• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Brown out and about

Status
Not open for further replies.

glynn80

Established Member
Joined
1 Jun 2008
Messages
1,666
Once the regulatory structure has been implemented, Treasury control is effectively lost until they introduce a new regulatory system. The BofE and the FSA are independent of the government. There is some debate as to whether this is a good thing

Treasury control is not lost at any time, Parliament still retains ultimate sovereignty over the financial regulatory regime in this country. The Treasury also retains reserve powers over the Bank of England authorising direct control (these are explained within the Bank of England Act 1998) and appoints the board of the FSA.

It was not in the manifesto, but Transport spokesman were saying that this meant renationalisation. I have, somewhere, a letter from Clare Short to this effect

Clare Short was not a spokesperson for Transport when the manifesto was released. She was relieved of her position as Shadow Transport Secretary in 1996, Blair moving her to International Development.

I do not doubt that in the years prior to the manifesto release, renationalisation was banded about (I believe Blair made such representations at the 1995 party conference) but for Old Timer to claim "it was a Labour Manifesto commitment" and it was "confirmed as late as the night before the General Election" is frankly wholly untrue.

For the last couple of quarters, the official estimates that have been produced have been promoted beforehand as showing that the recession is over, only to actually show that it had been deepening. I do not know if this has happened with this set, but forgive me for being sceptical.

This is completely false. The recession has not been deepening since the first quarter of 2009. The GDP growth statistics for the past three quarters are as follows:

  • 2009 Q1: -2.4%
  • 2009 Q2: -0.8%
  • 2009 Q3: -0.2%

This clearly shows the economy of the UK, although not out of recession, has been steadily moving towards positive GDP growth. Both your's and Old Timer's statements regarding a deepening recession are completely false.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Failed Unit

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2009
Messages
9,771
Location
Central Belt
This is completely false. The recession has not been deepening since the first quarter of 2009. The GDP growth statistics for the past three quarters are as follows:

  • 2009 Q1: -2.4%
  • 2009 Q2: -0.8%
  • 2009 Q3: -0.2%

This clearly shows the economy of the UK, although not out of recession, has been steadily moving towards positive GDP growth. Both your's and Old Timer's statements regarding a deepening recession are completely false.

Lets compare these with any other G20 nation then <D:lol:
 

CosherB

Established Member
Joined
23 Feb 2007
Messages
3,041
Location
Northwich
As a friend of mine who knows about these things puts it:

There is a huge, massive, colossal UK structural financial deficit. In the current financial year the UK govt will spend £127 for every £100 that it is able to raise in taxes, and borrow the extra £27.

Now, the thing is, the proportions are correct in my last sentence but the actual numbers are somewhat bigger. The £27 isn't £27, it's near enough £180,000,000,000.

The £180 billion is not the total of government spending - that's just the government spending over and above the tax-generating capacity of the economy. The actual total of government spending is £680 billion a year. If you want to see where it all goes there is a really handy graphic done by The Guardian here (it's a pdf so you need Acrobat Reader).

On that chart you can see most of the cost of the bank bailout - "Financial Stability - £85.5 bn". The National Audit Office, by jiggery pokery I haven't fully worked out yet, makes that number higher, possibly as much as £131 billion. But either way that leaves a massive chunk of deficit, around £50 billion at its minimum, not accounted for by the bank bailout. Furthermore, the bank bailout is (probably) over. The banks that have taken the State shilling are actually making lots of money again now, starting to repay its state IOUs and in the cases where the state has taken part or total ownership, it directly benefits from the profits of the banks. The £50 billion (or £80 billion) is the structural deficit. And that's continuing to ratchet up, day by day. The structural deficit is built into the fabric of the economy and happens every year unless structural changes are made, whereas the cost of the banking bail-out was a one-off.

Why is there a structural £50 billion deficit, then? Because although NuLab continued with the previous Conservative public spending plans for the first few years of the Blair government, they subsequently tore up the rule book and declared every year of bubble growth to be 'normal and sustainable' and basically spent as if there would never be another recession ever again. Of course, Gordon had not abolished boom and bust at all, no-one ever will .That is why you have to balance the books over the life span of the normal economic cycle. You are allowed to have Government borrowing in the bad years, but you repay it in the good years. That was suppoed to be 'Prudence' Brown's 'golden rule'. He said it was.

But the way he cheated was by continually redefining the length of the economic cycle - basically by predicting that there would never be a down turn, and then massively let rip on public spending. Short term popularity and warm fuzzies at Labour conferences.

So, now even taking the banking bailout out of the numbers, the nation spends more than it earns by around £50 billion a year, or looked at another way, one thousand million pounds a week. That's why the government hasn't enough money.

Its punitive tax increases are not designed to increase the tax take - they go beyond the demosntrated point of maximum yield on the Laffer curve and will reduce the tax take by disincentivising people. The point of the recent tax hikes has been electoral calculation - an attempt to force the Conservatives into saying they will reduce tax rates (in order to maximise the actual tax yield). That if course is what Balls and Brown in particular regard as establishing a 'political dividing line'. Obviously it is intended to motivate their own core vote, but they also believe the average voter may be suckered into believing that a) it's all the fault of the banks, and b) you can make up the difference by taking the rich.

You can't. The numbers just don't work. As the IMF will shortly be along to remind us, as it will in Greece, the only way out is to reduce publc spending to below the amount of tax that the economy can yield .Usually allied to a big burst of inflation to devalue the accumulated debt. Of course, even if Gordon get back in he will then be able to blame the nasty IMF for cutting expensiture so it won't be his fault at all. If the Conservatives get in and reduce public spending, the Nu Lab political calculation is that will give them a great platform for opposition sniping with a view to saying "Tory cuts - what did we tell you? for five years and then coming back into power at the election after next.

Frankly, if there was ever an election to avoid winning, this is it.


And of course because of this awful financial mismangament, we will soon be hit by massive inflation. My friend continues:

The timing of the inflation phase is not yet clear. When it comes it will be substantial. There is a strong argument for converting at least part of UK cash savings into things which are a better hedge against inflation. Stocks of companies with strong overseas earnings; commodities, etc.

The difficulty is that a lot of the smart money has been piling into these things for some time, which is why the prices of oil ETFs are high, and one reason why gold has had such a good run over the last year or so.

Some people try to hedge by currency trading but that's hard to call, way beyond my expertise. I would buy Deutchmarks if there were any, but the Euro is a different kettle of many fish. I think the dollar is probably a better bet than sterling, but don't invest anything on my advice. Some people say oil is currently overpriced due to speculation, and maybe it is in the short term, but there may be an attraction in (effectively) buying all your future fuel now at pre-inflation prices. I dunno.

Diversify, I guess, and don't forget about tinned food.
 

Old Timer

Established Member
Joined
24 Aug 2009
Messages
3,702
Location
On a plane somewhere at 35,000
And, as http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8479639.stm shows, at last this is true. And I see the graphs back up Glynn's claims about non-deepening, so i stand corrected. So one-all I think
I think you will find things have moved on somewhat since that was posted, and of course the BBC being overtly in favour of Labour is spinning the "recovery" like mad.

The brutal truth is that just about every economist worth their salt are pointing out that this is almost without doubt a blip caused by the car scrappage scheme, together with the usual Christmas shopping spend, and that the forecast for the next few months is actually quite gloomy.

Interesting that "Technically a recession" was being talked down on the basis of ONS figures, and those who said there was going to be a recession were derided for using them, yet the self same people laud them when it suits them, clutching at a 0.1% "techincally growth" with the same desperation as a drowning man clutching a straw.

To read what some write here one would believe we can all now go out and spend on new cars and summer holidays.
 

Failed Unit

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2009
Messages
9,771
Location
Central Belt
I love some of the things quoted today such as:

Labours policies such as the Car Scrappage scheme and the VAT reduction have helped pull the country out of recession the Conservatives do nothing approach would mean we would still be in recession (something we will never know).

Now that both of these have now gone what will they do if we slip back into recession. Some people may have spent money in December to beat the VAT rise and that money is not their to spend in January.

I certainly don't think we are over it yet, too many people are losing their jobs still. I know that the jobless total reduced last time, but I am very cynical, I wonder if the number of people on sickness benefit increased. Likewise people who lose there job can't claim straight away, they need to wait for their reduncy to run out - I know I have been there, what was I described as economically inactive as I was out of work but not costing the state anything!
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
18,054
Location
Reston City Centre
Sorry to change the subject and talk about trains (!), but you have to wonder whether Brown can do right in some people's eyes. At least he's a Prime Minister taking a regular scheduled service (not the Royal Train, not a private car, not a helicopter), yet he just gets criticised further on here.

I'll stand aside whilst the conversation goies round in circles arguing points that have nothing to do with comparing a 321 to a 365 though (is there any actual evidence for the switch being at his insistance BTW or just more gossip?)
 

CosherB

Established Member
Joined
23 Feb 2007
Messages
3,041
Location
Northwich
I love some of the things quoted today such as:

Labours policies such as the Car Scrappage scheme and the VAT reduction have helped pull the country out of recession the Conservatives do nothing approach would mean we would still be in recession (something we will never know).

Now that both of these have now gone what will they do if we slip back into recession. Some people may have spent money in December to beat the VAT rise and that money is not their to spend in January.

I certainly don't think we are over it yet, too many people are losing their jobs still. I know that the jobless total reduced last time, but I am very cynical, I wonder if the number of people on sickness benefit increased. Likewise people who lose there job can't claim straight away, they need to wait for their reduncy to run out - I know I have been there, what was I described as economically inactive as I was out of work but not costing the state anything!

The VAT reduction was blind panic by a government grasping at straws. It's cost a fortune, and now it's finished (as it must at some time) it's having a negative effect on the economy. Very silly move on Brown's part.

And the car scrappage? Government funding for mostly foreign car makers in a time when transport should be going green (trains, maybe?). What the 'eck was that about?

The sooner this bunch of dangerous clowns go the better.
 

Metroland

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2005
Messages
3,212
Location
Midlands
The brutal truth is that just about every economist worth their salt are pointing out that this is almost without doubt a blip caused by the car scrappage scheme, together with the usual Christmas shopping spend, and that the forecast for the next few months is actually quite gloomy.

Not to mention the vast amount of money created out of nothing in the shape of quantitative easing.

Of course the whole reason Britain has not recovered as fast as other countries, is the over reliance on financial services and property. In fact the whole Labour boom was based on ever rising property prices, with the middle men taking their cut, and owners spending the equity on goodies.

The idea you can keep making money out of exactly the same bricks and mortar for ever more, is fools gold. Especially when the people at the bottom of the food chain are getting into silly amounts of debt - usually the young, already under pressure with huge students loans.

Naturally this is also appalling social policy. Half the population are shut out of any property ownership at all, often relying on the short term, and expensive rental market. Thus making the property speculators (mainly the buy to letters, legalised under Labour) rich in the process.

It's no surprise that huge block of flats in the centre of cities like Leeds stand empty. Why? Because speculators simply bought them up as an investment and left them standing. In Bournemouth, when social housing was built, at a knock down price, it was simply snapped up by speculators, who then sold it a month or so later at a tidy profit.

In beautiful parts of the country (such as north Norfolk, Dorset, Devon and so on) some towns have stocks of 40% of homes which are second homes or investments, left empty. This in turn having a huge effect on schools, pubs, shops and other local services, which simply closed down as they couldn't any long cover their costs.

In fact it was concluded by influential think tanks that sectors of the population (especially the young, people in rural areas, in skilled crafts and trades and unskilled/semi skilled workers) have been in recession for years. The poorest 10 per cent of households have seen their weekly income fall for the past four years. It is now £9 lower than in 2002, and at the same level it was in 1999. Over the same period the richest 10 per cent of homes have seen their incomes rise by £37 a week. Government figures have showed the number of Neets - teenage dropouts who are not in employment, education or training - has soared to record levels. The analysis by the Office for National Statistics also shows that Britain has one of the biggest poverty gaps in Europe, ranking ninth out of 27 countries in terms of income inequality.

Despite what people often believe about the South East (say compared to the north) is the greatest areas of disparity are found in these areas.

The disproportionately wealthy are becoming segregated from the rest of society, creating a deep polarization. Some cities in Britain have areas where more than half of all households are struggling on the poverty line.

Central Liverpool, Bradford, Blackburn and Middlesborough, as well as parts of Birmingham and Belfast, all have over 60% of their residents earning less than £10,000. Vauxhall in Liverpool has a mean household income of just £9,100
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top