Bus competition

[Travelmonkey]

I have noticed that near me there is competition brewing again on bus routes, namely Arriva being both a target and an agitator.

The routes in question are:

• X38 Derby-Burton on Trent - Arriva have totally recast their timetable and now route it out of Derby Bus station. Trent Barton still continues to use the same routing and times although that could change,
• 
  
• X65 vs X66 Tamworth-Lichfield
• 
  
• The incumbent Arriva has the X65 & 765 on this corridor; it has also launched a new ticket and kids go free deal
• 
  
• The X66 is run by a new company called BusLink; I've been told by a driver this is a commercial route and it aims to take some Arriva market share.

My question for the forum is what do you reckon to competition like this and do you have any interesting examples from your area?

 

[liamf656]

I think "bus wars" are needed post-demic as there are many operators who seem to be getting too confident, knowing that they are the only operator on some markets, knowing they can get away with poor reliability

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think "bus wars" are needed post-demic as there are many operators who seem to be getting too confident, knowing that they are the only operator on some markets, knowing they can get away with poor reliability

"Bus wars" are good for nobody, because all the cowboys that initiate them do is price-dump, meaning the main operator has to cut costs and thus reliability.

Has there ever been competition between operators* on quality in the bus industry? National Express are doing that for coaches, not claiming to be cheaper than Flixbus/Megabus but better, and I think it's fair to say they are. But on local buses?

* I know some operators like Trent and Transdev have used quality to compete with the car and/or train, but not with other operators.

 

[Whisky Papa]

"Bus wars" are good for nobody, because all the cowboys that initiate them do is price-dump, meaning the main operator has to cut costs and thus reliability.

Agreed, and as a former UK North driver for a while, I should know!

Has there ever been competition between operators* on quality in the bus industry? National Express are doing that for coaches, not claiming to be cheaper than Flixbus/Megabus but better, and I think it's fair to say they are. But on local buses?

* I know some operators like Trent and Transdev have used quality to compete with the car and/or train, but not with other operators.

On vehicle quality, maybe not. On service quality, perhaps the original incarnation of The Bee Line Buzz Company might qualify? Much more frequent than existing services, new links created in many places, earlier service starts and later finishes.

 

[Trainman40083]

I have noticed that near me there is competition brewing again on bus routes, namely Arriva being both a target and an agitator.

The routes in question are:

• X38 Derby-Burton on Trent - Arriva have totally recast their timetable and now route it out of Derby Bus station. Trent Barton still continues to use the same routing and times although that could change,
• 
  
• X65 vs X66 Tamworth-Lichfield
• 
  
• The incumbent Arriva has the X65 & 765 on this corridor; it has also launched a new ticket and kids go free deal
• 
  
• The X66 is run by a new company called BusLink; I've been told by a driver this is a commercial route and it aims to take some Arriva market share.

My question for the forum is what do you reckon to competition like this and do you have any interesting examples from your area?

For clarification, Arriva Derby change the X38 around the end of August. I did wonder if the change, and particularly running to the bus station, is as a result of their passenger feedback. For example, someone who lives in Arriva territory, might value where they can get on an Arriva day ticket. Say Oakwood to Royal Hospital. (That said, I don't know what the view of operators is for passengers between the City Centre and the Royal Hospital).

 

[liamf656]

"Bus wars" are good for nobody, because all the cowboys that initiate them do is price-dump, meaning the main operator has to cut costs and thus reliability.

Depending on the context, I agree. When Premiere took on Wellglade in 2011 it did feel like a race to the bottom and it ended up in Premiere going bust.

Yourbus however, despite it also going under in 2019, kept Trent on their toes with the Derby to Ilkeston/Heanor corridors as they had brand new higher quality Mercedes buses and they made sure customers knew that when they marketed them. Without that the H1 service wouldn't have had brand new buses in 2013 and the Flyer wouldn't have been extended to Cotmanhay at a higher frequency. There may be other examples but that's a local one to me that I can think of

Yourbus also took on Doyles in 2013 and succeeded having competed on one of their only commercial routes, then, when Doyles had gone over, picked up the contracted services. Of course, it was awful for Doyles and I don't see much good from it but I understand that Yourbus saw an opportunity and it paid off

Until now Trent/Arriva have run in partnership with each other on X38, running two buses in turn every 20 minutes (for example, from Derby, Trent departures are 09:40, 10:00, then Arriva are 10:20, 10:40, and so on). In 2022-23 Trent's reliability has been sloppy to say the least, and on one or two occasions have cancelled two round trips in a row leaving Arriva to pick up the pieces

Has there ever been competition between operators* on quality in the bus industry? National Express are doing that for coaches, not claiming to be cheaper than Flixbus/Megabus but better, and I think it's fair to say they are. But on local buses?

With the £2 government cap on fares neither Trent or Arriva will be cheaper than one another, however it does feel like Arriva are wishing to compete on reliability. They must have seen Trent's reliability as a window to make more money, as I can't imagine any other reason why they've gone against the agreement. In my opinion it should encourage Trent to either step up their game or admit they can't and withdraw from the service

 

[bringiton]

With the £2 government cap on fares neither Trent or Arriva will be cheaper than one another, however it does feel like Arriva are wishing to compete on reliability. They must have seen Trent's reliability as a window to make more money, as I can't imagine any other reason why they've gone against the agreement. In my opinion it should encourage Trent to either step up their game or admit they can't and withdraw from the service

They might not be able to compete with single fares, however they can compete with daily/weekly/monthly tickets. With trentbarton having mango and zigzag which can be used on all their services including x38. Arriva having a separate ticket zone currently for x38 to the rest of their derby operation so if you have an arriva derby monthly ticket your unable to get on x38 without having a different ticket.

 

[Trainman40083]

They might not be able to compete with single fares, however they can compete with daily/weekly/monthly tickets. With trentbarton having mango and zigzag which can be used on all their services including x38. Arriva having a separate ticket zone currently for x38 to the rest of their derby operation so if you have an arriva derby monthly ticket your unable to get on x38 without having a different ticket.

But you can buy a daily ticket on Arriva that covers say your bus into Derby , then onto the Arriva X38. So, it might follow that weekly/monthly options will arriva. (See what I did there )

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2024 ==

Depending on the context, I agree. When Premiere took on Wellglade in 2011 it did feel like a race to the bottom and it ended up in Premiere going bust.

Yourbus however, despite it also going under in 2019, kept Trent on their toes with the Derby to Ilkeston/Heanor corridors as they had brand new higher quality Mercedes buses and they made sure customers knew that when they marketed them. Without that the H1 service wouldn't have had brand new buses in 2013 and the Flyer wouldn't have been extended to Cotmanhay at a higher frequency. There may be other examples but that's a local one to me that I can think of

Yourbus also took on Doyles in 2013 and succeeded having competed on one of their only commercial routes, then, when Doyles had gone over, picked up the contracted services. Of course, it was awful for Doyles and I don't see much good from it but I understand that Yourbus saw an opportunity and it paid off

Until now Trent/Arriva have run in partnership with each other on X38, running two buses in turn every 20 minutes (for example, from Derby, Trent departures are 09:40, 10:00, then Arriva are 10:20, 10:40, and so on). In 2022-23 Trent's reliability has been sloppy to say the least, and on one or two occasions have cancelled two round trips in a row leaving Arriva to pick up the pieces

With the £2 government cap on fares neither Trent or Arriva will be cheaper than one another, however it does feel like Arriva are wishing to compete on reliability. They must have seen Trent's reliability as a window to make more money, as I can't imagine any other reason why they've gone against the agreement. In my opinion it should encourage Trent to either step up their game or admit they can't and withdraw from the service

It is interesting to see you use the word sloppy. I'd call it letting high standards slip. One only has to look at Wilko (shop) to see what happens when you take your eye off the ball.. Customers may want to trade with you, but, they don't and they walk away into the shops of gleeful competitors. Many companies say how their customers love them, but do they? Why don't people deal with certain businesses, a d what would it take for them to at least "try". I don't see bus competition as any different to say Sainsbury's versus Aldi versus Tesco. The problem always comes when the customer walks away. Then you find a profitable business becomes more break even. You find businesses cannot sell, not carry on, and they disappear.

 

[Deerfold]

Yourbus also took on Doyles in 2013 and succeeded having competed on one of their only commercial routes, then, when Doyles had gone over, picked up the contracted services. Of course, it was awful for Doyles and I don't see much good from it but I understand that Yourbus saw an opportunity and it paid off

Until Yourbus itself collapsed a few years later, leaving fewer bidders for those contracted services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2024 ==

They might not be able to compete with single fares, however they can compete with daily/weekly/monthly tickets. With trentbarton having mango and zigzag which can be used on all their services including x38. Arriva having a separate ticket zone currently for x38 to the rest of their derby operation so if you have an arriva derby monthly ticket your unable to get on x38 without having a different ticket.

Trentbarton also (on current plans) run back from Derby over 5 hours later on a Friday and Saturday night.

 

[Numpt33]

Bus competition is a good sign that the industry has recovered in some areas. New market entrants are a symptom of market confidence, which is very welcome after 4 years of pessimism and lockdown heck.

Obviously this is not going to be a national picture, but a few local areas. I think Stoke is languishing from very major decline, with First being the usual leader in shrinking the market.

 

[Travelmonkey]

Stoke seems to be a bit of a dark zone in general with D&G and First in a good state. I am intrigued to see how Buslink do; we all know that Boddice's previous work grew Midland Classic to a powerful entity. Sadly I have noticed myself and from opinions of other passengers and staff Diamond has nosedived in quality,

Trent barton having late services is a key sticking point for not only the X38. I have found myself on a last or penultimate V3 or Villager in recent time. Having a last bus at 22:15 for the last V3 and 23:15 for the last Villager means I can get back to Burton, even though it's a slightly more circuitous route.

 

[johncrossley]

Has there ever been competition between operators* on quality in the bus industry? National Express are doing that for coaches, not claiming to be cheaper than Flixbus/Megabus but better, and I think it's fair to say they are. But on local buses?

Possibly the competition between Harry Blundred's Thames Transit and Oxford Bus Company might fit into that category. Originally Thames Transit competed on frequency using small minibuses but in the early-mid 90s, Thames Transit replaced their small minibuses with double door Iveco minibuses and dual door Dennis Darts but maintained high frequencies. Their printed timetables were high quality as well, although they did attract criticism towards the end for replacing proper timetables with lists of departure times using the 12 hour clock.

 

[SSmith2009]

I think "bus wars" are needed post-demic as there are many operators who seem to be getting too confident, knowing that they are the only operator on some markets, knowing they can get away with poor reliability

Have to agree competition is good and needed to give some operators a wake up call.

As part of the Leicester Buses partnership, Arriva, First and Centrebus all agreed to withdraw from competing routes with some having increased frequencies.

If anything this part of the the partnership has made reliability worse on some routes with them now being single operated routes and operators using single deckers on the busiest routes that previously ran with full decker allocations which means passengers all too often left behind.

 

[Dai Corner]

Don't passengers just get on the first bus going to their destination unless they hold a ticket only valid on a rival operator?

 

[Alex 2901]

I have noticed that near me there is competition brewing again on bus routes, namely Arriva being both a target and an agitator.

The routes in question are:

• X65 vs X66 Tamworth-Lichfield
• 
  
• The incumbent Arriva has the X65 & 765 on this corridor; it has also launched a new ticket and kids go free deal
• 
  
• The X66 is run by a new company called BusLink; I've been told by a driver this is a commercial route and it aims to take some Arriva market share.

Having taken a trip out to Lichfield and Tamworth yesterday, aiming to take a ride on the X66 (didn't manage to), I can offer a few observations on the corridor as a whole:

Timetable:

Both operators provide two buses an hour - Arriva run a 765 an hour via Whittington and London Road, and an X65 an hour via the A51 and Boley Park, whilst Buslink run two X66s an hour via the A51 and London Road.

First and last buses easily go to Arriva:

The first X66s are at 0725 off Lichfield and 0800 off Tamworth, whilst the first 765 is at 0600 off Tamworth and 0635 off Lichfield, with the X65 at 0640 off Tamworth and 0705 off Lichfield.

The last X66 is around half 5 off both Tamworth and Lichfield, whilst the last X65 is around 1915 off both sides, with the last 765 being 2125 off Tamworth and 2155 off Lichfield.

Whilst there are four buses an hour during the day (roughly between 9am and 2pm off both sides), the peak timetable, especially in the afternoon is rough on both operators.

The X66 leaves Lichfield at 1410, with the next one then at 1530... running on the exact same time as a 765.

The X65, on the other hand, leaves Lichfield at 1420 and 1440... with the next one being at 1620.

In an ideal world, Buslink would've tried to fill that 50 minute gap, instead of running at the same times as the 765, but I'm not sure how feasible that would be, as the timetable looks to have been designed around other commitments (either that or there's a bus sat in Lichfield for half an hour after completing an X66 round trip.)

As for Arriva... it looks to me as if they've increased the running time at peaks (good) without trying to increase the number of buses, leaving an extremely lopsided timetable from the Lichfield side, as there's a noticeable difference between the 765 and X65 in journey time -

Tamworth side seems to be roughly every 30 minutes even at peak times though

It was encouraging to see passengers actually trying out the X66, but it really doesn't look great when a bus pulls in displaying "X66 Lichfield", then goes onto the 32 (Lichfield City Circular), having pulled onto the 765/X65/X66 stand first, with nearly an hour's gap in the service.

I see why they've done it that way, but it's almost handing passengers to Arriva, when everyone decides to get the X65 instead.

Quality

I can only speak for their operation on the 63 (Cannock to Uttoxeter), but as its using the same fleet as that (five or six Scania K230/Wright Solars), I would easily had the quality point to Buslink - the 765/X65 are usually a disparate mix of Citaros, Versas and Pulsars, with the odd appearance from the two ex-Manchester E300s, from experience - as they've done a pretty decent job in refurbishing most of the Solars. 71-73 at least have full Midland Classic spec interiors, with USB chargers and next stop announcements, whilst 74 & 76 are still Cardiff Bus spec, but do have the next stop announcements fitted.

Loading wise, the X65 didn't seem particularly encouraging, with about ten people on throughout the journey - a small number for Boley Park, but the rest for Tamworth, though a single trip is hardly representative of the whole service.

How this will play out is anyone's guess IMO, but given Arriva saw off Central Buses on the same corridor around 5 years ago (the Xpre55 vs 765/X65), I'm not sure I can see the corridor being big enough for two operators, personally.

 

[markymark2000]

Has there ever been competition between operators* on quality in the bus industry? National Express are doing that for coaches, not claiming to be cheaper than Flixbus/Megabus but better, and I think it's fair to say they are. But on local buses?

Isn't this why Stagecoach Gold got introduced on a number of services? For example the Chester-Liverpool 1, because as well as it having potential for growth with higher spec buses, it was also a corridor that they competed on with Arriva so the Gold element was competing on quality. Similarly Arriva Sapphire came about on the Chester - Connahs Quay 10 at the same time that Townlynx were competing against the 10 with their T1. Could be coincidence on both services but this is what seemed to happen.

 

[Robertj21a]

The X38 domination by Arriva is largely as a result of regular poor performance by Trentbarton. You don't have a jointly operated route when a 'Really Good Bus Company' often fails to run their trips.
It's quite right that Arriva should now operate the route - and Trentbarton should politely withdraw.
.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Don't passengers just get on the first bus going to their destination unless they hold a ticket only valid on a rival operator?

In my experience, no. A large number of them are so ignorant/thick/stupid/set in their ways* (delete as appropriate) that they can stand at a stop and let multiple buses go past them, only to then board a bus and go to a destination served by all of the previous buses. Not too dissimilar to how people used to give me puzzled looks when I said I was working until midnight, before responding "but buses don't run after 6pm do they?"

 

[Bletchleyite]

In my experience, no. A large number of them are so ignorant/thick/stupid/set in their ways* (delete as appropriate) that they can stand at a stop and let multiple buses go past them, only to then board a bus and go to a destination served by all of the previous buses. Not too dissimilar to how people used to give me puzzled looks when I said I was working until midnight, before responding "but buses don't run after 6pm do they?"

I think calling people thick (or the other options) for that is below the belt, to be honest - what it tells me is that buses are too complex to use in the UK.

And there are plenty of places where buses do finish around 6pm.

 

[Lewisham2221]

I think calling people thick (or the other options) for that is below the belt, to be honest - what it tells me is that buses are too complex to use in the UK.

And there are plenty of places where buses do finish around 6pm.

Short of having a staff member stood at every bus stop, asking each passenger where they are going and telling them what bus to get on, I don't really know how much more simple it would need to be. When multiple buses, even from the same operator, can pass a stop, displaying the same destination, with only the route number being different, and people can't grasp that the bus is going to the same place.

As for the latter point, yes, they do. However, a decade ago (where I was working) they didn't. Some estates etc didn't get an evening service, but a lot of the area did. Sadly, "buses don't run after 6pm do they?" became a self fulfilling prophecy, as due to people holding that belief when they did run, not enough people used the service and it was this removed.

As for the wording, thick was perhaps a bit harsh. The rest of the options I stand by.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Short of having a staff member stood at every bus stop, asking each passenger where they are going and telling them what bus to get on, I don't really know how much more simple it would need to be. When multiple buses, even from the same operator, can pass a stop, displaying the same destination, with only the route number being different, and people can't grasp that the bus is going to the same place.

Buses often travel by several routes, some much longer than others, thus getting on a bus that has your destination on it without knowing the route can be very unwise.

I'd recommend, for instance, that if taking a train to Watford Junction from Euston that getting on the one with Watford Junction on the front would be an extremely poor choice, unless you happen to enjoy an hour facing sideways rather than 20 minutes in a proper seat.

 

[Lewisham2221]

I understand all of that. But the information is out there. In fact, these days, it's probably easier than ever to find (unless you are reliant on a paper timetable, granted, but that isn't the people I'm talking about). Just because somebody caught "that bus, that time" before or "my friend told me this bus" doesn't mean the system is complicated.

Buses often travel by several routes, some much longer than others, thus getting on a bus that has your destination on it without knowing the route can be very unwise.

I'd recommend, for instance, that if taking a train to Watford Junction from Euston that getting on the one with Watford Junction on the front would be an extremely poor choice, unless you happen to enjoy an hour facing sideways rather than 20 minutes in a proper seat.

 

[Idon'tKnow]

How much is BusLink UK Limited charging on their X66? The day ticket for 3.30 on the X65/765 will surely be hard to beat.

Also worth mentioning that the late night journeys (after 19.15) on the 765 are funded by Staffordshire County Council.

 

[Numpt33]

I think calling people thick (or the other options) for that is below the belt, to be honest - what it tells me is that buses are too complex to use in the UK.

And there are plenty of places where buses do finish around 6pm.

I won't dispute that some passengers are thick, but I think part of the issue is the absence of any marketing in those areas to say "runs after 6pm" at a time passengers would see it.

Just a tiny bit of effort gets huge rewards. Nobody will use a service they don't know exists. Passengers standing at a bus stop are sort of advertising. No passengers waiting is an "anti-advert"

 

[43055]

I have noticed that near me there is competition brewing again on bus routes, namely Arriva being both a target and an agitator.

The routes in question are:

• X38 Derby-Burton on Trent - Arriva have totally recast their timetable and now route it out of Derby Bus station. Trent Barton still continues to use the same routing and times although that could change,
• 
  
• X65 vs X66 Tamworth-Lichfield
• 
  
• The incumbent Arriva has the X65 & 765 on this corridor; it has also launched a new ticket and kids go free deal
• 
  
• The X66 is run by a new company called BusLink; I've been told by a driver this is a commercial route and it aims to take some Arriva market share.

My question for the forum is what do you reckon to competition like this and do you have any interesting examples from your area?

Certainly interesting times ahead. Whenever I see the X38 they are busy but a doubt 2 operators fighting it out will be sustainable. If trent do withdraw I wonder if they will keep the nightbuses in some form?

Don't passengers just get on the first bus going to their destination unless they hold a ticket only valid on a rival operator?

When Yourbus competed with Arriva in Derby on the 1/1A to Alverston I would get the first bus into town but going out always go for the Yourbus as they both left the bus station at the same time and was cheaper.

 

[SSmith2009]

I won't dispute that some passengers are thick, but I think part of the issue is the absence of any marketing in those areas to say "runs after 6pm" at a time passengers would see it.

Just a tiny bit of effort gets huge rewards. Nobody will use a service they don't know exists. Passengers standing at a bus stop are sort of advertising. No passengers waiting is an "anti-advert"

Centrebus do this with some routes timetables

One example: service 20 (Leicester to Braunstone) is operated by Centrebus Mon-Sat with Vectare operating Sunday journeys via a different route.

Centrebus have produced the roadside publicity for service 20 and added the Sunday service timetables with notes that it's Vectare running journeys via a different route.

 

[Travelmonkey]

The arriva X38 has had to leave passengers behind on several occasions as they have a "no standee" rule on thar route, hopefully this will ease some of the pressure. Although knowing how bad Burton traffic can be I can see a convoy creating the old parable "wait ages for a bus & 3 come at once"

 

[158756]

Competition between commercial and subsidised buses is making news in Bedfordshire.

Row over competing commercial and subsidised bus journeys - routeone

Grant Palmer has accused Bedford Borough Council of wasting money by providing subsidised bus journeys competing with its commercial offering.

www.route-one.net

https://www.facebook.com/sharer.php...eting-commercial-and-subsidised-bus-journeys/
A dispute has broken out between Grant Palmer and Bedford Borough Council over what the SME bus operator says is the local authority’s use of taxpayers’ money to provide subsidised journeys that compete with its commercial departures on the same service.
That allegation is vehemently denied by the council. Grant Palmer held a contract to provide service 25 between Bedford and Rushden for over 11 years until expiry on 31 July, during which time the business purchase four new buses for it.
Ahead of that end date, Grant Palmer saw scope to register some sections of those journeys commercially, albeit not over the full length of route. That position was forthcoming via its investment in the service when contracted, the operator adds.
It says that commercial journeys were duly registered with the Traffic Commissioner in good time, with printed timetables posted in advance and Bedford Borough Council consulted fully regarding the change.
Despite that, the SME operator says that the local authority retendered service 25 in its entirety “over the top” of the Grant Palmer registration. The contract was awarded alongside several others to Stagecoach East, which as a result is running some journeys at or around the same times as Grant Palmer’s commercial provision.

It seems Grant Palmer have either withdrawn from or lost the contract to operate route 25 from Bedford. They have then registered a commercial service offering a very limited number of journeys, Monday-Friday only over only part of the route.

The council have then tendered the route to Stagecoach without altering the timetable, so there are now two route 25s following the same route (on the parts Grant Palmer runs) sometimes departing at almost exactly the same times. Whatever caused the contract with Grant Palmer to end must have been very short notice because Stagecoach haven't been able to get the service registered in time, so these buses are currently taking passengers for free.

Grant Palmer are now talking about legal action against the council for "inhibiting competition".

I don't see how you can say deregulation and competition are working for the benefit of passengers here.

Mod note: links to external sources must be accompanied by a relevant quote

 

[Simon75]

Stagecoach have short workings on the 84 Crewe to Chester (between Crewe and Nantwich), and D&G the 84X (about 5 minutes quicker)
These were introduced when Arriva abandoned Crewe in 2023

 

[SSmith2009]

Competition between commercial and subsidised buses is making news in Bedfordshire.

Row over competing commercial and subsidised bus journeys - routeone

Grant Palmer has accused Bedford Borough Council of wasting money by providing subsidised bus journeys competing with its commercial offering.

www.route-one.net

It seems Grant Palmer have either withdrawn from or lost the contract to operate route 25 from Bedford. They have then registered a commercial service offering a very limited number of journeys, Monday-Friday only over only part of the route.

The council have then tendered the route to Stagecoach without altering the timetable, so there are now two route 25s following the same route (on the parts Grant Palmer runs) sometimes departing at almost exactly the same times. Whatever caused the contract with Grant Palmer to end must have been very short notice because Stagecoach haven't been able to get the service registered in time, so these buses are currently taking passengers for free.

Grant Palmer are now talking about legal action against the council for "inhibiting competition".

I don't see how you can say deregulation and competition are working for the benefit of passengers here.

GrantPalmer have lost the tender...

GP previously held the tender for the service then added their own (non-contracted) journeys into the service to bolster it up but now they've lost the tender for the contracted journeys which have gone to Stagecoach.