British Rail ticketing before Oyster PAYG

[station_road]

I have found image in a book of a leaflet

Shows West End zone as bright yellow, City Zone as blue (royal blue?) with a yellow and blue striped overlap. Says Starts Oct 4th. (year not shown but think it was 1981).

Front of leaflet says : Any journey in West End or City zone 20p, Any through journey both zones 30p

Zone 2 was light green (more like lime green, not current pastel shade), zone 3 (3a, 3b, 3c) orange

The LT Museum have a copy of a poster showing the same thing, says 1981

https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/collections-online/posters/item/2007-8697

 

[TrenHotel]

It went roughly like this...

1981 - City and West End fare zones introduced - precursor of today's zone 1 - as part of short-lived Fare's Fair scheme
1983 - Travelcard (LT only) introduced, five fare zones across all of Greater London (with three bus zones)
1984 - One Day Travelcard introduced
1985 - Capitalcard introduced offering BR travel as well as LT
1986 - One Day Capitalcard introduced
1989 - Travelcard gains validity on BR and replaces Capitalcard
1991 - zone 6 created
2003 - Oyster starts to be phased in
2004 - Fare zones abolished on buses
2010 - Oyster accepted on most National Rail too
2014 - Contactless accepted

The really frustrating period was in the years leading up to 2010 when Oyster was not available on most National Rail south of the river yet many NR lines north of the river were accepting it, along with all TfL modes. The rail companies believed people would dodge their fares, and originally insisted on "Oyster Extension Permits" which you would set on a travelcard if you wanted to travel beyond your zones. It didn't last.

 

[Snow1964]

There is a 5 year trend about ticket types used in London on page 28 of attached TfL Board report

For 2017/18 to 2021/22 split is
Contactless 30% 37% 46% 53% 62%
Oyster PAYG 36% 34% 29% 31% 25%
bus & tram 5% 5% 4% 7% 4%
Travelcards 28% 25% 21% 9% 9%

travelcards crashed from over 20% when pandemic started, presumably because many rail commuters had travelcards. There is a second table with 5 most recent quarters and appears travelcards have stabilised at 9% of fares

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/s19742/csopp-20230322-item05b%20Customer%20Service%20Operational%20Performance%20Report.pdf

 

[stuu]

IIRC one of the London Boroughs (or maybe more) that were Tory controlled took the scheme to court on the basis that their ratepayers were paying into it / subsidising it, but had commensurately low services, esp tubes, for their citizens to benefit from and thus the scheme should be declared illegal. I think the case was heard by Lord Denning who agreed with this and thus it was ruled illegal - in a ruling that was seen as a highly 'political' judgment at the time - well in the media I read then anyway (mind you everything in the 1980s seemed 'highly political' )

Bromley. Because there's no tube in Bromley, was their argument. Which somehow won

 

[WelshBluebird]

Ideally you'd make an assessment about whether a Day Travelcard would be worthwhile before setting off on your day's travels.

Of course that is still how it works in the rest of the UK even to this day.

Bus services have just about caught up in the last couple of years in many places (e.g. here in Bristol we now have the "tap on tap off" ticketing system which means you get capped like an Oyster would in London, but that is only for bus journeys). Before that, and for places that haven't caught up, you'd still need to decide if buying a day ticket was worth it or not before you start travelling.

And rail services basically haven't caught up at all, even in places that have payg ticketing in place (again, the Bristol area is a good example where we have a payg scheme in place, but the capping is basically only for end to end journeys between two specific stations in a 7 day period from Mon - Sun, so it essentially just emulates a weekly season ticket). So you do still have to decide if buying products like the Bristol area freedom travelpass (essentially a day ticket for the rail and bus services in the Bristol area) is worth it.

 

[stuu]

The really frustrating period was in the years leading up to 2010 when Oyster was not available on most National Rail south of the river yet many NR lines north of the river were accepting it, along with all TfL modes. The rail companies believed people would dodge their fares, and originally insisted on "Oyster Extension Permits" which you would set on a travelcard if you wanted to travel beyond your zones. It didn't last.

I had forgotten about those. What did you actually have to do? I only needed one once as I had a 1-4 monthly but I can't remember what I had to do

 

[Joe Paxton]

I had forgotten about those. What did you actually have to do? I only needed one once as I had a 1-4 monthly but I can't remember what I had to do

Re Oyster Extension Permits...

If you had a season Travelcard on your Oyster and you were starting a journey within the zones covered by your Travelcard but heading to a destination outside the zones covered by said Travelcard (but still within the overall zonal system) you were supposed to set an Oyster Extension Permit on your Oyster card.

The Oyster Extension Permit basically meant your PAYG credit was debited the appropriate 'entry charge' for the station where you started your journey - meaning you'd be penalised if you didn't touch-out at the end of your journey, and end up with an incomplete journey charge. If however you did touch-out, you'd be charged the appropriate extension fare.

It confused everyone and it didn't last long. It was something that was insisted upon by the London area TOCs and implemented with some reluctance by TfL.

 

[Gonzoiku]

Travelcards were only introduced in the early 1980s - I can remember buying my first one at Borough, a colourful pre-printed card numbered something like 0000019 (I think I still have it somewhere*). The excitement of being able to travel around all day on tubes and buses without having to pay again!

Prior to their introduction, almost all tube and bus travel was single tickets, one per journey. Tube stations had ranks of ticket machines, each issuing a single value, with a list of the stations each was valid to on the sloping top of the machine.

In the late 1950s or early 60s, my family were staying with my grandparents, long term Londoners, and we went from Finsbury Park to Kew Gardens for the day. Coming home, for some reason we caught a North London line train instead of the tube, and were given a dressing-down by a ticket inspector for using LT tickets on a BR service. My grandmother gave as good as she got, and as far as I recall, we didn't pay extra, or have to get off the train.

In the late 1980s, I lived in Camden Town, and usage of the North London line was very low - dusty 2-car units (EPBs? HAPs?) with hardly a soul on them in the daytime.

(*edit - I knew I'd still have it)

View attachment 130469

At roughly the same time, as a season ticket commuter on what was the Bedpan line (before electrification), I was required to have an LT Photocard for the LT part of the journey. 9301J, as I recall, so in the first 100000 issued. I wonder what the numbering has reached now?

GZ

 

[Springs Branch]

At roughly the same time, as a season ticket commuter on what was the Bedpan line (before electrification), I was required to have an LT Photocard for the LT part of the journey.

Presumably the season ticket was for travel to Moorgate / Barbican / Farringdon. Was the season valid on Metropolitan/Circle trains from Kings Cross St Pancras LU at times when through Widened Lines trains were not running?


Another slight ticketing oddity in that era was the Waterloo & City line, when it was operated by BR Southern Region / Network SouthEast (before LU took over in 1994). Threads on this topic come up from time to time.

As I understand it, through tickets originating at BR stations were issued to destination "Bank", as opposed to London BR (the latter having the validity of today's London Terminals, at some kind of supplement to the normal fare to Waterloo. These tickets were not valid on any indirect Underground routes, even at times of week (late evenings, Sat pm & all-day Sun) when The Drain did not operate. Presumably there was a dedicated BR barrier line at Bank station, and LT Photocards were not needed there with BR season tickets, but it was not part of "the Zones".

I remember reading that only stations on the BR Southern SW Division issued tickets with the Bank add-on, and the supplement was quite steep for the short additional mileage involved. Maybe BR thought those bowler-hatted City types could well afford to pay a premium; poorly-paid Articled Clerks and young women from the typing pool might have disagreed (and caught a bus).

I wonder how far out from London you could still get tickets direct to Bank? Probably not a problem from anywhere in the SW suburbs or stockbroker belt (Farnham or Haslemere to Bank seasons likely sold in significant numbers), but how about from Portsmouth or Bournemouth, Salisbury or Exeter Central?

 

[Ken H]

@Springs Branch were there not tickets from the south east to U1. I remember travelling from the Midlands with tickets to a U destination. May have been U123 as i was commutung to Stonebrjdge Pk Stn.

I got into bother when I was late teens so about 1977. i got a ticket at the ticket office at Headstone Ln to Walthamstow Central. But i didnt check the ticket (Edmonson). I thought the best route was to catch a BR train to Euston, then Victoria Line. But the inspector at Euston saw the ticket had 'via Maida Vale' printed on it. So he let me off. I have always thought that a strange routing.

 

[station_road]

As I understand it, through tickets originating at BR stations were issued to destination "Bank", as opposed to London BR (the latter having the validity of today's London Terminals, at some kind of supplement to the normal fare to Waterloo. These tickets were not valid on any indirect Underground routes, even at times of week (late evenings, Sat pm & all-day Sun) when The Drain did not operate. Presumably there was a dedicated BR barrier line at Bank station, and LT Photocards were not needed there with BR season tickets, but it was not part of "the Zones".

I recall tickets only being checked at the Waterloo end on the W&C in BR days (in and outbound), with Bank being open but having ticket machines. The Underground barrier line was separate.

Tickets from the Southern Region to London were still issued to London SR at that time, not London BR, but not sure about tickets to Bank.

 

[Cantab26]

The Tories promptly did away with the Fares Fair scheme by somehow declaring it "illegal"

IIRC one of the London Boroughs (or maybe more) that were Tory controlled took the scheme to court on the basis that their ratepayers were paying into it / subsidising it, but had commensurately low services, esp tubes, for their citizens to benefit from and thus the scheme should be declared illegal. I think the case was heard by Lord Denning who agreed with this and thus it was ruled illegal - in a ruling that was seen as a highly 'political' judgment at the time - well in the media I read then anyway (mind you everything in the 1980s seemed 'highly political' )

Bromley. Because there's no tube in Bromley, was their argument. Which somehow won

Oh, for goodness sake - enough with the conspiracy theories! This was not the reason that the courts held the scheme to be unlawful and to suggest otherwise is fanciful.
The scheme fell down because of the specific statutory arrangements in place for how the London Transport Executive was to conduct its operations, including revenue accounting and a requirement to make good a deficit in the year next following.

The decision to reduce fares by 25% blew a hole in the revenue budget which - on its face - put LTE in breach of its legal duties.

The response from LTE and the Greater London Council was that the GLC could make up the shortfall by providing a grant to LTE which would be paid for by a precept levied on Greater London ratepayers. It was argued that LTE could take account of the expected grant in conducting its affairs.

The problem with this argument was two-fold:

1. Whilst passenger transport executives outwith Greater London had express statutory power to take in account expected grant funding in conducting their operations, there was not an equivalent provision for the LTE.
2. In exercising its power to levy a precept and make a grant to LTE, the GLC was first required to have regard to LTE’s own duties to manage its operations in accordance with the statutory requirements.

In these circumstances, both the decision by LTE to reduce fares and the decision by the GLC to make a grant funded by a precept on the rates were held to be unlawful.

There was a further point regarding the GLC’s fiduciary duty to the ratepayers when exercising its functions. The effect of the LTE and GLC decisions was not only that the ratepayers of Greater London would have to pay an additional precept to fund the lost fare revenue; they also had to cover the loss of a significant amount of rate support grant which occurred as a result of the implementation of the decisions. The practical result of this was that the rates doubled overnight.

In this regard, the fact that the scheme had been a manifesto pledge was not a relevant consideration under the statutory arrangements for LTE’s funding and budgeting which were confined to economic considerations only.

 

[30907]

I got into bother when I was late teens so about 1977. i got a ticket at the ticket office at Headstone Ln to Walthamstow Central. But i didnt check the ticket (Edmonson). I thought the best route was to catch a BR train to Euston, then Victoria Line. But the inspector at Euston saw the ticket had 'via Maida Vale' printed on it. So he let me off. I have always thought that a strange routing.

It was an all-tube route (historically at least) and therefore through-ticketed.

 

[stuu]

Oh, for goodness sake - enough with the conspiracy theories! This was not the reason that the courts held the scheme to be unlawful and to suggest otherwise is fanciful.

That is of course the grounds it was found unlawful under, however it is not a conspiracy theory to say it was Bromley who brought the court case or that their major complaint was having to subsidise the tube.

 

[calopez]

I got into bother when I was late teens so about 1977. i got a ticket at the ticket office at Headstone Ln to Walthamstow Central. But i didnt check the ticket (Edmonson). I thought the best route was to catch a BR train to Euston, then Victoria Line. But the inspector at Euston saw the ticket had 'via Maida Vale' printed on it. So he let me off. I have always thought that a strange routing.

At Kensington Olympia, we had pre-printed Edmonson card tickets to places like Watford Junction, Harrow & Wealdstone and Bushey & Oxhey; all were routed 'Earl's Court & Warwick Avenue'. I remember getting into an argument with someone who stated they were travelling to Watford Junction via Euston - and to whom I issued an Underground ticket to Euston plus a hand-written paper ticket from Euston to Watford - but who expected to pay the cheaper 'via Warwick Avenue' fare.

 

[Tester]

At Kensington Olympia, we had pre-printed Edmonson card tickets to places like Watford Junction, Harrow & Wealdstone and Bushey & Oxhey; all were routed 'Earl's Court & Warwick Avenue'. I remember getting into an argument with someone who stated they were travelling to Watford Junction via Euston - and to whom I issued an Underground ticket to Euston plus a hand-written paper ticket from Euston to Watford - but who expected to pay the cheaper 'via Warwick Avenue' fare.

An interesting example of journeys which are massively more convenient today.

I was the signalling maintenance supervisor covering Olympia in the early 80s, and it truly was a backwater!

(Although on the upside it did have a Motorail terminal!)

 

[StephenHunter]

(Although on the upside it did have a Motorail terminal!)

Wasn't it also intended for Eurostar use?

 

[bicbasher]

Up until 2009, I'd buy point to point returns to London Terminals as I'd use Charing Cross or to Croydon Stations as these were cheaper than a travelcard. If I went further and to to more stations, then the One Day Travelcard would be easier. In those days, I also had a Network Railcard (Network Card it was called in the 90s) which gave me savings even on weekdays for London only journeys.

The introduction of London zonal fares, followed by Oyster PAYG and contactless has rendered paper tickets from my local London NR station which is on the Overground network has led to paper tickets being redundant. Even if I go outside London, it's cheaper for me to use PAYG to East Croydon and then paper tickets from East Croydon when I travel to Brighton for example than a point to point from my local station.

 

[Tester]

Wasn't it also intended for Eurostar use?

I'm not aware of such, although of course Eurostar trains ran through regularly to and from North Pole depôt.

 

[jfollows]

Wasn't it also intended for Eurostar use?

See, for example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightstar_(train):

Beyond London services[edit]​

• Plymouth to/from Brussels
• Swansea to/from Paris
• Glasgow Central to/from Paris and Brussels

The Plymouth and Swansea trains would each have been formed of a single seven-car sub-set, and the Glasgow train of two seven-car sub-sets. The Plymouth and Swansea trains would be diesel hauled beyond London by a class 37/6 and Generator set, with the Glasgow train electric hauled. At London Kensington Olympia, the Glasgow train would be split and the two sub-sets attached to the respective Swansea and Plymouth trains to form one train to Paris and one to Brussels. They would be electric hauled from London onwards.

The trains would all be electric hauled by a class 92 locomotive from London to Dollands Moor Freight Yard where a second class 92 would be attached to the rear of the train. This was to meet the Channel Tunnel safety requirements that, in case of emergency, the train could be split in half and each half driven out independently.

 

[mike57]

I'm not aware of such, although of course Eurostar trains ran through regularly to and from North Pole depôt.

I also thought it was an emergency terminus for Eurostar in the days before HS1, if Waterloo should be unavailable for some reason. Passengers off at Olympia, and carry on to the depot in the event of major disruption.

 

[Vespa]

When started visiting London in the late 80s, there used to be a credit card sized travelcard with a magnetic strip with zones on it, this gaveclots of travel options, when I was in Epping I had to have a season ticket which is similar I think it was in green and had to use a photocard with it, I was given a plastic wallet to keep both together and show it at the gate, I seem to recall that after three trips daily trips I got my money back as single fares were expensive.

Oyster cards made travel much easier and more flexible.

 

[Irascible]

IIRC travelcard colour depended on how long it was valid, but it's been a long time since I bought one.

 

[Joe Paxton]

IIRC travelcard colour depended on how long it was valid, but it's been a long time since I bought one.

Green was a weekly
Grey was a monthly or longer
Gold card stock for an annual

There was different stock for rail only season tickets and for Travelcards, but with the colour bands as above.

At some point (possibly when the Capitalcard became the Travelcard?), the design of LT-issued Travelcards became aligned with that of BR-issued Travelcards (albeit with a few minor differences).

 

[Sm5]

nothing changed for me.

I hate using oyster, payg with a passion.. endless fare issues, overcharges and disputes. No big brother watching your moves, scanners not working and assumptions of guilt..

I still use paper travelcards, with my little one with friends and family makes it very cheap. no disputes, no issues, no problems.

When that ends, so does my london rail travel use.

 

[StephenHunter]

You can put Travelcards on Oyster though.

 

[PeterC]

nothing changed for me.

I hate using oyster, payg with a passion.. endless fare issues, overcharges and disputes. No big brother watching your moves, scanners not working and assumptions of guilt..

I still use paper travelcards, with my little one with friends and family makes it very cheap. no disputes, no issues, no problems.

When that ends, so does my london rail travel use.

I have had far more issues with paper travelcards not being read. I never got through a year without needing two replacements.

 

[Surreytraveller]

N

You can put Travelcards on Oyster though.

Not One Day Travelcards you can't

 

[leytongabriel]

I have a map from 1984, I don't think the Epping Forest area was initially included in the zones. It wasn't on that one.

I think a special agreement was made with Essex County Council that came in later.

 

[Mikey C]

For a long time I had a paper annual Zones 123 Travelcard, so would be constantly taking this flimsy bit of card out of it's wallet, to stick through ticket barriers. Amazingly they managed to last a year without replacement!

I was happy when I was able to put my annual ticket on an Oystercard, though would still have a paper "Gold Card" which I had to show when buying discounted tickets with it.

Now I don't travel so much so use PAYG on my Oyster, and have a Network Card on my phone...