Building New Stations Where Lines Intersect

[30907]

It's already a recognised (and easy AFAIK) interchange, well under 1/4 mile.

 

[Eagle]

It has the shortest official walking interchange time of any pair of stations: 9 minutes.

 

[noddingdonkey]

King's Cross to St Pancras - 1 minute according to the NRE planner.

 

[Kettledrum]

Newark on Trent is the obvious one for me - particularly if it involves a new flyover so the Nottingham to Lincoln line does not cross the ECML on a flat junction.

 

[yorkie]

King's Cross to St Pancras - 1 minute according to the NRE planner.

But the official interchange time is 30 mins.

The official interchange time can be very different to the theoretical time from station entrance to station entrance!

 

[MrPosh]

Plans keep being discussed to build a viaduct type arrangement linking Bradford Interchange to Forster Square, with a station in the middle to replace both. Can't see it ever happening though.

This is an idea that's been kicking around for years. If the Midland Railway couldn't manage it Bradford Council aren't gonna be able to do it now! (Ironic really - Bradford city centre literally is a hole! There's virtually nothing between the two stations and hasn't been for years since it was all demolished to make way for the shopping centre than never was.)

I've never really seen the point in this really. Both stations' main destination is Leeds and I can't imagine there's that much crossover traffic from the Dales onto Halifax and beyond. Unless the idea is just to run the East Coast service into the Interchange (which has better onward links, but is no more central).

I think this project would be several £bn down the list of things that need doing to Bradford.

 

[leytongabriel]

Bethnal Green to provide a zone 2 interchange between the Enfield Town WA soon to be Tfl route and the eastbound Central line. Though a through service via South Tottenham would be nicer . Or even Shoreditch High St between WA routes and ELL if we were in dreamland.

 

[Eagle]

I've never really seen the point in this really. Both stations' main destination is Leeds and I can't imagine there's that much crossover traffic from the Dales onto Halifax and beyond. Unless the idea is just to run the East Coast service into the Interchange (which has better onward links, but is no more central).

To me it's always seemad more a case of "hey these two lines are pointing towards each other, they look like they should be joined up", without thinking about what (if any) new journey opportunities or service improvements it would create.

 

[mr_jrt]

I've never really seen the point in this really. Both stations' main destination is Leeds and I can't imagine there's that much crossover traffic from the Dales onto Halifax and beyond. Unless the idea is just to run the East Coast service into the Interchange (which has better onward links, but is no more central).

I think this project would be several £bn down the list of things that need doing to Bradford.

The original intent by the Midland railway back in the day was to create the 3rd mainline between England and Scotland. Had they managed it, then Bradford would have become much more important than Leeds, economically.

So in that regard given how things panned out then it's not important, but the problem is that this is a once-in-several-generations opportunity to create a very useful link that only doesn't exist because of some historical quirks when it was last possible to do so. I suspect that building it now will make far more interesting options possible several years down the line that just won't be viable otherwise. Not to mention, selling off the two existing stations for development should help offset the costs dramatically. Having a station located in a shopping mall will also do wonders for footfall. Never underestimate how lazy people can be.

 

[ChilternHenry]

Is there a case for a West Hampstead interchange, I.e Chiltern mainline, wcml, tube

 

[D365]

Bethnal Green to provide a zone 2 interchange between the Enfield Town WA soon to be Tfl route and the eastbound Central line. Though a through service via South Tottenham would be nicer . Or even Shoreditch High St between WA routes and ELL if we were in dreamland.

How does that all work? Or is it just me D:

Is there a case for a West Hampstead interchange, i.e. Chiltern mainline, wcml, tube

Wouldn't that be CML, Jubilee/Metropolitan through, NLL and MML/Thameslink? An interchange station was proposed a few years back, Chiltern suggesting to move the NLL and MLL over to their CML. Was put on the back burner with uncertainty over what was then operated by Silverlink Metro, but interchange at present isn't supposed to be too bad, I hear...

 

[Eagle]

but interchange at present isn't supposed to be too bad, I hear...

Three separate stations, but they're all right along the road from each other not more than a couple of hundred metres apart. Besides I can't see how merging the stations would work without moving some of the lines and/or demolishing the buildings between the three stations, which seems like too much work for a small problem.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

What are these plans for westgate you speak of? i have never heard of them?

I think it was proposed in a previous HLOS (can't remember which though- as far as I know it's still planned though I'm not sure it's funded) to move the station a short distance towards Leeds so that there would be space for a turnout to a bay at the Donny/London end. This would allow Huddersfield services to turn back without having to occupy the though-platforms and shunt to the sidings in the turnaround. The capacity freed by this would also allow the Knottingley/Featherstone loop services to run up the curve to Westgate rather than terminating at Kirkgate as they do at the moment (other than one or two early/late services). Naturally, new (presumably more spacious) buildings would be provided along with a wheelchair-friendly footbridge.

 

[ess]

Ravensthorpe: Why are there no platorms on the Wakefield line?

 

[Buttsy]

Ravensthorpe: Why are there no platorms on the Wakefield line?

Historical: L&Y considered a Thornhill station, a mile further down the line towards Wakefield, to be a better bet for custom. The LNW line to Dewsbury was added later and the station was built to tap into Thornhill traffic.

The current Ravensthorpe station is not that close to the village and only gets about 60 passengers a day (based on the last footfall figures) so I wouldn't think it would be viable on a BCA basis to put platforms on the Wakefiled line, it's more likely that Thornhill would be re-instated as it probably has the better potential.

 

[Welshman]

Maybe have a Gloucester station on the main lines for the fast XC services to call.

There was.
They did.
It was called "Eastgate"

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Ravensthorpe: Why are there no platorms on the Wakefield line?

Buttsy explained this pretty much as I was about to. I have a vague memory of seeing an old WYPTE 'Aspirations' map from around 1992 that included plans for a re-opened Thornhill. I can only assume that these plans were overtaken by bigger and more deserving projects like the Airedale/Wharfedale electrification and Brighouse reopening.

There are plans for a large amount of house-building in the vicinity of Ravensthorpe though, so it might be worth looking at again in a few years time.

 

[Welshman]

The original intent by the Midland railway back in the day was to create the 3rd mainline between England and Scotland. Had they managed it, then Bradford would have become much more important than Leeds, economically.

So in that regard given how things panned out then it's not important, but the problem is that this is a once-in-several-generations opportunity to create a very useful link that only doesn't exist because of some historical quirks when it was last possible to do so. I suspect that building it now will make far more interesting options possible several years down the line that just won't be viable otherwise. Not to mention, selling off the two existing stations for development should help offset the costs dramatically. Having a station located in a shopping mall will also do wonders for footfall. Never underestimate how lazy people can be.

The Midland in its day certainly had a fascinating plan to avoid the congestion of Leeds by diverting its main line to Scotland through Thornhill, Cleckheaton Spen, Low Moor and across Bradford to Keighley and Skipton, and it would have bound to have benefitted Bradford and its being the commercial centre of the woollen industry.

But I think it's debatable how much it would have detracted from the importance of Leeds in the longer term. Leeds would still be the hub of a larger rail network, as it has been since the amalgamation of the old City and Central stations in 1967, and the Wellington and New stations before then. And how many ex-Midland through trains are there today from St Pancras to Glasgow via the Settle & Carlisle, that go via Leeds let alone Bradford?

And although the through Bradford link might look good on a map, I can't really see much potential traffic to justify it. Huddersfield and Halifax to the Aire Valley is almost as quick via Leeds, and any Keighley-Manchester traffic seems to be more than adequately provided for by the excellent hourly bus service over the moors to Hebden Bridge station. Also, I think to close the two Bradford stations and replace them with a more centrally-located station in the shopping precinct would be a retrograde step as it would mean giving-up the excellent bus/train interchange facility that the appropriately-named "Interchange" now provides.

 

[Buttsy]

There was.
They did.
It was called "Eastgate"

Technically, Eastgate was on a loop off of the mainline and was closed around 1976. The local council were grateful of this as it removed some level crossings which meant cars could get around unhindered...Later, a road was built over part of the route... Ahhhhhhhhhhhh, transport planning in the 70s and 80s...:roll:

 

[eps200]

The Midland in its day certainly had a fascinating plan to avoid the congestion of Leeds by diverting its main line to Scotland through Thornhill, Cleckheaton Spen, Low Moor and across Bradford to Keighley and Skipton, and it would have bound to have benefitted Bradford and its being the commercial centre of the woollen industry.

But I think it's debatable how much it would have detracted from the importance of Leeds in the longer term. Leeds would still be the hub of a larger rail network, as it has been since the amalgamation of the old City and Central stations in 1967, and the Wellington and New stations before then. And how many ex-Midland through trains are there today from St Pancras to Glasgow via the Settle & Carlisle, that go via Leeds let alone Bradford?

And although the through Bradford link might look good on a map, I can't really see much potential traffic to justify it. Huddersfield and Halifax to the Aire Valley is almost as quick via Leeds, and any Keighley-Manchester traffic seems to be more than adequately provided for by the excellent hourly bus service over the moors to Hebden Bridge station. Also, I think to close the two Bradford stations and replace them with a more centrally-located station in the shopping precinct would be a retrograde step as it would mean giving-up the excellent bus/train interchange facility that the appropriately-named "Interchange" now provides.

I assume if your new building you can simply build in a bus station, it is very much in the future proofing bin bloody expensive but you just know if it doesn't happen 30 years on someone will headdesk.

 

[Welshman]

I assume if your new building you can simply build in a bus station, it is very much in the future proofing bin bloody expensive but you just know if it doesn't happen 30 years on someone will headdesk.

Sorry, but I've read your comment five times now and still have not understood your gist.
Could you possibly re-state your argument with words and punctuation I could understand, please?

 

[LexyBoy]

Here:

I assume if you're building a new station, you can simply build in an integral bus station. It is very much in category of future proofing and bloody expensive, but you just know that if it doesn't happen 30 years on someone will headdesk.

Not so sure myself. Bus stations seem to need reconfiguring/relocating quite frequently, and who knows what will be going on in 30 years.

Besides, a couple of shelters and bus stop signs is hardly going to break the bank if done later is it.

 

[TheWalrus]

Maybe have a Gloucester station on the main lines for the fast XC services to call.

There was.
They did.
It was called "Eastgate"

in better days then

 

[DynamicSpirit]

London has a fair number of places where lines cross without a station. The one that most astonishes me is where the new East London Overground passes under the main Southeastern lines out of London Bridge. Considering TfL have only just rebuilt that Overground line, that seems a massive lost opportunity. Especially as if they'd put an interchange station there, it would have made the New Cross overground branch unnecessary, giving some savings to offset the cost of the station.

Of the other places, one that most strikes me for significant new travel opportunities is the Bakerloo/Metropolitan line crossing between Wembley and Harrow.

The Chiltern/Bakerloo crossing just north of Wembley Central would also be a good candidate for a station, but only if the frequency of stopping services on the Chiltern line increased.

East Putney/Putney is another one - I've had to change there a few times and it's quite a walk between stations. However, that has the problem that the crossing is in a far less convenient location than where Putney station is currently situated.

 

[Eagle]

There's also Shoreditch High Street which is directly above the Central line. I believe it was designed so that a future interchange could be built, but it's not likely to happen any time soon because the disruption and cost of adding a station to a line in tube tunnel is too much.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I'm a fan of the idea. I like to use the example of the Goblin - a line that crosses lots of others, but only connects (in station) at Barking, Blackhorse Road and Gospel Oak. I'd build a station everywhere lines cross and close several as a result. At the eastern end Woodgrange Park, Wanstead Park, Forest Gate and Manor Park could become one large station...

The Goblin is a very good example of lost travel opportunities.

Personally, if I had a big enough pot of money available, I'd look at converting it to DLR-style operation, allowing stations closer together so you could open interchange stations without needing to close so many of the existing ones along the line. However that would require finding (probably, building) another line for the freight services.

 

[Darren R]

Although the through Bradford link might look good on a map, I can't really see much potential traffic to justify it. Huddersfield and Halifax to the Aire Valley is almost as quick via Leeds, and any Keighley-Manchester traffic seems to be more than adequately provided for by the excellent hourly bus service over the moors to Hebden Bridge station. Also, I think to close the two Bradford stations and replace them with a more centrally-located station in the shopping precinct would be a retrograde step as it would mean giving-up the excellent bus/train interchange facility that the appropriately-named "Interchange" now provides.

Bradford Council calculate that it would cost £140 million to build what they call Bradford Cross Rail, although they themselves admit that this is a "conservative estimate." That's an awful lot of money to save people what is no more than a ten minute gentle saunter across town (it takes me half that time though.) And of course people are quite likely to pop into a shop and spend some money en route.

Should anyone be interested here is the link to the Cross Rail pages of the Bradford Rail Users Group:

http://bradfordrail.com/cross-rail/

The benefits they cite are:

• Improved public transport usage across the city
• Improved access to the North of the district from the Interchange
• Bypass the congested Leeds Station
• Create spare freight capacity
• Create a Bradford / Leeds commuter loop
• Increase tourism to the city via rail, with quick reliable services
• True rail competition for Long rail distance services
• Regenerate the neglected Westfield site
• A starting point for further heavy and light rail services across the district.

 

[fairysdad]

I've often wondered if there was a case for a new station in Dorchester where the lines meet as there are quite a lot of people who change between the two (and I imagine there often has been). Of course, it wouldn't happen, there's no room and it would take the stations further away from the town centre than they already are.

 

[Holly]

Hartford

A new station could replace both Acton Bridge and Hartford stations as well as providing a transfer between WCML and Cheshire lines. Although perhaps a parliamentary service at Acton Bridge would then be needed for legal reasons.

Not only that it would be moved off (an impossible to remedy) two-track section onto quad-track and hence allow for timings that would avoid slowing down CC trains if and when HS2 comes to Crewe.

Bad as they are, even the poor proposed HS2 timings to Liverpool will rarely be achieved in practice unless the bottleneck caused by Hartford Station is eliminated by moving to nearby Weaverham.

Electrification of Acton Bridge to Northwich would provide an alternative solution.

 

[30907]

London ...where the new East London Overground passes under the main Southeastern lines out of London Bridge. Considering TfL have only just rebuilt that Overground line, that seems a massive lost opportunity. Especially as if they'd put an interchange station there, it would have made the New Cross overground branch unnecessary, giving some savings to offset the cost of the station.

But the New Cross branch was already there (so the savings would be marginal) and provides all the connectional opportunities except Deptford/Greenwich/Maze Hill.