. #
Following Covid Transdev have reduced their service to hourly oustide peaks and Connexions have done the same on Saturdays leading to an awkward 15-45 interval.

 

[Travelmonkey]

But this "competition" on the X38 is far more than two bus companies running the same route... Will Arriva running from the bus station be a wild card, in terms of connectivity and facilities? I understand Arriva wanted to put double deckers on the route (and indeed did at weekends) but the request was declined.. It is highlighted that Arriva left people behind, and that hurt; but they won't carry standees. So, one operator wants to do something different to win new business..Every business needs new business as costs grow, even more so when the service is price sensitive. My view is this will not be the only competition. Imagine a combined bus and rail ticket to Nottingham or Burton on Cross Country. Whatever people may say, the reputation /reliability of Trentbarton has gone down of late, so much so, people laugh at "the really good bus company".

Not out of the relmes of possibility I know First have cross ticketing between GWR & bus businesses be good for the consumer if Arriva could do the same with XC, as for deckers on the X38 the Nottingham uni ones get on it over the weekends so hopefully as areas get new buses (e.g Leicester with their electrics) Derby can pinch some more MMCs for not only the X38 but the normal 38's and the 1 series of routes.

When I gave the suggestion of putting deckers on the X38 the response I got was the Derby City routes already need them more,

 

[joieman]

Not out of the relmes of possibility I know First have cross ticketing between GWR & bus businesses be good for the consumer if Arriva could do the same with XC, as for deckers on the X38 the Nottingham uni ones get on it over the weekends so hopefully as areas get new buses (e.g Leicester with their electrics) Derby can pinch some more MMCs for not only the X38 but the normal 38's and the 1 series of routes.

When I gave the suggestion of putting deckers on the X38 the response I got was the Derby City routes already need them more,

Apparently higher-ups refused Derby's request for extra deckers, which has indirectly resulted in the looming X38 bus war.

 

[Travelmonkey]

Apparently higher-ups refused Derby's request for extra deckers, which has indirectly resulted in the looming X38 bus war.

Go figure , not just the X38 that needs deckers, maybe the recent Streetlite order (can't quite remember when they arrived a little while ago but still fairly new) was a shortsighted one.

 

[TheSmiths82]

The worst one I can remember was UK North v Stagecoach. Wilmslow Road in Manchester had been a corridor with huge amount competition ever since regulation in 1986. I am too young to remember much about it though. What I do remember is when UK North expanded in around 2004, they started operating in my local area which pre trams was great. It meant competition, Stagecoach instantly reduced the prices on that route, and flooded the route with buses. I thought Stagecoach behaved very badly during the entire thing.

I think at one point there was a bus every 1 minute, nearly all of them empty. I actually started trying to support UK North during this era. However I soon realised the buses were death traps, the drivers only seem to go across busy road junctions when the lights were on red and the service itself became unreliable. Their buses were far quicker than Stagecoach in the end.

In the end a tragic death lead to company being forced to close by VOSA after they had already been in trouble a lot in the past.

Manchester still had competition on Wilmslow Road after UK North with the reputable Finglands and R Bullocks. Finglands was bought by First and R Bullocks pulled out of the commercial bus market leaving Stagecoach the main operator down that road.

The main problem with bus competition is that operators tended to reduce services on routes with no competition in order to defend the routes where they did. I think there is a reason that Greater Manchester became the first area outside of London to regulate the buses again. It was also a nightmare in terms of tickets, with lots of different tickets sold by each operator. While they did sell all bus tickets they more expensive and a lot of visitors wouldn't know and just by what ever day saver the bus company was selling.

 

[Trainman40083]

Not out of the relmes of possibility I know First have cross ticketing between GWR & bus businesses be good for the consumer if Arriva could do the same with XC, as for deckers on the X38 the Nottingham uni ones get on it over the weekends so hopefully as areas get new buses (e.g Leicester with their electrics) Derby can pinch some more MMCs for not only the X38 but the normal 38's and the 1 series of routes.

When I gave the suggestion of putting deckers on the X38 the response I got was the Derby City routes already need them more,

Then Arriva should get some more then.. I don't think they have enough for current Derby commitments.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2024 ==

The worst one I can remember was UK North v Stagecoach. Wilmslow Road in Manchester had been a corridor with huge amount competition ever since regulation in 1986. I am too young to remember much about it though. What I do remember is when UK North expanded in around 2004, they started operating in my local area which pre trams was great. It meant competition, Stagecoach instantly reduced the prices on that route, and flooded the route with buses. I thought Stagecoach behaved very badly during the entire thing.

I think at one point there was a bus every 1 minute, nearly all of them empty. I actually started trying to support UK North during this era. However I soon realised the buses were death traps, the drivers only seem to go across busy road junctions when the lights were on red and the service itself became unreliable. Their buses were far quicker than Stagecoach in the end.

In the end a tragic death lead to company being forced to close by VOSA after they had already been in trouble a lot in the past.

Manchester still had competition on Wilmslow Road after UK North with the reputable Finglands and R Bullocks. Finglands was bought by First and R Bullocks pulled out of the commercial bus market leaving Stagecoach the main operator down that road.

The main problem with bus competition is that operators tended to reduce services on routes with no competition in order to defend the routes where they did. I think there is a reason that Greater Manchester became the first area outside of London to regulate the buses again. It was also a nightmare in terms of tickets, with lots of different tickets sold by each operator. While they did sell all bus tickets they more expensive and a lot of visitors wouldn't know and just by what ever day saver the bus company was selling.

I went down the A6 between Hazel Grove and Stockport last week. Seven Stagecoach route 192 buses came the other way in less than two minutes...Maybe it stops the half hourly 199 picking up a passenger over that stretch.. But our 199 inbound picked up a few.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2024 ==

The worst one I can remember was UK North v Stagecoach. Wilmslow Road in Manchester had been a corridor with huge amount competition ever since regulation in 1986. I am too young to remember much about it though. What I do remember is when UK North expanded in around 2004, they started operating in my local area which pre trams was great. It meant competition, Stagecoach instantly reduced the prices on that route, and flooded the route with buses. I thought Stagecoach behaved very badly during the entire thing.

I think at one point there was a bus every 1 minute, nearly all of them empty. I actually started trying to support UK North during this era. However I soon realised the buses were death traps, the drivers only seem to go across busy road junctions when the lights were on red and the service itself became unreliable. Their buses were far quicker than Stagecoach in the end.

In the end a tragic death lead to company being forced to close by VOSA after they had already been in trouble a lot in the past.

Manchester still had competition on Wilmslow Road after UK North with the reputable Finglands and R Bullocks. Finglands was bought by First and R Bullocks pulled out of the commercial bus market leaving Stagecoach the main operator down that road.

The main problem with bus competition is that operators tended to reduce services on routes with no competition in order to defend the routes where they did. I think there is a reason that Greater Manchester became the first area outside of London to regulate the buses again. It was also a nightmare in terms of tickets, with lots of different tickets sold by each operator. While they did sell all bus tickets they more expensive and a lot of visitors wouldn't know and just by what ever day saver the bus company was selling.

Wasn't UK North related to My bus aka Denton Discount Warehouse?

 

[TheSmiths82]

Then Arriva should get some more then.. I don't think they have enough for current Derby commitments.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2024 ==


I went down the A6 between Hazel Grove and Stockport last week. Seven Stagecoach route 192 buses came the other way in less than two minutes...Maybe it stops the half hourly 199 picking up a passenger over that stretch.. But our 199 inbound picked up a few.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2024 ==


Wasn't UK North related to My bus aka Denton Discount Warehouse?

I think that was the company, I think they went bust and formed a new company which became UK North. The depot was in Gorton.

A couple of stories about UK North

Rogue fuel buses forced off road

A BUS company's Manchester fleet was forced off the road by customs officers who discovered the vehicles were being run on "dodgy" central heating oil.

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

Bus fleet banned from city's roads

ONE of Manchester's biggest bus companies has been suspended from operating on any of its routes by the traffic watchdog.

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

UK North directors sent to jail as Bell bans them for life

Two directors of Manchester bus operator UK North have been jailed after being found guilty at Manchester Crown Court of conspiring to create false documents. N

www.transportxtra.com

I think UK North were a bit on the extreme side though. It all became a bit of a game between them and Stagecoach.

 

[Trainman40083]

I think that was the company, I think they went bust and formed a new company which became UK North. The depot was in Gorton.

A couple of stories about UK North

Rogue fuel buses forced off road

A BUS company's Manchester fleet was forced off the road by customs officers who discovered the vehicles were being run on "dodgy" central heating oil.

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

Bus fleet banned from city's roads

ONE of Manchester's biggest bus companies has been suspended from operating on any of its routes by the traffic watchdog.

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

UK North directors sent to jail as Bell bans them for life

Two directors of Manchester bus operator UK North have been jailed after being found guilty at Manchester Crown Court of conspiring to create false documents. N

www.transportxtra.com

I think UK North were a bit on the extreme side though. It all became a bit of a game between them and Stagecoach.

I remember a friend catching one, and the driver didn't seem to understand what my friend was saying as to a destination.

 

[Leedsbusman]

The bus war between Transdev and Connexions on the Harrogate-Wetherby route simply resulted in a cost to the council. Pre bus war Transdev was commercially operating a half hourly service via Follifoot. Post bus war the Council have had to fund a hourly service via Follifoot with commercial services avoiding the village.

I think Connexions run all their trips commercially. They don’t hold any contracts for NY according to the contracts register published. https://hub.datanorthyorkshire.org/...e56d/download/ipt-transparency-q4-2023-24.pdf

 

[MotCO]

In what way are they complex? You know where you want to go. You look up (either by timetable displays at the bus stop or online) which buses go there.

I think one problem is that buses now only give the destination and not the via points. Sometimes the destination is confusing - who outside Orpington knows here the Ramsden Estates is (route 353) or outside Richmond knows where Manor Circus is (route R70)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think one problem is that buses now only give the destination and not the via points. Sometimes the destination is confusing - who outside Orpington knows here the Ramsden Estates is (route 353) or outside Richmond knows where Manor Circus is (route R70)?

That's less important now you can't flag one down anywhere. Now you can see it on the stop poster.

 

[MotCO]

That's less important now you can't flag one down anywhere. Now you can see it on the stop poster.

But why would I look at bus stops, if the mobile advertisements aka buses go to some place I have never heard of? Why would I think it goes anywhere near where I want to go.

 

[Lewisham2221]

But why would I look at bus stops, if the mobile advertisements aka buses go to some place I have never heard of? Why would I think it goes anywhere near where I want to go.

Because people also get confused by the via points displayed on buses. It's virtually impossible for a bus to display every locality, that it passes through, in a meaningful way.

Who just turns up at a bus stop in an unfamiliar place, having done absolutely no prior research, expecting a bus to show up - displaying the exact locality they wish to travel to? What if there is no bus at all from that stop to their destination? What if there's a 3 hour wait for the next bus to that location? Or the service has finished for the day and there isn't a bus until morning? Or after the weekend?

 

[MotCO]

Because people also get confused by the via points displayed on buses. It's virtually impossible for a bus to display every locality, that it passes through, in a meaningful way.

Who just turns up at a bus stop in an unfamiliar place, having done absolutely no prior research, expecting a bus to show up - displaying the exact locality they wish to travel to? What if there is no bus at all from that stop to their destination? What if there's a 3 hour wait for the next bus to that location? Or the service has finished for the day and there isn't a bus until morning? Or after the weekend?

You're making the assumption that I have already decided to travel by bus. I'm thinking of trying to persuade new passengers to use the bus, but won't because they have no idea that the bus may actually go to where they want to go because it just displays some random place they've never heard of.